Fine Point vs. Touring Class

[31Tudor]

Just wanted to get some thoughts here. I am working on a fine point restoration, I have been accumulating parts for a few years and I am begining to assemble things now. A friend of mine is also working on a restoration and we began our discussion on whether or not he would persue a fine point restoration or restore the car to meet touring class standards. I gave him my thoughts....any other thoughts and opinions of one level of restoration vs the otrher?

[Logan]

fine point cars tend to be cars that get pushed on and off the trailer, never seeing the open road until the owner decides to not have it judged anymore. But of course there are some people who drive their fine point cars. Touring class allows the owners to be able to drive the cars, and have some wear and tear on the cars. It also isnt as strict of judging as the fine point is. It can "look" correct, but not have to be original parts. I think if your friend wants a car to drive and enjoy, you should convince him to do touring class if he wants an original style car. Or just not worry about judging, get out enjoy the car, and make the car fit around what he wants out of it.

[Mike V. Florida]

The overall philosophy of Touring Class Judging is that the “best” vehicle is the most original and correct vehicle in the best condition. All vehicles meeting the entry criteria will be judged, but any modifications will result in a less than perfect score and to give national recognition to those authentic appearing and well maintained Model As that are regularly driven to shows, club events, public interest, and for the general pleasure of the owner.

So essentially fine point is "as Ford wanted it to roll off the assembly line" Touring class is the same car "after it has been driven around for a few years".

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Logan

fine point cars tend to be cars that get pushed on and off the trailer, never seeing the open road until the owner decides to not have it judged anymore. But of course there are some people who drive their fine point cars. Touring class allows the owners to be able to drive the cars, and have some wear and tear on the cars. It also isnt as strict of judging as the fine point is. It can "look" correct, but not have to be original parts. I think if your friend wants a car to drive and enjoy, you should convince him to do touring class if he wants an original style car. Or just not worry about judging, get out enjoy the car, and make the car fit around what he wants out of it.

I DRIVE & enjoy Both of my MASTER RESTORATION AWARDED cars... P.S. that includes driving it on & off the closed trailer !!... GO SHOW !!..

[Arlen]

I love touring class. You can take your car to a national meet, win an award your proud of, and still drive it on the grand tour. I think before I spent the money needed to do a fine point car, I would rather just buy a bigger car than a ford.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Interesting perspectives above!


My perspective based on restoring several vehicles that have competed in both classes of competition is their really isn't any difference in the cars. In other words, the same vehicle should be able to compete in either class -and if adjudicated correctly, the judges should find the same exact deficiencies in either class. Afterall, both classes of cars share the same Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards book. Therefore the difference IMO is the scoring. Any vehicle that competes in Touring Class judging can compete in the Fine-Point class of judging. Visa-versa applies.

Maybe in this case, folks need to look at the big picture of "why" adjudication is done in the first place, --and more specifically 'why' they are doing it to their own car. In other words, would your friend still restore his Model-A to same exact level of quality/authenticity if either judging class was eliminated, -or is it more about the points?


One observation in general is almost every participant in Fine-Point judging finds themselves taking the Judge's evaluation and using it to do things to their car to make it even more authentic before they bring it back for re-evaluation. It seems most participants in T/C have the attitude they just wanted to see how it would score but rarely are interested in correcting the deficiencies. Afterall, it's just a "Driver".

[Jim Mason]

so long as the 13 points are met a car can be in fine point judging. Just don't expect high points. A 'touring class' built car will probably get a blue ribbon, and score 350 points plus or minus and place 2nd, or 3rd. Prior to touring class there was a very large number of cars in fine point with scores from 350 up. Now fine point cars are much fewer in number and scores are 390 plus or minus and up. Touring class has a larger number of cars and points are higher by those standards. So it depends on what you want high points in a less rigorous scoring or lower points in a very rigorous judging. If you go for fine point, after judging you can take the fan belt, original fan, original expensive friable parts off and drive the car into the ground. (my plan). I figure I restored it once, I can restore it again. (now if I could only get closer than 4 hours away from my car/parts/library/shop I could actually work on the car).....

