59 AB engine rebuild

[Macdozer]

Thanks to everyone's help, I have successfully removed the engine and transmission from my 1936 panel delivery with a 59AB engine.

It's going to be a long process, working full time during the week slows things down.

I figured I would keep all of my engine related questions in this thread.

The engine is stuck and this past weekend I realized that I would have a very hard time removing the pistons if I couldn't rotate the crankshaft. From looking at the engine I thought that it wasn't the pistons stuck but the valve lifters that were causing the problem because of how rusty they are.

I took off the timing cover and removed the cam shaft gear and then I was able to rotate the crankshaft.





Now I am trying to remove the oil pump and it doesn't seem to want to come out. I removed the one bolt at the bottom of the oil pump (If engine is upside down)



Is there anything else I need to remove to get the whole pump out?

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Take a big pipe wrench and grab the big end of the pump, try to swist the pump back and forth. Don't worry about hurting the pump your going to replace it anyway. DON"T brake the pump off you'll be in deep s--t Walt

[Binx]

For stuck lifters I removed the pistons, crank and all valve assemblies. I soaked each lifter from both sides with the acetone/trans fluid (50/50 mix) for about a week. Some loosened, some didn't. I heated the rest with a propane torch then more 50/50. Few more still stuck. I got impatient and drove the rest out with a 1/4" brass drift next to the cam lobe. I did end up breaking two (Johnson style) lifters doing this. They seem hard, but they will shatter.

Lonnie

[Ol' Ron]

The first thing you want to do is get a good quality engine stand with an exhaust manifold adapter.. This will insure your and the engines safety. Now, you have to decide right now what you plan on doing to this engine and it's application and what you expect from it. THis is going to be expensive if you makes mistakes taking it apart. For instance, it has floating bearngs and they usually last for ever, but are very expensive. When you pull the rod caps make sure they go back on the rod the way they came off. Rempve the bearings and tape them together, they may be reusable. However if you plan on replacing all this they have value. Good luck, and Keep em runnin.

[Capn John]

Get your self a STUMPY'S ENGINE STAND ADAPTER and save some later grief !
http://stumpysfabworks.weebly.com/st..._Products.html

[kegmon]

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Like Walt says... twist the pump with a big pipe wrench, but twist carefully applying a little upward pressure. I'd also advise removing the flywheel and the back gear cover plate and the idler gear (check other threads for how to do this...). that way you can keep an eye on the visible smaller end of the pump. You want to make sure to douse the smaller end with plenty of the acetone/tranny fluid (let that soak for a couple days with the engine right side up) and when you're twisting on the big end, make sure the small end is moving as well. It's pretty easy to bust the casing by twisting too hard, the large part of the pump will turn 360 degrees and seem to be freed up, but the smaller part will stay put... don't ask me how I know this.. mine came out in pieces!

[Macdozer]

I had to make a engine stand adapter on my own. All the ones I saw wouldn't work with the engine stand I have, it is bolted to the exhaust ports and everything is grade 8 bolts.

The plan with this engine is to just rebuild it to get it running, no performance want to keep it simple and original as possible. I will be taking it to a machine shop to get it cleaned and checked for cracks.

I guess my next step is to remove the flywheel and the back gear cover plate and the idler gear for the oil pump and then try to remove oil pump again.

[Ol' Ron]

Mac dozer
In this case the rods and bearings may be reusable. I save these for just such a rebuild and don't like using new bearings if I can find GOOD used ones. That goes for the 29A rods. Make sure the small ends are OK and only remove the bushings IF the shop has the proper tooling to replace them. Here again the wrist pin bearings rarely need replacing. These two items are the most expensive parts of an early rebuild.

[SofaKing]

Quoting Ol' Ron,
"In this case the rods and bearings may be reusable. I save these for just such a rebuild and don't like using new bearings if I can find GOOD used ones."

Ron, will you please elaborate on why you prefer good used bearings? I am new to flatheads and have a 1936 49B and another 59AB that I am tearing down to see which is in better shape for a rebuild. The 49B is apart and the rod bearings are inserts, they look a little odd from what I am used to in that they have what appears to be imbedded granular structures that do not appear to be from a foreign source, ie contamination. I have not yet checked the clearances pending a trip to the hot tank.

[Ol' Ron]

The 49/53 engines have lock in bearings, the same as most other engines. The pre 49 Ford engines all had floating bearings. This bearing does pt lock into the rod or anything else. It just floats between the rod and crank. These older bearings were mad from cadmium and silver in some cases. Heavy duty bearings were mad from a bronze alloy. These bearings MUST be fit to the crank. New replacement bearings are not of the same quality. Also NOS bearings have a tendency to flake from old age. so a good full flow oil filter is a plus for longevity. I cover this in my book.

[supereal]

The photo shows orange gunk. That is almost always a sign that water entered the engine some time. The front shows evidence of the same. If it was stored in the open, it could happen. Otherwise, there may be cracks in the block that allowed water in the jackets to flow into the pan.. Look at the inside walls of the lower end for holes or cracks. that is the usual place for freeze cracks. We have seen too many like that to believe that block is worth rebuilding.

[flatjack9]

There is no way to know whether the block is any good until it undergoes a thorough cleaning and inspection. Anything now is just speculation.

[Binx]

That engine looks like it has been through a storm flood.

Lonnie

[Ol' Ron]

Have it baked cleaned. Mag first to save your money

[53OlderThanMe]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

The 49/53 engines have lock in bearings, the same as most other engines. The pre 49 Ford engines all had floating bearings. This bearing does pt lock into the rod or anything else. It just floats between the rod and crank. These older bearings were mad from cadmium and silver in some cases. Heavy duty bearings were mad from a bronze alloy. These bearings MUST be fit to the crank. New replacement bearings are not of the same quality. Also NOS bearings have a tendency to flake from old age. so a good full flow oil filter is a plus for longevity. I cover this in my book.

I seem to remember someone was selling your book Ron. If anyone knows please pm me as I am just starting a rebuild of my 59A block. Already tanked and mag'd with a few minor cracks. Worst part has been getting the studs out .

[Ol' Ron]

Shelly at Mac VP is re doing it and it should be available soon.

[Macdozer]

How do you know that the bearings are good, what is the best way check them?

What if you find one bad bearing, can you replace just one and still use the other old ones?

[Macdozer]

What are the specs or where can I find what the allowable tolerance of the bearings and crankshaft are?

[JSeery]

Most rebuild manuals have that type of information and I would bet Ol Ron's book would be one of them! Were you interested in specific suggestions on the manuals or just the sources in general?

[Macdozer]

I have a few books, looking for all the info I can get. Believe it or not this engine came out of a panel delivery that was running 30 years ago and has been kept inside dry location ever sense, not sure what happened to it in that time.

What do most people do reuse old bearings or just put new ones in?

I still have to measure and see what I have. From info I found on van pelt web site I should be looking for a measurement of no less then 0.1085 for the connecting rod bearings.

[KiWinUS]

I like to use fine scotchbrite on all my bearings .
Cheers
Tony

[JSeery]

Not sure if the attached chart is helpful or not, see what you think. It is from the Ford Factory Refurbish Manual.

[Binx]

Check out this site. Left column, half way down. Words from JWL himself...

http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/flathead.htm


Lonnie

[Ralph Moore]

All good information. I'm planning on rebuilding a 38-41 motor soon, be nice if I could reuse a few things. It still has oil in it and turns over nice. I pulled a valve just to see how hard it would be and it came out easier than any old flathead I've ever messed with, kinda scared me! I plan to do only minimum needed and will probably pull sleeves as I have a new set of standard pistons for a 239.

[Ol' Ron]

When I started racing the Flathead back in the late 50's I had a good teacher when it came to fitting the bearings. There are probably several methods that work but the "Hammer" method seems to be the best. You might practice on an old bearing. Their are some tools that make everything work out better and one is a bearing mike or inside mike. this will accurately give the thickness of the bearing, which is important to getting the desired clearance. another important dimention is side clearance, not enough can cause hi oil pressure to damage the filit radius of the crank. This is called Cavitation erosion, and is prominent in cast iron crankshafts. too much can put too much oil on the cylinder walls. I use .020" for the bearings and .010" on the rods. The differance here is to relieve the pressure from the bearing before it gets to the crank radius. Non of this is all that necessary for a street engine, but when your turning 5+K all night long every week end, it works. Sorry to jump in here like this, but I don't need "H" beam rods, 21A and 29A rods work just fine.

[Macdozer]

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Thanks for the good information. I still have to finish taking the engine apart.
The one piston I removed the rod bearing doesn't look good but haven't measured it yet.

If I do find that I have one or to bad bearings, or rods can I just replace the one rod and bearing and still use the rest of the bearings if they are in good condition?

[KiWinUS]

Dont forget to get your KiWi-L100 cam....
Good luck !!
Cheers
Tony

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Dont forget to get your KiWi-L100 cam....
Good luck !!
Cheers
Tony

What's a ballpark for the regrind price?

