1958 FE intake utilizing 4100 carburetor, vacuum leak at base

[Brushwolf]

Have a 1969 390 here topped with early 1958 machined chamber heads and matching 1958 4 barrel factory intake, but we are using a 1961 Ford 4100 carburetor in place of the Holley that would have been on a 1958.

Finally got it running last night and realized there is a vacuum leak at the base at the left front corner. This is because the corner of the 4100 carb base sticks out further than the horizontal carb mounting surface of the intake. I looked at a core 1960 and a core 1962 4100 carb on the shelf and all 3 carbs have this same issue where the base can not fully sealed to the early factory intake.

Comparing the 58 intake with an Edelbrock intake it is noticeable that the Edelbrock has a wider surface only at that left front corner which would alleviate this vacuum leak - except for the base gaskets that comes with the carb kit does not jut out to cover that area either. So basically it would leak at that corner even if used with the newer Edelbrock intake.

The outer perimeter of the base gasket does not extend to the outer perimeter of the 4100 carburetor base at only the left front corner where the 4100 has this little kickout at the left front corner of the base plate.

The 58 intake manifold casting for the carb base mounting surface does not extend out to the perimeter of the carb base at this corner either. So there is a triangular-shaped vacuum leak about the size of a pencil diameter in area. Sounds like a vacuum cleaner when running, unless plugged with a fingertip.

Has anyone run into this before and if so, how did you resolve it? Even if we swapped intakes it would still leak vaccum at this corner, although it would leak a lot less. Is there a special 4100 base gasket for this or do you have to make your own?

[LOWRIDER]

Have you tried a carb spacer on the manifold? Right one might seal things up. Have to look at those too. The ones that run a vacuum port at the rear may not seal up either. Tried one on a yblock and had a big leak from that area because of the way the manifold is made. Switched to an aftermarket one and all was good.

[KULTULZ]

How in the world did you come across early 1958 FE matching heads and intake (cast iron)?

The early FE required a special carb spacer and the one for the FORD CARB was unique as well as the gasket(s). There was another spacer used for the HOLLEY and CARTER 4V.

Can you show a top down photo of the intake and CASTING/DATED CODE INFO? The CASTING NUMBERS (intake) should be a seven character numeral display unlike the casting numbers we are more familiar with.

FORD re-designed in 1960/1961 and used a 1961 intake for earlier service replacement. By any chance is there any ID on the FORD CARB?

You need carb base gasket PN C2AZ 9447-E (available re-pro). The correct spacer is not going to be easy to find.

[craig]

I have had several sets of the EDC-C heads in the past. They were 72cc chambers and 30 degree intake valves, probably tough to find today. As far as your 4100, they all used a special spacer to seal them up. The C3OZ 9A589C is still available as a repop, even has a vac port at the back for the pcv. Only problem in some applications is that it is 1" thick. Many, many years ago (at age 16, I made one out of 1/4" masonite and cut fairly thick gaskets for both sides. It didn't burn up and I didn't have any vac leaks

[scicala]

Just an FYI, the 352 FE in 1958 Fords originaly came with one of two carburetors. A 4100 Autolite, or a vacuum secondary Carter AFB. No Holley in '58 on the 352.

Sal

[Gene F]

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Originally Posted by LOWRIDER

Have you tried a carb spacer on the manifold? Right one might seal things up. Have to look at those too. The ones that run a vacuum port at the rear may not seal up either. Tried one on a yblock and had a big leak from that area because of the way the manifold is made. Switched to an aftermarket one and all was good.

I have a streetrod, and it has a carb spacer bolted to the intake, and the flange on it is bigger. Might be a simple fix.

[KULTULZ]

1958 FORD-BIRD 352 H4 - ID.NO. 5752303 - SERVICE PN B9AZ 9510-A

What I am trying to get across is the problem most likely lies in the original carb spacer.

You most likely will need to find the original design or fabricate if indeed it is an original cast iron 58/59 intake..

[Brushwolf]

Just woke up, was up all night. About 20 years ago I bought 2 1958 Fairlane 500 4 doors along with the 69 390 2v engine. One 58 was a clean TX body whose engine and transmission had been stripped from it for a 58 retractable restoration according to the guy I bought the cars from. He had done the motor swap and ended up with the TX body and stuck engine from the retractable.

Laying loose in the engine bay of the TX car was presumably the engine removed from the retractable. But it had a 4 barrel intake (no carb), and a stick bell and flywheel. So I removed those from the stuck engine and also pulled the heads. Noticed the chambers were like none I had seen before and so looked up the numbers and it came back as the machined chamber heads.