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Yes Jim, very true response. I guess since you said " So it depends on what you want high points in a less rigorous scoring or lower points in a very rigorous judging. ", then I guess it really is about the points.

[Jim Mason]

yeah it depends on your goal. if you are points minded, then touring class is 'easier' (not easy just easier) to get high points than fine point. My goal is the best I can do, judged by the toughest standard, then drive it into the ground. Based on my ablilites, I think I should be able to score in the low 400's. If I don't thats good too, if I score better then it's a bonus. For me, points are secondary, the research, work, workmanship is what's important. If the world continues to turn the way it has, I may restore the car and not put my fine point stuff on it and never have it judged. If things don't turn in a different direction soon, I may sell it all off. We'll see....

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Fred

I DRIVE & enjoy Both of my MASTER RESTORATION AWARDED cars... P.S. that includes driving it on & off the closed trailer !!... GO SHOW !!..

So you pretty much just re-justified what I said. If you were judging at the meet, you wouldn't drive it to the meet... It would be on/in the trailer. Where as the touring class could be driven to the meet and judged. Yes the touring class needs to be clean both top side and bottom, but not as much so as fine point would.

[frank55a]

The history behind MARC's Touring Class Judging.

Through the 60s and 70s a recurring issue of the period was how to provide recognition to those Model "As" and owners who restored, maintained, and drove their Model A but never have, and may be never will enter their vehicle in judging. In order to resolve this issue, in 1980 Bob Murphy, President, announced the formation of a committee to develop a program for a National Driving Award based on the miles driven in a Model "A".

With creation of the Driving Awards program one issue was resolved however another was raised. Basically, while the Driving Awards program recognized the miles driven it did not recognize those Model As that were authentic appearing and well maintained. A good share of the Model A's that were registered for the national meets for various reasons generally would not qualify for Fine Point judging but none the less for the most part were authentic appearing and well maintained, however there was no program to provide national recognition to these Model A's. Therefore, in October 1994 the MARC Board approved Touring Class Judging.

From the beginning Touring Class Judging was intended to be like no other form of car judging. The intent of the process is to provide national recognition to those authentic appearing and well maintained Model As that are regularly driven to shows, club events, public interest, and for the general pleasure of the owner. The key words here are authentic appearing. There are many good quality repro parts that to most people appear to be authentic but as we all know are not. Within Touring Class Judging it is expected that there will be a mix of these good quality repro parts along with original parts that that may have been restored by the owner or a professional restorer, whereas within Fine Point judging it is expected that original parts will be used.

The Touring Class Judging process is intended to be fair, equitable, and enjoyable for the participants while maintaining a standard that will collectively raise the quality of the membership's Model As.

Since these vehicles were intended to be driven, a heavy focus is placed on the operation and function of certain components. Specifically, no points are given for these items but a failure of any item to properly operate would result in a large point deduction from the overall score. Further, all Touring Class vehicles must complete the full length of the Grand (mandatory) Tour.

Within Touring Class Judging all items to be judged are clearly identified in the Touring Class Judging Standards with the point level provided. The judging sheets/standards are written in such a manner that most items to be judged are in the form of an objective question, i.e., they can simply be answered with a YES or NO. Specifically, if YES they receive the specified points, if NO they receive "0" points for the item.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

So Frank, why was the 500 point score sheet implemented into Touring Class? Why not cap it off at 400 points, and instead of MARC of Excellence, offer a MARC of Recognition or something instead??

[Gary Karr]

I would encourage your frient to go for fine point with his restoration. He should restore the car to the best of his abilities and resources and go for it in fine point. It is a wonderful experience plus he will be part of the judging process which is an education in itself. He can always enter the car into touring class down the road after entering the car into fine point. Brent and Jim have said it well. If it is all about the points total, then that's one thing. If it is about striving to make his restoration the very best that he can for himself, that's something else. I have gone down both roads and for me, fine point is most rewarding.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Gary Karr

I would encourage your frient to go for fine point with his restoration. He should restore the car to the best of his abilities and resources and go for it in fine point. It is a wonderful experience plus he will be part of the judging process which is an education in itself. He can always enter the car into touring class down the road after entering the car into fine point. Brent and Jim have said it well. If it is all about the points total, then that's one thing. If it is about striving to make his restoration the very best that he can for himself, that's something else. I have gone down both roads and for me, fine point is most rewarding.