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by JSeery

What's a ballpark for the regrind price?

PM sent
Thanks

[Cartravel]

I am just now going through the decision about replacing rod bearings. The 0.1085 is for bearings in an original engine. If the crank pins have been ground or the rods resized, a different number will apply for the oversized bearings. I have looked through many books, but have never seen a number for the thickness of original bearings with no wear. When original the rods were 2.360 and crank 2.139, which give 0.004 clearance with 0.1085 bearings. I would like to know the correct clearance for new bearings
Larry Young

[Macdozer]

Where would I be able to get bearings and a connecting rod? If needed

[Cartravel]

I have a question about rod bearing material. Why were the older bearings bronze or copper looking rather than the more conventional Babbitt. I think all the new bearing available or Babbitt. Which is better?
Larry Young

[Ol' Ron]

For floating bearings, you need the Bore diameter of the rod 2.220 for the 21A.
Bearing thickness times 2 for the bearing .108 x 2= .216
Crank throw 1.998 and add the crank to the bearings and you get 2.214 total clearance would be .006". Now when you mike the bearing thickness the .108 is very small .109/.110 is more likely. Then have the rods honed to 2.221"
I realize this is for the 21a rods, but it 's the same math for the 29A rods. I like to run these bearings alittle loose. Watch out for thr cranl fillit radius, it may drag on the bearing. Once the bearing is fit to the rod and crank scuff with #400 paper, wash in soap and water, akk assy lube and make sure the oil pressure is 40/50 lbs hot. With a good symthetic oil thay should last forever. I'm not sayint this is the only way to do it, it's the way I did it and it works. But the flathead is very forgiving and I'm sure others have good ways to do it as well.
Good luck.

[supereal]

Given the evident condition of that engine, it is likely not much can be reused, including the bearings. Have both the rods and crank carefully measured by a good shop to determine both the size and condition. We have encountered cranks with odd sizes on the same crank, probably due to regrinding at some time. When you order bearing sets, check each pair to be sure they match the size on the box. For some reason, we have recently received cartons with mismatched sets. Camshaft bearings are another critical place, as bad bearings will affect oil pressure.

[Macdozer]

Great info thanks for the responses. Does anyone know of any good shops with flathead experience in NH or VT?

[Macdozer]

Can anyone recommend a good style slide hammer to use when removing the oil pump idle gear?

[evans32]

I've had crank rod journal wear problems with Johson bronze floating bearings on a offset ground 4 in merc crank

[Ol' Ron]

For those using the 21A rods, I cut the flanges off the early 32-37 bearings. Some of these are cad.silver and run forever properly set up

[Macdozer]

Should this oil pan be flattened out at all or will it be fine to use it the way it is?





And what is the purpose of this what the arrow is pointing to?

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

Great info thanks for the responses. Does anyone know of any good shops with flathead experience in NH or VT?

Ezold in Manchester ct I believe
Frank Ezold
No Westchester
Out of town
I have addy at home

[Mart]

Hard to say whether the pan should be straightened, if you think you can improve it, give it a go. Don't go mad, a couple of well placed blows should get it straight enough.

The triangular piece is the road draft breather vent. Ford very cleverly incorporated it into the engine rather than as a bolt on. The vent aligns with a passage that has a tube fitted at the top, the open end of which is tucked right up under the inlet manifold.

Mart.

[Ol' Ron]

Walt Dupont is just an hour or so into Maine

[Macdozer]

Thank you for the info..

I am still in the process of disasemble. I have honed the clylinder walls very lightly and no ridge at top to speak of but the pistons seem to get hung up on the last ring, it will come out most of the way but the last half inch goes harder .I have got four out buy spraying with pb plaster and slowly working it out.
Is this normal?

Also a few of the rod bearing caps don't seem to want to go back on after removal am I doing something wrong?

[Ralph Moore]

They will go on, just pull them off and keep trying, have to be aligned straight to go on, sometimes you can rock them slightly from one stud to the other and they will go on.

[Macdozer]

Update I have removed all the pistons and oil pump. To remove the oil pump I had to remove the oil pump idle gear off of the cam shaft gear. The valve lifters are all stuck.

So now I am trying to remove the valves. Again I am working on a 59ab.

I thought I would have the valves for 48 to 53 as seen here
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...al_tools-1.htm

But don't see how to remove the valve sleeve or the locks, I don't see the locks at all.
Here is what I am looking at.

[JSeery]

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You pull the valve springs down and pull the top retainer out. From your last photo, you need to be up higher on the spring to get the spring down far enough. It is not that easy, takes some work. Then the guides and spring and everything is removed through the top as an assemble. This can sometimes be very difficult!!! If all else fails you can cut the valve in half and get the pieces out and then drive the guides out. Again, this whole process can be very difficult, took me most of a day on my last engine and I had to cut almost all of the valve. The valve spring keepers (locks) are located at the end of the valve in the retainers (next to the lifters). Have to have the springs loose to remove them. Sometimes they will come out if you raise the bottom of the spring and retainers up with a fairly fast jolt.

[JSeery]

Looked at the last photo again, you are moving the spring in the wrong direction!! It comes down from the top and the retainer with the tab with the hole in it has to be pulled out. I can't tell from the photos which valves you have, but the only real difference is straight on the stems vs tulip shaped and split vs solid guides. I would guess late model valves (straight with solid guides) but it's only a guess.

Edit: VanPelt says you can remove the retainer from the valve stem and take the valves out through the top, I have never done it that way. I now see that is what you were attempting to do. Looking again, you may have the tulip valves. VanPelt has a procedure for that spelled out also. In last photo did you attempts to pry the part up with a screwdriver that is sticking out below the retainer? It is either the sleeve that the keepers are in or the tulip end of a valve. Should be able to figure that much out fairly easily. If it is the sleeve the keepers should fall out if you pry it up (look at the figure for 51-53 valves).

[flatjack9]

Pulling the valve spring down will not release the guide lock. You need some special tools for doing the job. By the looks of the valve keepers, you have the mushroom stem valves. Makes things harder. There is a notch in the valve guide near the end of the small diameter that is meant to be engaged with a special tool. This is used to pull the guide down allowing the removal of the guide keeper. Then the assembly is pryed upward and out. There is also a tool that can be inserted in the hole in the guide retainer that can be used to pry the retainer out. Probably the easiest method.

[Binx]

Those are late 8BA rotator retainers and springs. How they get removed depends on if you plan on reusing the valves.

This is the crudest but quickest way if you don't plan to reuse the valves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8iGXa9H294

Lonnie

[Macdozer]

I don't see how I could have the mushroom style valves the valve spring retainer and the sleeve both rotate/ spin freely around the valve. The valve does not rotate. It seems like the locks might not be coming out or down.

[JSeery]

Need to tap/bang the sleeve around to get the locks to come out. Looks like you have the late model valve setup for sure if that is a sleeve.

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by Binx

Those are late 8BA rotator retainers and springs. How they get removed depends on if you plan on reusing the valves.

This is the crudest but quickest way if you don't plan to reuse the valves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8iGXa9H294

Lonnie

Yup, guess I need glasses.

[Mart]

I believe you do have the late rotator valves fitted. This is a definite plus when it comes to dis-assembly. The conventional way of pulling the guides down, pulling out the horseshoe clip and then withdrawing the whole assembly as a unit is probably best bypassed in this case because the guides look like they will not move easily enough for that to happen.

Get your valve tool behind the small retainer at the end of the valve, lift it (you might need to tap the valve head gently to break the taper) and the collets should come out.

Then withdraw the valve, tap the guide down a little way(using a long socket or similar), remove the horseshoe clip and pull the spring and guide up and out of the block.

Piece of cake.

Mart.

[Mac VP]

Definitely the 51-53 rotator type valves. This link shows the three types:

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...al_tools-1.htm

We rent a removal kit for flathead valves but I think you can get these out with a good quality valve spring compressor. This link shows the kit:

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/F...-rentalkit.jpg

[Macdozer]

Thanks for the help. All good things to know.
The reason I think I have the later valves is that the spring retainers don't have a notch in them. They are perfectly round.
The sleeves don't seem to be moving up or turn on the valve stem like I first thought they were.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Mac, it would be much easier getting the locks out if you had "straight" fingers on the spring compressor!

Without the correct fingers it's difficult getting the angle with the tool to grab the springs up high!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a shot of the springs being compressed, actually takes only about 5 or 10 minutes or so to get all the locks out. Of course the air-operated compressor makes it a little easier also!