Since I then had a set of four barrel heads and intake and not a ton of money, I had the heads checked for cracks and rebuilt with hardened seats, resurfaced, etc. Figured this was a budget way to convert the 390 to four barrel using what I already had and think my intention was to use this engine in a 58 retractable that I have still not done anything with and so the intake, heads and valve covers would be essentially correct, though it was a 69 390 short block underneath it all.

Decades passed and about a year and a half ago I decided to rebuild a Z coded 61 Galaxie convertible. My oldest son always like that car. So the motor was drafted for use in that instead of a 58. Top ends of 58 and 61 look similar anyway and the original 390 in the Sunliner had been replaced with a very tired 1964 352 before I got it.

So we took the 390 and bolted it up to a 1962 T10 I had bought years ago as well for another project. Put it all in the Sunliner and went through various Ebay sourced 4100 carbs for the best match. The bases of the 3 carburetors are all identical in footprint. IDR if that carb code came back as a 352 and we switched to jets from a 390 when the carb was rebuilt. Tag on this one is hard to read, the other two carbs are C0 and C2 tags though..

I took some pics and will send them shortly after I shrink them down to transmittance size, phone has way to high resolution so they will not load unless file size is diminished.

[Brushwolf]

Intake casting number is 5750034, below that are "70", then a large dot, followed by a "C" and a little further right a large numeral "1"

[Brushwolf]

I recall having some trouble finding a head gasket that did not intrude into the combustion chamber and think I ended up using the early steel shim type gasket cuz Fel-Pro's and other later composition gaskets jutted out into the combustion chamber which I thought was probably asking for trouble.

I am giving this car to my son and he is considering swapping out the old heads and intake for Edelbrock aluminum components later down the line, but for now we just want to get it drivable.

Did a prelube routine with drill until oil reached the rocker arms and then the 20 minute flat-tappet cam break-in without any problems, except for a leaky oil pressure gauge fitting and the vacuum leak under discussion.

[Brushwolf]

October 3rd 1957 is my interpretation of that date code and the numeral "1" indicating first shift..

[Brushwolf]

Here is a picture of the flat spacer up against carb bottom. I believe this to be the original one cuz the later spacers were tapered. This spacer is flat and the angle correction needed for the carb to sit horizontal is already cast into the intake. The later spacers with the vacuum nipple were raised (much thicker) in the rear compared to the front. Tapered, to put it another way..

[Brushwolf]

Here is the later tapered spacer, notice it covers the hole a little better, but still leaves it open. (There is epoxy in the offending area of the carb base plate now in both these pics. Decided to try that first.)

[Brushwolf]

Here is the left front corner of the 58 intake followed by pic of same corner of an Edelbrock intake..

[Brushwolf]

Forgot upload button..

[Brushwolf]

And finally as requested, the casting number pic

[Brushwolf]

Originally Posted by Gene F

I have a streetrod, and it has a carb spacer bolted to the intake, and the flange on it is bigger. Might be a simple fix.

I will go take a look at a couple spacers I have here. My son also ordered some Fel-Pro #1901 4 hole gaskets which appear to cover the corners better than the carb kit gaskets. Thing is being the intake has nothing supporting it underneath, that alone probably won't work. Larger flange flat spacer might if it is not too thick. Not a lot of apparent hood clearance as it is now.

[KULTULZ]

To me, this indicates the OEM SPACER was required -

All of this info was removed from my two period issues of the 49/59 MPC and both intakes (there were two it seems) were replace by a later 1961 PN.

My opinion is that you will need the correct spacer or fabricate one to allow for whatever FORD tried to do there.

ADDENDUM - 2nd THOUGHT -

It is just one intake carb flange ear done in this manner, correct?

If you find a spacer that will cover that carb pad and seal the throttle plate of the carb, you should be OK. You need a spacer (phenolic preferably) at least 1/4" thickness. You don't want the carb riding directly on the intake carb pad due to heat soak.

Don't focus on the EDEL intake and base gasket as they were trying to hide a problem with their 4V CARB PAD design.

[KULTULZ]

- - C3AF-R -

[KULTULZ]

See if the ILL shows below -

It is a photo of a 5751087 intake of the same period. It has a base gasket sitting on the carb flange. See how it fits perfectly? If you find an aftermarket gasket that fits the same (same throttle bore size), you should be good.

Same on any spacer you find. The bore sizes (have to be the same - on carb also), not larger. You want the base cover to cover the carb pad as shown. That should cure your problem.

Is the car MT or AT?

Can you measure one of the intake manifold throttle bore sizes as info on these early intakes is limited.

Possibly on the LF foot or LS of the front fuel bowl of your present carb, it may be stamped 1.08 or 1.12. See if that is there.