I agree 100 %. Aim high!

[peters180a/170b]

It take's that someone with enough BALLS and GUTS to restore a Fine point car. I still drive my 180A off / on a enclosed trailer . I still show my car at National meets and some locate meets [ not being judged at locale meets] to show what a CORRECT RESTORED Model "A" looks like. I also takes short trips around the neighborhood .Just 2 weeks ago i received my 8th. a.a.c.a. preservation award .I do this because that's whats left to do with Fine Point restored cars. That is part of all National meets.[ Showing Show Cars] .I am working on a unrestored solid 1935 Chevy 3 window coupe. [ That will stay unrestored and a good driver] I have both worlds.

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

My advice to everyone I speak to in this hobby is to always do a restoration to the best of your ability. Build a Model A to compete for a MARC of Excellence in Fine point. This should be within your budget if you are restoring the car. It may cost a little more to go for a Henry so I always shoot for the MARC Of Excellence. It is not that much more money to shoot for the MARC. It will always improve the value of the car when finished. If you feel you can go for the Henry I will never discourage anyone from doing that of course.
I then tell people to show the car for one year in fine point and then do the local shows or maybe an AACA show to have great time showing the car. After one year start to drive the car for another wonderful "driving " experience. After driving it for a year then enter "Touring Class" and enjoy that aspect of our great hobby.......You will never be sorry if you follow this path and you will have enjoyed all aspects of our hobby. Always do the best you can in a restoration and that is the challenge to all of us. I am always dissappointed when I hear someone say "I am just building a driver"......Raise your sights.....Do the best you can and shoot for the MARC....You will never regret it.
Then enjoy driving a fine Model A
Ken

[Roadster62]

As an outsider looking in are most "Fine Point" cars ones that were above adverage with most of the special bits there before the lifelong restorastion began? How many years do most people spend on these rebuilds? I know the cost is off the charts, but if that is what you want go for it. Bob

[Jim Mason]

the car that I've been wanting to 'do' for years has 76,000 on it. To many to perserve, but deserving of more than a half fast restore. Nearly complete though completely worn out torn interior. All original paint in the interior and on the floor boards. Some rust under the rear fenders and surface rust on the scratches. Mid west surface rust under side. I've been collecting parts for years. I have NOS rears and right front fender, steering column, bell housing, transmission parts, 80% of the rear end parts, brakes, tire valve stems, electrical, bearings, you get the idea. Most of the 'trinkety' parts were not there but have been collected over far more years than i'd care to admit to. How long? Life keeps getting in the way. I've started on it at least 5 times but never really got started. Marriages, divorces, sold everything including tools (not car), kids, moving, no shop, built shop, rebought tools, re bought parts, lost job, found job, more moving,no shop, lost job (that brings me up to date)... so...so far, it's taken a life time and still not done....

[rogerkb1936]

i have a 31 pu and a 31 roadster. these cars were built from stuff that was so bad it can't be described, but they look good, drive safely, and i pound hell out of them. if i tried to enter them in any judging, obumma would order a drone strike on them. so, should i just burn them cause they are "drivers)? judging is for self absorbed egoists.

[jerry of whidbey]

I showed in 2010 at Vancouver, BC, in Touring class. First time my truck was judged. Boy! Did I learn something! I scored in the upper 300 for my first time. I was thrilled. When I got the score sheets back, I couldn't believe the things wrong with my truck. So every year I improved and am in Fine Point -- learning something, and that's the good part.

[Pinstripe]

I don't think you can fairly pass off people that are into the finer aspects of restoration, and choose to get together with others with the same interests, as egoists. I absolutely can appreciate a finely restored anything, Model A or tractor or piece of furniture. And I am no damn egoist.