[JHFORD51]

Absolutely forget what you see in the manuals; it ain't coming apart that way. You have years of carbon and sludge locking the whole assembly together, not to mention water damage. For that condition engine no special tools are required. A piece of rebar or round stock heated on the end and flattened out with a groove ground in it, a hammer, a screwdriver, and a socket/punch slightly smaller than the valve guide bore is all that is required. Pry the valve spring up and hold it there, hit the head of the (raised) valve with a hammer, this will knock off the locks. Sometimes one will stick, repeat or use screwdriver to tease it off. Remove valve spring prying device. Place crowbar under head of valve and pry it out of the guide. get spring and retainer out of the way. using suitable socket/punch drive valve guide down the bore into valley. Once you do one or two you will get the hang of it. Start with easy to access ones; save difficult ones for last.

[Bored&Stroked]

Once I've made the decision to replace the valves, guides, etc. (which is an easy decision to make), then some level of 'violence' usually comes into play.

This is especially true with older flatheads with mushroom stems and split guides - nothing for me to ponder saving.

With later one-piece guides and 11/32 stem valves, sometimes you can save them, but if they are frozen, rusted, obstinate, etc - get them out any way you can. I've used cut-off wheels and air tools to cut springs/stems. I've raised valves and knocked their heads off with hammers, heck - I even used a big ole' set of bolt cutters to cut the valves stems - whatever gets the job done. Once you know you're not hung up on saving the old stuff - you can get a lot more brave.

Having a large/long forged valve bar is REALLY important - as I can use it to lift the springs up, let the keepers fall out, etc.. I have never used one of the big C-Clamp style of tools - just a real pain getting them into the valley in all the weird angles. I'm sure that if I liked that approach, I'd just modify one to work a bit better - but don't see much of a need.

Anyway, best of luck - take all the ideas you've been given . . . see which ones work for you and get after it. In a few hours of time you'll have it all taken apart.

B&S

[Ol' Ron]

The best and easiest way to remove valves, is: Have somebody else do it. I've been taking a block apart for over 2 years now, it's been a long and bloody fight and their's only a few valves left.

[Cartravel]

I am also in the middle of a rebuild of an A block (38-41) with a 59AB crank. I was able to get the rear rope seal retainers from Vanpelt. I want to use a crab distributor with the original cam. I know it will need a 3 to 2 bolt adapter. Is this all I need to work with an early cam with the longer nose?
Larry Young

[Mart]

^^

Yes. The thickness of the adaptor compensates for the length of the cam.

[Macdozer]

I finally got one of the valves out.



Thanks to everyone's help.

The camshaft does not rotate I think some of the lifters
Are stuck. How can I go about removing the valves that are in the
Open position?

[Ralph Moore]

Try this, if the valve is open, turn engine on stand with valve pocket facing up, pour a small(capful) amount of your favorite flammamable product, I used denatured alcohol, then light it. Let it burn completely out then go in with your valve fork and try to move the guide. The direction you move it will depend on wether the "C" clip is still holding guide.
I'm tearing apart a 1940 block now and all the exhaust guides are stuck.
P.S. Do this in an open area, and keep a fire ext handy.

[JSeery]

Unless you are wanting to save the valve and springs for some reason the best method is to cut them. You will be forever trying to take it apart otherwise. A cut-off wheel works as do other instruments of destruction. That's just the nature of the beast with an engine that is completely curded up and even at that it is a major job getting the guides out. You will be far better off replacing the valves and spring and guides on an engine in this condition.

[JSeery]

Love this one! This guy gets the job done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdLVtOxdpD4

[Cartravel]

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On my rebuild, I got the crank in, but then had trouble with the cam installation. This is the second time I have found new cam bearings that are too small for an original worn cam. I had to use a brake cylinder hone to enlarge it enough to install the cam. The crank went in with no problem. After the regrind to 0.020 under, plastigage showed 0.0015 clearance. Endplay was about 0.005. This is a 59AB crank in a 38-41 block. Vanpelt had the retainers to convert to the later rear rope seals. This block had already been bored 1/8" over and the walls were too thin, so we sleeved every cylinder to 1/8" over. I was hoping to use the original full floating rod bearings, because it was supposedly a recent rebuild (heard that before?). It had too much clearance, so I had the crank pins reground to 0.020 under. The rods showed only about 0.001 wear on the ID, so I had them resized back to standard. I'm using NOS copper/bronze rod bearings I found on ebay. I did a test installation of the rods. I was expecting this to be a long process, but they seem to turn fine with slight drag on both the ID and OD, so I think I'm ready to install pistons. I'm using the original 4 ring pistons. Is there a front and back to these pistons? After that I will move to the valves. I am using 8BA valves and adjustable lifter, so that should be easy.
Larry Young

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Cartravel

On my rebuild, I got the crank in, but then had trouble with the cam installation. This is the second time I have found new cam bearings that are too small for an original worn cam. I had to use a brake cylinder hone to enlarge it enough to install the cam. The crank went in with no problem. After the regrind to 0.020 under, plastigage showed 0.0015 clearance. Endplay was about 0.005. This is a 59AB crank in a 38-41 block. Vanpelt had the retainers to convert to the later rear rope seals. This block had already been bored 1/8" over and the walls were too thin, so we sleeved every cylinder to 1/8" over. I was hoping to use the original full floating rod bearings, because it was supposedly a recent rebuild (heard that before?). It had too much clearance, so I had the crank pins reground to 0.020 under. The rods showed only about 0.001 wear on the ID, so I had them resized back to standard. I'm using NOS copper/bronze rod bearings I found on ebay. I did a test installation of the rods. I was expecting this to be a long process, but they seem to turn fine with slight drag on both the ID and OD, so I think I'm ready to install pistons. I'm using the original 4 ring pistons. Is there a front and back to these pistons? After that I will move to the valves. I am using 8BA valves and adjustable lifter, so that should be easy.
Larry Young

Might want to consider starting a new thread on this, it is not directly related to the current thread and some folks on here might want to follow how your assembly goes.

[Cartravel]

We talked about full floating bearings above and that was the main reason for my post. I was surprised they fit so easily. Or, am I missing something?

[JSeery]

Nope, just thought you might get more noticed on a new thread, if you like it here great.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Larry, just an important tip to others here doing any assembling on ANY build, doesn't matter the mfr, the very first item to check is to make certain the cam fits the newly installed cam brgs, this is done first!!

When we do the cam brgs here we always try a cam for fit BEFORE the job is delivered and the customer finds the issue.

We have almost all brands (mfr's) of cams to work with, we tape up ALL the lobes and any gears and try it for fit! There is nothing worse than a customer calling and saying "I can't get the cam in OR I can't turn it when it goes in", this is very frustrating to the assembler. And this is why I say this should be the very first checkpoint. Too many assemblers go ahead and install the crank, rods, and pistons first and then "hit" the panic button when it's the cams turn! Having it all together makes a "cam-brg-repair" that much more difficult.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'm curious if you "honed" directly on the cam brgs OR the cam brg holes in the block?? You cannot "hone" babbited material, the grit WILL embed it self in there!

[Macdozer]

I was hoping to reuse these valves if I can.

The only way I have been able to get the keepers to drop out is to lift the valve up with the bar "pickle fork tool" and place a piece of wood on top of the valve and hit it down with a hammer. Hoping this method is ok.

[Cartravel]

I know not to hone Babbitt, but did not know what else to do. I've bought bearings for two engines now and both sets of cam bearings were two small. Who makes bearings that fit?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

I was hoping to reuse these valves if I can.

The only way I have been able to get the keepers to drop out is to lift the valve up with the bar "pickle fork tool" and place a piece of wood on top of the valve and hit it down with a hammer. Hoping this method is ok.

I would use a conventional spring compressor. The big C shaped thing that has a snap over lever on top. I just hook it under the spring retainer and apply some pressure. The other end is pushing down on the valve. It usually requires a small hammer jolt to make the retainer seperate and release the keepers. I have not done a set with the cones at the bottom. They may also need shock to release.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Cartravel

I know not to hone Babbitt, but did not know what else to do. I've bought bearings for two engines now and both sets of cam bearings were two small. Who makes bearings that fit?

Hi Larry, after doing a bunch of these Flatheads I have to admit I've never had a single cam brg issue, ever??

We use only the Durabond line and we have them "Teflon" coated by Calico when the customer requires the coatings. We've been using this procedure since the coatings began. We like it due to the fact most cam-to-journal clearances on this platform are generally on the loose side, hence the coating!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I would strongly recommend getting an accurate size on all 3 cam tunnel holes, this is a starting point! The holes should be 1.928" +/- .0005"! Also double check the cam journals, they should be between 1.796"/1.797".

[B-O-B]

Macdozer:
The only way I have been able to get the keepers to drop out is to lift the valve up with the bar "pickle fork tool" and place a piece of wood on top of the valve and hit it down with a hammer. Hoping this method is ok.
Becareful with the hammer valves are easily bent. Use the big C compresser.

[Macdozer]

I have been using the Valve spring compressor and think I have gotten the hang of getting these valves out. Only four more to go. Thanks for all the help.

[Macdozer]

I have gotten the block all disassembled and now ready to take it to the machine shop. Going to take the block to L &R machine in clarmont, nh who have done a bunch of the flatheads.
Just going to have it mega fluxed first hopefully everything is ok. Is there any recommendations or advice that might be usefull to know.

[felix37]

Good luck on your 59A build! I built mine last winter with the help of Ol'Ron's book and many members of the Barn. My 37 is my daily driver and so far no problems. you could probably search my threads and posts to help answer some of your questions. Good Luck!

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

I have gotten the block all disassembled and now ready to take it to the machine shop. Going to take the block to L &R machine in clarmont, nh who have done a bunch of the flatheads.
Just going to have it mega fluxed first hopefully everything is ok. Is there any recommendations or advice that might be usefull to know.

Hi Mac, mag the block as a second choice, pressure test it as a first choice. Magging is NOT 100% effective, pressure testing is the only guarantee. Doing both is fine!

Ask the shop if they use a block-plate when finish honing the bores?? and see if they are able to pin the heads and gaskets to the block like the SBC's??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Also ask about modifying the block for the 95% oil filtering setup. This is the time to have that done.

[Macdozer]

What does the block plate do when finish honing the blocks?
And what does pin the heads and gaskets to the block mean?

How necessary is the 95% oil filtering setup?

[Macdozer]

Just wondering because this the first flathead I am rebuilding.

[Mart]

Dozer, the 3 things mentioned are sort of optional extras done by top notch shops. The hone plate holds the block in the same condition that it would be with the heads torqued down, so that when it gets honed the bores will be as true as possible when the head gets fitted. Pinning the heads to the block means using a dowel type setup. to ensure the heads are always located in the same position. The 95% oil setup is a good thing to do, but again the vast majority of these old motors run with the factory bypass oil system and tons more run with the original factory setup of no oil filter at all.

It pays to be aware that these options are available but they are by no means essential for a run of the mill flathead rebuild.

Just my opinion, not trying to rubbish anyone's suggestions. A newb can become confused if barraged with advice when some of that advice is not essential.

Keep doing what you are doing to get the valves out, be gentle, you might bend some.

If you look underneath, you can see which lifters are stuck up. you should be able to tap these back down.

That said, a lifter/valve stuck open should not stop the cam from turning. You need to locate any that are stuck in the closed/down position.

Mart.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

What does the block plate do when finish honing the blocks?
And what does pin the heads and gaskets to the block mean?

How necessary is the 95% oil filtering setup?

Hi Mac, having a block-plate for the final sizing on the bores simply duplicates the "pressure/tension" on the cyl head fasteners in the deck surface, bolts or studs don't matter, and keeps the cylinders perfectly round when honing. As heavy as these casting seem, they are still fairly "flimsy".

When you assemble the unit and bolt the heads on the bores will still be round. I doubt Ford ever did it this way, but today it is the "norm".

Pinning the block/heads/gaskets keeps everything from "moving" around. With the use of any aftermarket aluminum heads lately it's good precedure. The mfr's have made the head bolt holes much larger than in the past.

The block-plate serves as 2 tools for us, first for the "pinning" and second for the honing. It is used for both procedures.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The oil filtering mod is just a real good feature, and now is the time to do it, during a complete teardown. Even if you decide against using the filter setup it's nice to have it there if you change your mind! Here's a shot of the plate, the pinning setup, and the filter mod.

[Macdozer]

Update. I brought the block to the machine shop and checked for cracks.
NO Cracks, good news. The bad news is that some of the cylinder walls do have some bad
pitting and the shop is recommending boring it 0.030 over.
He said he will try honing first. I was really hoping that I would not have to bore it out, is there any advice anyone can give me.

If I do get it bored to 0.030 over what are my options with new pistons, where can I get new ones from?

[Ol' Ron]

99.9% of the flathead rebuilds never see a torque plate, including the originals. It's just a good idea, I think??

[Binx]

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Well, if he said he'd try to hone it but it may need .030" bore then don't pay him if he said he tried. More commonly available pistons are in the "even" range of .020,.040,.060 etc.

Lonnie

[Topsterguy]

Originally Posted by Capn John

Get your self a STUMPY'S ENGINE STAND ADAPTER and save some later grief !
http://stumpysfabworks.weebly.com/st..._Products.html

Do you have an adress or phone number for this?

[Macdozer]

Update and question , the block has checked out ok but will need to be bored. The crankshaft also needs to be turned which wasn't a surprise to me it has some bad pitting on the journals.

I am wondering what to order for valve lifters? Should I get adjustable lifters?
Where is the best place to buy the valve parts from, guilds, lifters, ect...

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

Update and question , the block has checked out ok but will need to be bored. The crankshaft also needs to be turned which wasn't a surprise to me it has some bad pitting on the journals.

I am wondering what to order for valve lifters? Should I get adjustable lifters?
Where is the best place to buy the valve parts from, guilds, lifters, ect...

Now's the time to use bronze-lined guides, they help keep the valves from "hanging/sticking" during longer periods of storage.

We use only the original "Johnson" tappets, SBI stainless valves, and most times Ross pistons. The Ross piston/moly-ring pkge allows for some extra HP.

We do use the OEM style 4-ring pistons on occasion but rarely.

You may want to consider a stroker kit, not sure about your budget??

(Add) "Happy New Year" to all here!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The guides get lined, machined for seals, and we use the new "Viton" valve stem seals. This is all part of a pkge including 16 new guide locks (the horseshoe guide retainers), new seals, and a new set valve locks.

[Ol' Ron]

Gary I think the guy is trying to save money on a stock rebuild. What you suggest is alittle overkill. 49-53 stock guides and valves. Knurel guides for tight fit and he's golden. #40 of stock spring pressure on a stock cam and you can use any adjustable lifter. Clearancing them the old fashon way is very expensive, IF you can find anyone to do it. Walt is along way off. We have to come up with some reasonable rebuilds so more people do it and don't start installing those belly button engines.

[Macdozer]

Yes this is a stock rebuild. I was thinkinking of getting new valve guilds but would the old ones be ok to use if I can reuse the valves?

As for the adjustable lifters I see there are a few different types and was wondering what ones would be good for a stock rebuild.

[BILL WZOREK]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Gary I think the guy is trying to save money on a stock rebuild. What you suggest is alittle overkill. 49-53 stock guides and valves. Knurel guides for tight fit and he's golden. #40 of stock spring pressure on a stock cam and you can use any adjustable lifter. Clearancing them the old fashon way is very expensive, IF you can find anyone to do it. Walt is along way off. We have to come up with some reasonable rebuilds so more people do it and don't start installing those belly button engines.

Ron:
Only 1st cup of tea so far, Brain ain't awake yet.
What is belly button engine ??

THANKS

[Ol' Ron]

Bill, that's funny???

[Macdozer]

I see reds headers sells Johnson style adjustable lifters, solid and hollow wondering why the difference?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Ron:
Only 1st cup of tea so far, Brain ain't awake yet.
What is belly button engine ??

THANKS

A "belly button engine" makes reference to the ubiquitous Chevy small block engine, as like belly buttons, "everyone" seems to have one. DD

[Fordestes]

Go fast, what are the part numbers for the valve seals ? or better yet what engine are they actally for , I have some left overs from sets of overhaul gasket kits , I dont want to starve my valves for oil by using the wrong ones,are the phospher bronze bushings from goodson a good way to go? how thick is your torque plate?
anyone know if a boring bar stand off plate for boring blocks without removing head studs will work in place of a torque plate?
Thank for you many contributions in the past ,I really learn a lot from all here!
Fordestes,

[1939 pickup truck]

This is all very interesting and helpful to many of us sitting on the side, as I too will
need to learn a great many small bits of vital information and looking to you folks.
Please pour all your knowledge and insights into this thread, as many will benefit.
Book recommendations, return links to past threads, insightful personal anecdotes...
Cheers !

[GOSFAST]

1. Go fast, what are the part numbers for the valve seals ?

Ans. We order the seals from the mfr (Global), either 100 or 500 at a clip, depending on our inventory level at the time we order, our part number in the computer is VS-1025, not sure about the original mfr number? I don't have that available.

2. or better yet what engine are they actally for,

Ans. Not sure?? We buy them by size & material, .343" x .500" x Viton. There are other sizes but this fits the Flathead guides nicely.

3. are the phospher bronze bushings from goodson a good way to go?

Ans. The K-line or Goodson liners are the brand we use, #KL-1958 I believe is correct number.

4. how thick is your torque plate?

Ans. The plate measures 1.500" and has been made in house to handle a few different operations, the 2 main ones being the final honing and locating the dowel pins.

5. anyone know if a boring bar stand off plate for boring blocks without removing head studs will work in place of a torque plate?

Ans. Would most likely be a bad idea, not much boring from the deck surfaces is being done anymore, most are done from the mains.