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

As an outsider looking in are most "Fine Point" cars ones that were above adverage with most of the special bits there before the lifelong restorastion began? How many years do most people spend on these rebuilds? I know the cost is off the charts, but if that is what you want go for it. Bob

I am not sure where this idea of the high cost of restoring a fine point car comes from but I think it is unjustified.
You can build a MARC of Excellence for a reasonable amount of money if you do the work your self.
Or maybe even farm some of it out. You can still get a MARC of E if you have a Lebaron Bonney interior.
All you need is 400 points.
Yes, you will have to do more hunting at parts swaps to find correct parts but when you do find them they will fit and look better on your car. Yes, you will need to read the books and study and find some help in the club to learn all about how to do it but this is part of the fun.
Recently a friend of mine restored a tudor and won a MARC of Excellence and he had invested $15,000 in the car. After showing and getting the MARC of E he is now driving the car. It is not much harder than restoring a driver and the result is a much better car to drive.

[RockHillWill]

There is no LOGICAL reason for 500 points for the Touring Class. The closest thing that I can come up with is that it was easier to change the scoring than to increase the effort. Because the Fine Point scoring was at 500 points first, it appears to be both disrespectful and illogical for a subsequent group to assume similar recognition for dissimilar effort. I have heard ‘rumors’ that legal clarification is being discussed by those that have purchased ‘high point’ cars under the assumption that they were Fine Point cars because of the nationally recognized 500 point system. This disparity needs to be addressed shortly. The folks responsible about our legal concerns have apparently over looked this issue. Additionally, this coagulation of the 500 point systems has had a negative effect on the selling prices of those cars that have achieved legitimate Fine Point status, and I can foresee legal issues resulting from that as well.

I am further perplexed by the logic involved in allowing cars entered in the ‘Touring Class’ that allowed to be brought in on trailers and many of these cars having less than a few thousand miles on them. The ability to have multiple winners with perfect scores would seem to indicate a lack of actual difficulty in achievement. I would like to see a more concerted effort between the Touring Class and the Fine Point group to establish a working relationship that would permit those wanting to continue to improve their cars authenticity to have some consistency in upward mobility.

My initially reason for joining Model A RESTORERS Club is as follows: They are one of the two largest Model A clubs in the country, and the only one with ‘restorer’ in their name. We are located in the same city and state as the manufacturer of the object of our desire, the Model A Ford, and we have unparalleled access to the technical data that was used during the time of their manufacturer. The provider of that technical information was Henry Ford, the single largest contributor to the Industrial Revolution in the greatest country in the free world. When a Fine Point car has been completed to the highest order, it is not only a nice Model A restoration, but a well documented and authentic piece of American History bordering on being a National Treasure. It is unclear as to why folks seem to be determined to write these cars off as a whim of eccentric restorers.

I have personally witnessed the giant amount of effort on the part of both national clubs to acquire, sort and present this information. (Additionally, we need to make original parts more available for both research validation and restoration, by the advocacy of more flea markets).

MARC has the technical wealth, the intellectual stealth and the mental health to put forward a national program called 500 STEPS TO HISTORY. Anyone is welcome to join and land on ANY of the steps they feel comfortable with (there should be a place for EVERYONE) and if they are inclined at any time to climb up the steps, there is abundant help available.

From my perspective as an active member of the Judging Standards Committee, I have been approached by at least two folks that had acquired one of these 490+ Touring Cars, only to discover that upon closer inspection it was not ‘Fine Point’ quality, and was accusing us (the JSC) of being less than talented for awarding that many points to a car of this caliber. It was awkward for me to try and explain that it was NOT the JSC that did that judging in a manner that was not disrespectful to the Touring Class folks. The answer to the follow up question was even more difficult to answer. That question that ALWAYS follows is: What is the reasoning or logic behind awarding similar points for dissimilar restorations. I still have no answer for that. The intentional naming of the awards to be similar to the Fine Point awards contribute to the confusion and does not lead you to think that this decision was made by clear thinking adults.