6. Thank for you many contributions in the past , I really learn a lot from all here!

Ans. Thanks, you're very welcome.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We make much of our own tooling, dedicated to each procedure. We have a very specific setup to install & size the bronze liners in the Flathead guides. With the block plate setup as it was built we are able to dowel-pin a block here today and install pre-pinned heads (maybe done at a much later time) for a perfect fit. It makes every pinning operation "standardized".

[BILL WZOREK]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

A "belly button engine" makes reference to the ubiquitous Chevy small block engine, as like belly buttons, "everyone" seems to have one. DD

Yea But does it matter if it is a inny or a outty when they figure H.P. rating ~ LOL ~

[Macdozer]

If I go with Johnson style adjustable lifters do I have to drill a hole in the lifter bores in the valley ? Or can adjustment be make without drilling the hole?

[Ol' Ron]

I think the biggest problem here is the definition of a rebuilt engine. When rebuilding an engine you can make some modifications that will improve reliability, power and economy. With out spending any more money than a stock rebuild.
Unfortunately, a "Souped up engine" lands in a different class and depending on your pocket book can be quit expensive. But after spending all that money the power output will still be less than a hot rice burner.
"Aesthetics" cost money, even on the inside of the engine, Like. Aperson asks "can I use solid adjustable lifters?" Why not? they work just as well as the lighr weight ones, in a stock or mild rebuilt. Garry want's to use Bronze guides. Nice do they work" Yes. are they the best you cna use in you engine? Yes. But knurelled stock guides work very well too at less than half the cost. Then we go to pistons. Forged or cast. Racing, I'd use forged. for street I'd use cast. Balancing, again, it depends on the rotating assy if you have all the original stock parts and only change pistons, not necessary. The vast majority of rebuilt engines never get re- balanced. This could go on, but I just want youse guys to think about tje application of your engine before you plunk down the$$$$$$. The hourly rat of these shops have gone up to the point that if we don't come up with a reasonable rebuilt engine the Flatheat head will go the way of the Gooney bird.

[Macdozer]

Totally agree Ron
I'm just trying to do a stock rebuild for this one. From what I am finding out it looks like to use adjustable lifters a lot of people drill the holes in the lifter bores to ease valve adjustment. As of now I am thinking of getting the lifters from reds headers

http://reds-headers.net/index.php?ma...&products_id=4

I am wondering about cleaning up the valves I have a sand blasting cabinet and have some new glass media that is 40-80 grit material does any one know if this size grit will be ok?

[Ol' Ron]

Yes, by all means, drill the adjustment holes. Buy a 3/16 long drill at a hardwarre store to make the job easier. Drill the hole just above the oil tube. Make sure you knock the bore off the inside of the lifter boe. I use a wheel cyl hone. Also for those using a hi lift cam, grind of about an 1/8" off the top of the lifter bore, so the wrench will fit..
All this does is to make sure you do more than one flathead

[Macdozer]

What is the reason/ theory with the different styles of adjustable valve lifters. Why the adjustable hollow lifters and the solid adjustable?

[flatjack9]

The solids are generally cheaper.

[JSeery]

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The difference is weight and cost (as flatjack posted). The lighter the lifter the better, but in the case of low RPM flatheads it doesn't make that great a difference to justify the cost for most people. Original Ford lifter are hollow (very light weight) and the Ford tractor lifters were solid, so I guess Ford thought there was some value to the lighter lifters in the V8s or they wouldn't have spent the money on them. However almost all flathead builders claim very little gain, so there you go.

[Macdozer]

Thank you that clears things up for me.
I haven't cleaned up the valves yet and wondering what some of you do to clean yours?

But also wanted to know if I can't reuse the valve seats and have to install new ones can I reuse the old valves?

[Binx]

What I do to clean valves that might be reusable is scrape them as clean as possible with a safety razor blade then spray with oven cleaner, let sit for a day and scrub with a wire brush. Repeat. Oven cleaner works on seats too. A few years ago I used carbon tetrachloride but The EPA decided I was a threat to myself and all creatures on earth.

Lonnie

[Ol' Ron]

If the seats are good why change them? same with the valves. Make sure they are not to thin after they have been refaced. Take the sharp edges off then and the seats after they're finished.

[Ralph Moore]

I've always just cleaned up valves on a wire wheel. Takes a little time, but it works well and is cheap.

[31blackcoupe]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Shelly at Mac VP is re doing it and it should be available soon.

Hey Ron, what's the name of your book? & did you mean Mac's?
thanks, art

[tubman]

Does anyone have a source for knurled guides, or is it something any reasonably equipped local machine shop can do? (I'm building stock or close to it.)

[Binx]

Tubman, start a new thread asking about guide knurling so Macdozer's thread doesn't go off-track. I have an idea on the subject.

Lonnie

[Macdozer]

While I was pricing out parts it seemed like Reds headers had decent prices.
With every thing, adjustable lifters,valve guides, springs and other hard ware it was about $350.
But I see reds also sells some valve changeover kits that includes new valves.
For around 260 or $285 with the Lincoln springs.

http://reds-headers.net/index.php?ma...roducts_id=307

http://reds-headers.net/index.php?ma...roducts_id=310

I'm Curious what some thoughts on going this route might be and if anyone here has used these kits before.

[JSeery]

Reds are what I used.

[Macdozer]

It seems like the kit might be the way to go, even though I would like to use the old valves I'm trying to do what is cost effective and will also be reliable for many thousands of miles.

What is the difference between the stock valve springs and the Lincoln Zephyr valve springs ?

[Bored&Stroked]

The decision to use or not use old bearings comes down to the condition of the bearings, the condition of the journals on the crank and the associated clearances.

If you're very familiar with looking at bearings, using micrometers and such - then you can check things out and make some decisions. Make sure you keep all bearings in order - so you know exactly where they came from.

What I've found that in many cases the bearings had some 'crap' go through them - maybe even during the disassembly process (rust, etc) - and they get score marks in them as a result (especially the mains). I always replace them - but that is just me and the bearings in my case are a small part of my overall expense.

If you're trying to be conservative on price, no reason you can't check them all out (along with the crank/rods) and see if they can be reused.

Take some good quality close-up photos of the bearings and journals - I'm sure there will be many opinions on here to help you make your decisions!

Good luck,

B&S

[Bored&Stroked]

Valves: As I noticed you already had the late valves (non-mushroom stems), you may be able to reuse them. Clean them all up with a wire brush to get all the carbon/crap off them.

I would then put them in a lathe and check for straightness, then mic the stems and see what condition they are in and also see that they haven't been reground too many times - having no margin left for a regrind. If the valves look good, then I would polish the stems in the lathe while I was at it. I use some super-fine sandpaper that has already been used on something else - like 600 wet or dry.

Springs: I'd probably pickup a set of springs no mater what - as your engine sat for a long time, had water in it (rust), etc.. The Zephyr springs just have a bit more strength (pressure on the seats) than stock springs. Typically they have about 55 lbs on the seat (at installed height).

Guides: If your guides are good, you can reuse them - might be a good idea to send them to GOSFAST and have him put the bronze liners and seals on them - not a bad idea.

[Macdozer]

Thanks bored&stroked
I will have to buy new valve guilds a few of them broke on the way out.
After getting the engine cleaned up it has been bored out before . The Pistons also prove this they have 0.040 stamped on them. Looks I will have to go to .060 over.

What is the best way to clean up the cylinder heads inside and out?

[Macdozer]

I was wondering what method of cleaning the cylinder heads is. For now they are just sitting in some kerosene. Was thinking of getting them baked and then sand blasting them. I want to make sure the water passages are good and clean.

What are some of the best ways to do this?

[Macdozer]

I have been looking for a engine gasket kit for the 59 ab and was wondering if anyone had any recommendations. Speedway, victor reinz , fel-pro, just wondering if some are better then others. Now that it is going to be 0.060 over bore will that affect what size head gasket I use?

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

The .060 only need the std. head gasket, I recommend the BEST brand gaskets set. They have every gasket you'll ever need in the set and the best rear main seal. Job Lot carry that and a lot of other venders. Walt

[GOSFAST]

Most standard bore gaskets are 3.270", on a .060" over (3.250") the risk of having the "fire-ring" too close to edges of the bores is much too high. There's a real possibilty a portion of the ring will hang over the edge at 3.270". You may be "splitting-hairs" so to speak.

I would go for the 3.420" and have a decent safety-margin!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We try to stay with the Fel-Pro line, never had a single issue so far. We do use the 1-pc front seal on all builds with the respective sleeve!

[Macdozer]

I see they sell composite and copper head gaskets in the kits which one is better ?

I am thinking of going with the standard head gasket size with the block being bored 0.060 over, not sure I understand GosFast comment on the fire ring being to close to the bore with these gaskets please explain.

[Bored&Stroked]

What he's saying is that the steel/clad fire ring can get really close to the heat of the bore, which can cause it to prematurely fail (causing a blown head gasket). You'll probably have no problem with regular gaskets - but, if you go to the 'Big-Bore' gaskets, you'll have a bit more margin for safety and the issue goes away. Hope this helps.

[Macdozer]

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Yes that helps thank you.

I have also been trying to figure out the clylinder head studs, when taking it apart the heads had Bolts, should they be changed to studs when I put it back together?

Can someone tell me if these are the proper part numbers for the head studs for a 59ab with the original cast heads?

40-6065
40-6066
40-6067
And is there a good nut and washer kit advailable that is preferred?

[Bored&Stroked]

The parts quality can vary - one of my friends ordered a stud/nut/washer kit and the nuts were so soft, I'm not sure they were even Grade 8. I prefer to use ARP stuff - it is by far the best and you know the quality is there. It may cost a bit more, but is the route I go.

I don't have my green book in front of me to lookup the part numbers, but here are two places that have a lot of quality parts:

Vanpelt Sales:

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/e...prices-pg1.htm

Reds Headers (These are all ARP studs, which is only what I use):

http://reds-headers.net/index.php?ma...ort=20a&page=1

[Ol' Ron]

Many years ago I saw an ARP stud kit and the course thread length was too long. The stock stud seats into the block. The ARP are floaters. Whick could cause trouble in the blind holes at the end of the block. They may have changed them????? I use bolts.

[Macdozer]

Trying to figure out the oil pump for the engine (59ab) I think it is the long style and 50lb pressure. Is it best to get a rebuild kit for the pump ?
I want to make sure I get the right kit for the pump and any information would be great.

[Binx]

Macdozer, if you remove your pump's cover and see no unusual wear in the cover or gear mesh then put it back together. Ford long pumps are a notoriously good product.

Lonnie

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Many years ago I saw an ARP stud kit and the course thread length was too long. The stock stud seats into the block. The ARP are floaters. Whick could cause trouble in the blind holes at the end of the block. They may have changed them????? I use bolts.

Tell yah what Ron, I just purchased a set for the 42 Merc stroker I'm building.

I'll check the thread lengths and report back. One has to make dang sure that the coarse threads are not too long and interfere with block internals - on ANY engine. This is an easy way to crack a block - ask me how I 'learned' this lesson! It is now something I always check.

I'll update this thread and make a new post later . . . probably next week.

Dale

[JSeery]

I'm also interested in this as I have a set as well.

[GOSFAST]

Let me clear up some specs on the ARP stud kits.

When the kits are ordered from ARP under a "standard" number they will package all the studs with 1.000" long coarse bottom threads unless noted. If you order the studs individual you can specify .750" long bottom threads! They make almost all their studs in both bottom lengths. The short's (.750") have a letter "S" at the stud part number end, the long's have an "L".

The only holes that are really an issue are the 2 above the heatcrossover, occasionally they'll need to be shortened slightly regardless of the bottom lengths!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. On a side note, when we work with various brands of heads we find the machined heights are not always consistent. Also, on many heads there is add'l machining on the topside of the head bolt holes to make a nicer finished surface for the bolts or washers/nuts, we find this mostly on "used" aluminum castings.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Tell yah what Ron, I just purchased a set for the 42 Merc stroker I'm building.

I'll check the thread lengths and report back. One has to make dang sure that the coarse threads are not too long and interfere with block internals - on ANY engine. This is an easy way to crack a block - ask me how I 'learned' this lesson! It is now something I always check.

I'll update this thread and make a new post later . . . probably next week.

Dale

Please do, thanks Dale!

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Valves: As I noticed you already had the late valves (non-mushroom stems), you may be able to reuse them. Clean them all up with a wire brush to get all the carbon/crap off them.

I would then put them in a lathe and check for straightness, then mic the stems and see what condition they are in and also see that they haven't been reground too many times - having no margin left for a regrind. If the valves look good, then I would polish the stems in the lathe while I was at it. I use some super-fine sandpaper that has already been used on something else - like 600 wet or dry.

Springs: I'd probably pickup a set of springs no mater what - as your engine sat for a long time, had water in it (rust), etc.. The Zephyr springs just have a bit more strength (pressure on the seats) than stock springs. Typically they have about 55 lbs on the seat (at installed height).

Guides: If your guides are good, you can reuse them - might be a good idea to send them to GOSFAST and have him put the bronze liners and seals on them - not a bad idea.

Ron S. in CT (Ronnie the Roadster) also does guides. He machined mine so they are tapered at the top for better flow. His work is top notch and it's reasonable. I think $60 or something like that.

[Ol' Ron]

Ron Sangovinni (sp?) is a very good builder, especially when it comes to Ardun conversions. Excellent machinist.

[Macdozer]

Is the long style oil pump 50 lbs pressure?

I am looking to order some parts, like oil pressure relief spring and plunger. And also
Oil pressure sending unit. Again 59ab engine.

[Macdozer]

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Flathe...ize,39162.html

[Macdozer]

It's finally time to order some Pistons and rings and was looking for some advice on what to go with. The engine has been bored 0.060 over.
These are the pistons I am thinking of going with.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1939-5...Over,1855.html

And the rings.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Flathe...ize,39162.html

[Bassman/NZ]

Macdozer...... just my opinion, but a lot of Speedway stuff is chinese origin. I personally believe you are much better going for US made product. I know Speedway is convenient, but you will find much US product still around. Joblot is a very good source, and njparts who are an Ebay seller have a lot of NOS USA stock. Gaskets? Best brand is great, they have recently re-jigged their holes so that head gaskets just drop straight on.

[Macdozer]

Thanks for the info I will look into job lot , van pelt, for Pistons.
I am also looking for another part which I am not sure of the name of it.
I believe it to be part of the 9415 assembly. It goes under the fuel pump and the fuel pump push rod runs inside of it. Here are a few pics.





Does anyone know where I can find one of these?

[Binx]

Drop it in some muratic acid/water solution to clean it up. Follow directions and DON'T DO IT INDOORS since the vapors are corrosive. It may come out useable.

Lonnie

[rheltzel]

Or use a non-corrosive chelating rust remover such as: http://www.theruststore.com/Evapo-Ru...FcWUfgodORwAeg

I'd still like to know a source for the elusive "orange juice can", as I need one and suspect that they help avoid heat issues with the fuel pump.

Anyone know a source?

[Macdozer]

I not sure these one would clean up well enough to use. Does anyone have a source where I might find one?

[Macdozer]

Can someone tell me what the name of this part is?

[JSeery]

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I would call it the fuel pump stand oil baffle, but I can not find a separate listing for it in the Green Book, it appears to be part of the fuel pump adapter assembly.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

There is 2 length of the depends on the height of the rear of the manifold. Walt

[Macdozer]

I've soaked it in vinegar for over a month and it cleaned it up well but I can see now that it has little holes all around it , does anyone have a source for these or does anyone have some good used ones available?

[Ol' Ron]

For some reason, when disassembling early engines I seldom run across these tubes, And I've never used them, not sure just what they do, probably keep the firewall clean.

[JSeery]

It's just an oil baffle isn't Ron? Like you say, to help keep the oil in the engine and off the firewall.

[Mart]

If there are just a few little holes, just weld em up. It's not a hyper critical piece. You ought to be able to find a barner willing to send you one, they should be fairly common, as all motors had them from the factory (ok, not the early ones).

[B-O-B]

Just J-B Weld them & smooth it up with the left over epoxy.

[Macdozer]

I'm going to be using the oil pump that came out of the engine. I've been soaking it in kerosene for now. Trying to get this nut out but it is very tight. How much force should I use. .?






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[Macdozer]

Macdozer;1050837]Is the long style oil pump 50 lbs pressure? For this engine?


I am looking to order some parts, like oil pressure relief spring and plunger. And also
Oil pressure sending unit. Again 59ab engine.


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[JSeery]

Are you asking a question or just providing an update?

[Macdozer]

Asking if the engine I have is 50 psi oil pressure or 80 psi how do you tell the difference?




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[Macdozer]

Can you use a 80 lbs oil pressure sending unit with a 50lb oil pump . Trying to figure out the right oil pressure for my engine 59 ab.


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[Walt Dupont--Me.]

That's a 50# pump, 46-48, it has straight cut teeth gears , not heilcol gears like the 80# 8BA engines, I use the 8BA pump in all my engines, it's shorter so have to use the 8BA truck oil pick up tube. Walt

[flatheadmurre]

The oil sending unit doesnt care about the motor as long as instrument/sender match all is fine.
Oilpressure is more about what you need if you have raised the power you can raise the oilpressure if all stock you can leave it as is.

[Macdozer]

Great to know thanks


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[Ol' Ron]

Go with Walt and use the late pump.

[Macdozer]

Is the oil relief plunger in the block part number 6663 and the oil relief spring in the block part # 6654 the same as the plunger and the oil relief spring in the oil pump ?


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[Macdozer]

Wondering if they are the same I haven't found many good pictures with part numbers of the oil pump.