I was involved with the JSC for over 12 years, and can truthfully say that no one associated with that group has ever spent any time accusing anyone doing any form of restoration, that was ‘non-Fine Point’ of being lazy or having small testicles, but rather have expressed the desire to assist ANYONE that wants to restore ANY Model A to ANY condition. Use of the Restoration Guidelines will actually result in an easier effort in restoring a Model A to any level. It is the desire for those folks on or around the JSC group to make efforts to blend the two judging arenas in a manner that there can be a smooth transition from one group to the next, as opposed to having to choose one over the other.

If you have a Model A, it is yours to enjoy in any manner that you wish. If you want to park it outside under a tree and watch the oxygen be absorbed, or restore it to Fine Point quality, you have the right to choose and proceed, but for those with the courage and dedication to climb towards the top of the ladder, it would seem disingenuous for those part way up that ladder to shake it because they themselves are afraid of heights.

Consider the words of Vince Lombardi: “approach your goals with the relentless pursuit of perfection, knowing full well that perfection is not obtainable, but in the pursuit of perfection you will pass thru excellence”

[RockHillWill]

Here is a similar analogy.

The Price of Corn

A story about misplaced intellect and lack of logic

One county in central Iowa was known for having superior quality corn fields that produced stalks that were both healthy and tall. Some folks became envious, but most folks were curious as to what made this part of the country so prolific in producing such elegant corn stalks that grew nice and green while producing an elegant yellow core.

Many parts of the country had similar ground and soil conditions and heralded suitable climates conducive to similarly productive crop growth. After much study and review, it was determined that the primary condition responsible for this unusually high quality growth of corn was not the location, soil or weather conditions, but a rather rag-tag group of gentlemen with one common interest, and that was the discovery and preservation of all things needed to produce high quality corn. Their goal was neither profit nor notoriety, but merely to become the most knowledgeable corn growers in the country.

As word began to spread about their success, others became enthused about learning how to grow tall corn for their own fields and this group of gentlemen, interested in sharing their knowledge with all that were interested, welcomed them to their yearly meetings, where they shared their research, experiences and had a friendly competition in an effort to continue the goal of making corn grow healthy and taller, which had the residual effect of raising the known quality of this corn and thereby the prices for it’s consumption began to rise. For their comparisons of the growth rates, they chose a tall stick, higher than the current crops of corn to present a goal encourage competition, and they inscribed 500 marks on it.

The gentlemen were happy to share their ‘secrets’. They told of how they spent time at the town library, gathering planting, fertilizing and watering details, where they learned of the correct seeds to plant and when to till the soil. They learned to get up early in the morning to till while the soil was moist, and they would travel across several counties to obtain a little higher quality of fertilizer. They spent time some evenings picking out both large and small rocks that displaced both fertilizer and water, hindering the corn’s growth.

Those in attendance were suitably impressed with these gentlemen’s ability to grow the tall, healthy corn and would go home, intending to improve their own fields in an effort to increase their own quality and thus increase the value of their crop.

But there were a number of those in attendance that, while desirous of the better quality and the higher prices, were not willing to do the additional work required to measure up to the tall corn growers reputation, so they merely decided to go out and get a shorter ‘stick’ and put their own 500 marks on it, thus giving an outsider the opinion that they also had the high quality corn and sought a comparable selling price.

While the hard working corn growers were aware of this disdainful and deceitful practice, they were still primarily interested in preserving the finest quality of tall and colorful corn, seeking only the reward inherent in the completion of a project that results from knowing that you did ALL that you could do to accomplish the goal.

But an unseen and ignored consequence of this practice was that while the higher quality corn was still available, in an increasingly smaller number, the more common practice of marketing the lesser quality corn, was that the lack of quality did not go unnoticed by the consumer, and the demand for the lesser quality corn decreased and therefore the price of corn fell across the board.

Just as in the old saying “a rising tide raises all ships”, a receding tide leaves many boats in the mud.

By lowering goals, you lower expectations, and you get just what you expect!