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[Macdozer]

These are the parts from the pump that I am talking about.






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[Macdozer]

Just looked at my new valve springs they are longer than the originals I'm assuming that this is because they haven't been under tension.
Is this correct ?



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[flatheadmurre]

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Or one is a 50 and the other is a 80 ?
Springs can be made different to and its pressure at installed height thats interesting.

[Macdozer]

The new springs I got from reds headers they are the stock replacement. What difference will it make using a longer valve spring?


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[flatheadmurre]

It depends on if it has the same tension at installed height or not.
Cant tell if its right or not unless you put it in a springtester compairing to known value or running the pump against a pressure gauge.

[Macdozer]

Ok I might go with a new oil pump.

But I am now asking about the new valve springs. The new ones are longer than the old ones I took out. Is this because they haven't been under tension? Are new valve springs usually longer then what you have taken out?

[Macdozer]

Will I have to use different valve keepers with the longer spring ?


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[Binx]

Macdozer, looking back to page 3 of posts, your original valve assemblies are late 8BA with shorter springs for the two-piece rotator retainers. You'll have to use
'49-'50 one-piece retainers for the longer springs.

Lonnie

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

Will I have to use different valve keepers with the longer spring ?


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Hi Mac, you need to start measuring the installed hgts with the new springs and whatever retainers/locks you have on hand.

You won't really be able to tell much by "sight", you need (reasonably) exact numbers in this area.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We work with various springs, retainers, and locks on different platforms. Occasionally we use the locks that give a .050" shorter installed hgt, and we also use some that give a .050" taller hgt. Depends mostly on the spring pkge combo and the "target" pressure!

[Macdozer]

It looks like with the longer springs I will need the retainer and the lock keys only. I will not need the "sleeve"
I will measure the springs I took out and the new ones I got.
Are the retainers used with the different valve assemblys all the same or are they all different?


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[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

It looks like with the longer springs I will need the retainer and the lock keys only. I will not need the "sleeve"
I will measure the springs I took out and the new ones I got.
Are the retainers used with the different valve assemblys all the same or are they all different?


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Hi Mac, you need the retainers that don't use the "roto-caps", they are the 1 piece deals.

Like I mentioned above, you can alter the spring hgts/pressures by using the valve locks if needed.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a shot of both setups, you should use the one on the left side!

[Flathill]

MacDozer, Did you figure out if the valve springs are OK or do you need different ones. Very interesting thread !

[Macdozer]

I had to go with the 1BA - 6513 valve springs. They are shorter springs. The valves that use just the retainers and the locks use longer springs. I am using the original valves and staying with the set up that was in the motor.


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[Macdozer]

What do most rebuilders do with the main crankshaft bearing cap studs? The studs came out with nuts.



Should I reuse or find new ones for the crankshaft bearing caps?


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[Macdozer]

Where would be a good place to get new cap studs / bolts for the crankshaft bearing caps?


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[Bluebell]

speedway will sell you some arp bolts.

[Bored&Stroked]

Stock Henry Studs: If you're just rebuilding a stock engine, what you have works just fine. It should not be difficult to remove the nuts - but don't damage the studs themselves. If you don't have the tools to correctly hold the stud, don't just throw it in a vice and gall it all up - have the machine shop do it.

Studs versus Bolts: I prefer to always use studs - as you'll be using the fine threaded end to tighten up the nuts and set the torque . . . which tends to give more accurate readings than the coarse threads in the block.

It is actually NOT a good idea to change the stock studs to ARP - unless you're going to have the main crank bore checked . . . as the torque for new/different studs can influence the roundness of the bearing bore. Normally it should NOT be an issue, but it is something that I always have checked when I'm messing around with any new/different parts in the mains area.

[GOSFAST]

Just to be clear when changing fasteners, we've never had to align bore/hone from the fastener change only. The ONLY item to check is the clearance between the stud itself and the main cap bolt hole. Occasionally you need to clearance this area slightly. You do not want the stud shank "touching" the holes.

The only fasteners we do not make this recommendation on are the connecting rods bolts, the rods MUST be resized after any bolt changes.

On these "Flattie" mains we've also used the BBC main bolts from time to time. The outer bolts from the Mk-VI (4 B.M.) BB fits perfect with some chamfered ARP washers. (See photo below)

Most Flatheads built here (99%) do get the ARP main stud kit figured in the build.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We've done a high number of main brg fastener changes and have never found it to create an issue! We've been an ARP dealer since their beginning.

[Bored&Stroked]

Henry Ford had very high quality steel in almost all of his engine fasteners - I've used stock stuff for years with even high output engines. With that said, I do use ARP a lot - as the cost is small and the insurance is worth it.

Here is a link to Red's Headers (a place that I've had good luck with):

http://reds-headers.net/index.php?ma...roducts_id=683

As I mentioned before, have the studs purchased before you have your final block work done and always have the main bores checked for alignment with the actual fasteners you'll be using. As Gary noted, usually there will not be an issue - but always check.

Main Bearing Clearances and Crank Grinding (Race and High Output Flatheads): On performance builds, there is another area of the mains that I pay a lot of attention to. I prefer to have my crankshafts ground after I have the actual set of main bearings I want to use in my hand (and checked in the block) to accurately determine final clearances. A precision 3-point Starrett dial-bore gauge is used. I frequently see a variation of .0005 to .001 in actual torqued inside values - due to bearing manufacturing tolerances . . . so I like to give the crankshaft grinder the specific values I want for journal diameters.

In other/modern engines (say a BBC), we have the luxury of ordering .001 variations on the main bearing sets and then we can 1/2 shell them to tune the actual clearances to exactly what we want (which I frequently do).

If my crankshaft is pre-ground, the only way I can tune clearances on flatheads is to have multiple sets of bearings and swap stuff around until I get what I want . . . hence the reason to grind the crank with specific numbers (for a given engine and bearing set) in hand. The last engine I did this way - it took 3 sets of bearings (same manufacturer - King) to get what I wanted.

Is this necessary in stock engines - probably not, but it is very important in high output race style flatheads.

[Macdozer]

Reds price isn't bad but then the shipping at $20 for the 6 studs seems a little much. I haven't found any where else that sells the main studs.

Do any of you know of a place that might have them?



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[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

Reds price isn't bad but then the shipping at $20 for the 6 studs seems a little much. I haven't found any where else that sells the main studs.

Do any of you know of a place that might have them?



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You can always call ARP directly and talk to a Sales Engineer. I do this all the time and they are very helpful and can take your order right over the phone. I have had the same issues with Red's - their shipping calculator is nuts at times - especially with small parts and light-weight items. You can always just call them directly as well - good folks.

[Macdozer]

I will be using a new 80 psi oil pump. Will I have to change the plunger and spring in the block ? Or can I leave it with the 50 psi spring ? Again I am talking about the plunger and spring in the block, in the valve valley .


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[JSeery]

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The spring determines the final oil pressure, not the pump, as any excess pressure is released. 50 psi should be plenty.

[Macdozer]

Making head way on the rebuild. Crankshaft , camshaft, valves and all cylinders are in. Found something interesting today while looking through my book. The front oil slinger on the crankshaft ,there wasn't one there when I took the engine apart, i checked all the pictures I took and the oil slinger isn't there. I would like to get one to put in as they are probably there for a reason. Are the oil slingers for the flatheads all the same or are they different?


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[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

Making head way on the rebuild. Crankshaft , camshaft, valves and all cylinders are in. Found something interesting today while looking through my book. The front oil slinger on the crankshaft ,there wasn't one there when I took the engine apart, i checked all the pictures I took and the oil slinger isn't there. I would like to get one to put in as they are probably there for a reason. Are the oil slingers for the flatheads all the same or are they different?


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Hi "Mac", got the message!

I would definitely use the slinger.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Got that piece covered also!

[Macdozer]

Trying to find top dead center on #1 piston. Wouldn't the two timing marks on the crankshaft gear and the camshaft gear be TDC on #1 piston when they are lined up?
I am trying to make a pointer and a mark on the pulley.



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[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

Making head way on the rebuild. Crankshaft , camshaft, valves and all cylinders are in. Found something interesting today while looking through my book. The front oil slinger on the crankshaft ,there wasn't one there when I took the engine apart, i checked all the pictures I took and the oil slinger isn't there. I would like to get one to put in as they are probably there for a reason. Are the oil slingers for the flatheads all the same or are they different?


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The oil slinger is all the same 39-53, the earlier cranks have smaller diameter. Walt

[Macdozer]

Looking At my head gaskets and wondering why this hole on the gasket is so small compared to what is in the head. See pics








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[JSeery]

The only way to find TDC with any accuracy is to use a dead stop on the #1 cylinder. Need a fairly stout piece of metal that is long enough to reach a bolt hole on either side of the cylinder. Drill a hole on each side for a bolt to go into a cylinder head bolt hole and drill and tap the center for a bolt to act as a stop. I would spacer up each side of the strap from the block to provide some clearance for the center bolt. Now rotate the engine until the #1 piston is stopped by the bolt. Mark the crank pulley somewhere near you want your pointer to end up. Now rotate the engine 180 degrees until the piston again touches the stop and mark the crank pulley. TDC is half way between these two marks. I would repeat this several time to be sure your marks are accurate.

The head gasket holes are sized to control coolant flow through the block and heads, don't mess with them.

[Macdozer]

Getting ready to install heads, the hole in the head gasket just seems small. And I want to be sure that this is ok.


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[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

Getting ready to install heads, the hole in the head gasket just seems small. And I want to be sure that this is ok.


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It is not uncommon for head gasket coolant holes to be fairly small, it doesn't take much. A tiny hole in a thermostat can make a big difference.

[JSeery]

Posted a photo of a copper head gasket if that helps any.

[Macdozer]

While installing the heads I started thinking about the distributor and the vacuum line. As I don't remember seeing one when I started working on the engine. I checked my pictures and there is no vacuum line. The timing cover has the hole for it but I don't see any where on the intake manifold for a vacuum line. The only vacuum line on the intake manifold is for the windshield wiper. Just under the carb.

I am using a 1945 to 48 distributor. I see there is a vac. Line part number 21A-12226 that is for engines 42-48. But not sure how I would hook it up. Does any one have any pictures of the vacuum lines on a 59ab engine or other advice.
With out the vacuum line how would the engine run at higher speeds ?



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[Flathill]

I think you need the Vacuum Tube Line with end part # 21A-12226 that fits to the manifold connection under the carburetor. The connection on the intake manifold takes the tube with a ring end from the vacuum brake on the distributor and the rubber tube from the windshield wiper.

Refer to the thread titled "intake manifold vacuum 59ab" dated 04-20-2013 by Thaplumbr. Also there is a good picture.
The Tube line can be purchased from Joe's Antique Auto, C&A and others.

The connection that screws into the manifold under the carburetor has a hole in it with 2 copper gaskets. This fitting I can not find on line.

You can test run the engine without the vacuum tube connected but you should hook up the tube and vacuum brake on the distributor later for better engine performance.

[Macdozer]

Does anyone know where I can find this fitting that's under the carb. And screws into the manifold. Looking for the one that allows connection for the vacuum line to the distributor "banjo" type and the the vacuum line to the windshield wiper.


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[flatheadmurre]

Is this what youre looking for ?

[Macdozer]

Ha it should look like that but should have a hole in the side of it for the vacuum line part number 21a-12226 with the banjo type end. Where can I find one?


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[flatheadmurre]

That one bolts through the banjo fitting and has 2 holes.
If you cant find one from the nos dealers a JIC hydraulic connector has the right threads and get you up and running until you find the correct part.

[flatheadmurre]

What you need to make your own is a jic bulkhead connector.
They come in steel stainless and aluminum.
Put in a lathe cut the long end to needed lenght and drill 2 holes.
Turn down the short end to get a pipe end to connect the wiper hose.

[Macdozer]

What are some other ways people have used to hook up the vacuum line for the distributor. . ?


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[Macdozer]

I have read that some drill a hole in the intake manifold and tap it then run tha vaccuum line down to the distributor.
Just looking at my options as I can't seem to find the right fitting for the stock vacuum line and the vacuum line for the windshield wiper.

[Macdozer]

Still haven't figured out what I will do about the vacuum line fitting yet.
But good news is I got the engine back together and test started it. It started right up and sounds good .

But well it was running I had gas pouring out of where the shaft for the accelerator pump goes into the carb.
I have rebuild the carb and am using a new fuel pump. I am thinking that the fuel pressure might be to high on the pump causing the fuel leak.
I am using a new Airtex pump model 571 mechanical fuel pump. Could this be my problem or am I over looking something else?


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[Macdozer]

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Also wanted to add I am using a stromberg 97 carb. If fuel pressure is my issue is there a way to adjust the fuel pressure on the mechanical pump?

[Bluebell]

Macd. the delivery pressure is entirely dictated by the delivery spring, under the diaphragm.

[Macdozer]

I am still trying to figure out if my problem is fuel pump related or if is something in the carb. Would to much fuel pressure cause gas to come out the top of the carb? Around the accelerator pump rod .

Has anyone else used these Airtex fuel pumps.?

[CSArno]

I've seen on here that some of the carb rebuild kits have a bad accelerator pump seal. Not sure which ones, just recall seeing it.

[Mart]

Mac, I had too high fuel pressure, and stripped the spring out of an old pump. I fitted that in the newer pump I was using and the pressure was now ok. An older, weaker spring will not overpower the carb needle valve.

Mart.

[frenchy dehoux]

Good thread I am following this one.

Frenchy

[Macdozer]

I finally replaced the accelerator pump in the carb and started the engine, no more fuel leak. Which is good.
But while running if I gave it gas it would almost stall. I did notice that well running the fuel in the bowl was sucking air. It would be idle just fine. I only ran it for about 20 seconds as I don't have any coolant hooked up.
I wondering what some recommendations might be because now that I know it will run and I still have all the wiring to do in the car should I get it running right or should I go head and install the engine in the car then proceed from there?

[flatjack9]

If you have the clear glass bowl on the fuel pump, you probably need a new gasket - and you want a cork one, not neoprene.

[Macdozer]

I will have to find a cork gasket to use. Right now I will have to focus on wiring. But it feels good to hear it run.

[Macdozer]

Still trying to figure out how I am going to hook up the vacuum for the distributor. I haven't looked into a jic hydraulic connector because I don't have a lathe. Does any one have the proper fitting for the vac line that allows the hook up for the windshield wiper and the line for the distributor?

[Bored&Stroked]

Hey Mac - can't help you on the vacuum fitting . . . not really sure what your issue is? Is it that you don't have a vacuum port/fitting in the manifold? Or, that you need a t-fitting?

On the engine, now that you have it running - don't run it without load (I know the temptation is there). Wait until you have the rest of the car/truck sorted out and then break it in by putting it under load --> taking off from a start and giving it full throttle up to cruising speed. Do this a few times - to make sure the rings correctly wear/seat into the bore. If you keep idling it and running it without load, you may glaze over the bores and the rings may never correctly wear/seat in.

Great news that you've got a running flathead!

B&S

[flatheadmurre]

I think this is what he needs.

[Macdozer]

Yes flathead murre that is what I am looking for.
Or if anyone has an idea of how I can make my own.

[JSeery]

I have read this thread several times before and was always confused by the vacuum fitting question. Why is it difficult to find a vacuum fitting? What is the issue, the threads matching? I have several draws of fittings I have taken off of cars over the years, single ports, dual ports, multiple ports, they come in about any configuration you could dream of. Should be able to get what you are looking for anywhere. Are you trying to match a specific style? Would help if you could explain why you are having a problem with this, what is the thread pattern you need to match in the manifold?

[flatheadmurre]

Should be a 7/16-20 so a bolt for a banjofitting at your local hydraulic store would do the trick then drill and solder a pipe into the head of the bolt.
Or as JSeery wrote shouldnt be to hard to find a used one.

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by Macdozer

Yes flathead murre that is what I am looking for.
Or if anyone has an idea of how I can make my own.

Send me a PM with your address and send you one for mailing cost.Jack

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

I think this is what he needs.

Like JSeery, I'm at a loss about this specific fitting . . . where does it plumb into and what is so special about it? (Other than looks).

It doesn't look like any fitting that I've ever used and it surely isn't pipe thread (somebody mentioned 7/16 NF). It almost looks like it has a diaphragm or one-way valve in it.

Where does it go and wouldn't one need a t-fitting to split from it to the distributor and vacuum wipers?

Enlighten me boys!

B&S

[Mart]

The fitting is a combined banjo bolt and vac takeoff for the wipers. the banjo bolt holds the vac advance pipe to the manifold and the wipers can be plugged onto the vac tube on the head of the fitting. There does appear to be some sort of diaphragm or valve but I have not dismantled one to look inside. The threas is a unf thread, I don't have one here to check the size but it could very well be 7/16 UNF.

Mart.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Mart

The fitting is a combined banjo bolt and vac takeoff for the wipers. the banjo bolt holds the vac advance pipe to the manifold and the wipers can be plugged onto the vac tube on the head of the fitting. There does appear to be some sort of diaphragm or valve but I have not dismantled one to look inside. The threas is a unf thread, I don't have one here to check the size but it could very well be 7/16 UNF.

Mart.

So they used an actual banjo fitting for the distributor . . . and a regular rubber hose (needs to be flexible) to the wipers. Very interesting to say the least! If you happen to know, what years did they use them and on what cars/engines?

[JSeery]

The only reason I could see for using something that obscure would be if you were attempting to be 100% authentic. A normal vacuum fitting would functionally accomplish the same thing.