[jkcrosson]

It seems every time a touring class versus fine points dialog comes up, it becomes them versus us. Lets face it, it is the guys doing the fine point restorations that have paved the way for most the information available to us today. Let's look at how much information is known about the model a that is available at my fingertips without digging back through Ford archives to find. I think some of this separation would go away if one requirement was added to touring class qualification. Every touring class car should be a previous fine point contestant. That way, everyone interested in points would be aiming for the same goal during restoration. That idea is the same as Ken mentioned in a previous post. jm2c.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by rogerkb1936

i have a 31 pu and a 31 roadster. these cars were built from stuff that was so bad it can't be described, but they look good, drive safely, and i pound hell out of them. if i tried to enter them in any judging, obumma would order a drone strike on them. so, should i just burn them cause they are "drivers)? judging is for self absorbed egoists.

I fail to see your logic ...but maybe you are seeking sympathy? If that is the case, you have mine.

Many of us have started with 'junk', -either because we could not find better, or could not afford better, but nonetheless we made do. We had a goal in mind and sought after that goal. Some folks need help along the way to achieve that goal. No harm or shame in that. The point that has been made here is 'do your best' and if you truly do so, then there should be no shame in that.

.

[Jim Mason]

Originally Posted by rogerkb1936

i have a 31 pu and a 31 roadster. these cars were built from stuff that was so bad it can't be described, but they look good, drive safely, and i pound hell out of them. if i tried to enter them in any judging, obumma would order a drone strike on them. so, should i just burn them cause they are "drivers)? judging is for self absorbed egoists.

Interesting. You claim that the stuff is so bad is can't be described. How do you know that? oh, wait you can compare it to a fine point or touring class car and the RESTORATION GUIDELINES and judging standards (RGjs). You also say they look good. compared to...what...oh, that's right touring class,fine point and rgjs? no your own opinion.
You seem to be judging your own car and workmanship not to the work of others (fine point and touring)but your own 'standards'...self absorbed egotist. BTW, setting you own standard is fine, just don't insult the rest that chose a national standard. Let the 'oxygen absorb' it, load it with parts to bad to describe, take it to touring, fine point, nothing. It really doesn't matter to me, but please stop insulting me.

Re read Will's comments. Set your own goals, make sure it's a stretch. If you set a 5% goal, you'll get 5% results. Set a 90% or 100% goal and see how much you can achieve.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by rogerkb1936

i have a 31 pu and a 31 roadster. these cars were built from stuff that was so bad it can't be described, but they look good, drive safely, and i pound hell out of them. if i tried to enter them in any judging, obumma would order a drone strike on them. so, should i just burn them cause they are "drivers)? judging is for self absorbed egoists.

Your right, let's close down all the restoration shops. Cars, trains, planes, whatever, close them down!!! Who cares what the stuff looks like, burn it all!!! Close the museum's, shut down the Smithsonian's. All that work is just for egotists!! Nobody cares for history. Good enough is now the law of the land!!!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Yes Jim, very true response. I guess since you said " So it depends on what you want high points in a less rigorous scoring or lower points in a very rigorous judging. ", then I guess it really is about the points.

I have to agree with Jim. It is all about the points. Points given as compared to a list of standards. Different standards can give the same points but they are not equal. If a local club has a judging event and uses the 500 point system and the car scores 400 points it is not the same as 400 points at a national event.

We are losing the forest for the trees in this thread. "...to give national recognition to those authentic appearing and well maintained Model As that are regularly driven to shows, club events, public interest, and for the general pleasure of the owner." Touring is not the same as fine point. Will there be those that want a trophy so bad that they will enter a "fine point" car in touring class, hell yea, there are assholes every where they fool no one but themselves.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Your right, let's close down all the restoration shops. Cars, trains, planes, whatever, close them down!!! Who cares what the stuff looks like, burn it all!!! Close the museum's, shut down the Smithsonian's. All that work is just for egotists!! Nobody cares for history. Good enough is now the law of the land!!!

No need to close down the restoration shops. Some people like to fix up their on model A, nether are necessarily perfectly original. There is also no need to try and FORCE all model A's to be perfectly correct. Mine only have to please me, Its still a free country in some ways.

[Jim Mason]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

No need to close down the restoration shops. Some people like to fix up their on model A, nether are necessarily perfectly original. There is also no need to try and FORCE all model A's to be perfectly correct. Mine only have to please me, Its still a free country in some ways.

hmm...I don't think you took Mikes comment as he intended it. I could be wrong...as to Mikes comment see:

sar•casm (ˈsɑr kæz əm)

n. 1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark.
[1570–80; < Late Latin sarcasmus < Greek sarkasmós, derivative of sarkázein to rend (flesh), sneer; see sarco-]

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

No need to close down the restoration shops. Some people like to fix up their on model A, nether are necessarily perfectly original. There is also no need to try and FORCE all model A's to be perfectly correct. Mine only have to please me, Its still a free country in some ways.

Nobody here in this thread tried to "... FORCE all model A's to be perfectly correct."

Building a car for judging is for those with sense of history, a desire to do things to the best of their abilities and have it looked at by people who will compare it with perhaps hundreds of other cars they have seen in the past and let you know how you did. With that information one can be happy with what they did or maybe go that little extra and see if they can make an improvement.

Touring class is to recognize those with older restorations, older fine point cars and even original cars. Cars like Fred's Henry award winners, can still be recognized for the work he did in the past the care taken over the years to keep it that way. Touring class can be used as a starting point for those that would like to know what is right and wrong with there car before that make the move to "create" a fine point car like Jerry of Whidbey.

I get the reason for touring class, but make a blanket statement that all judging is for egotists, those that are "..arrogant and boastful with a grandiose sense of their own importance" is just plain false!

[grj]

MARC was formed in 1952 with the purpose to “encourage its members to acquire, preserve, restore, exhibit, and make use of the Model “A” Ford”. There are several levels of restoration related to these activities. “The “Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards” were developed through the efforts of the Judging Standards Committee and others. By reading and talking with other restorers, our members can decide what level of restoration they wish to achieve, meeting the 14 point requirement, regular restoration, or Fine Point Judging.

The Fine Point Class is the backbone of our club while Touring Class is our body. One without the other would not be beneficial to our common interest, The Model “A” Ford.

Fine Point vehicles can be restored to the level of MARC of Excellence without a much greater expense than a regular restoration. In both cases it depends on what the individual can do. Henry Cars have been restored by owners taking the LeBaron Bonney kit apart and sewing it themselves. MARC of Excellence vehicles have been also driven to Tacoma and back and to the National Meet where they have received the award.

Using the same Standards judging Touring Class in Tacoma at the Joint meet in 1994 was just too difficult. They were just not restored to the same degree of originality. MARC also had been talking about having a Touring Class. Being a board member at that time I pushed to start it at our 1995 National in Pheasant Run but not by the same guidelines. This was approved by the BOD. Thus Touring Class began with an evolving set of standards and we have what it is today. Simply put the Model has a set of four shock absorbers, arms and tubes. In Fine Point they must be original and assembled correctly to the time of the production of the vehicle. In Touring you can have one shock, arm and tube from each year and assembled with each having a different part from each year. Reproduction parts are also accepted. I do not have a problem with that.

The purpose of Touring Class was to give an opportunity for the recognition of these cars without the stringent requirements of fine point judging. It was to be associated with our Driving Awards Program. The only drawback is a few of these vehicles are occasionally represented by their owners as 500 point, MARC of Excellence winners in “For Sale” ads. There can be a wide difference in value.

Regions provide our members with the opportunity to drive their Model A to events two or three times a month depending on their location. Some, as in Michigan, have driving events like the yearly Michigan Roundup. We still have a core of members that like participating in the yearly National Meets and enjoy all the events. The Swap Meet at the National provides the best opportunity to find parts needed for any level of restoration. In both local and national meets, we are drawn by a common interest and enjoy friends we only may see a couple of times a year. I like traveling to different parts of our great country.

There is nothing like driving an “A”. In AZ, I drive my Briggs Town Sedan two or three times a week. I have enjoyed restoring vehicles for both driving and Fine Point.

My wife always knows where I am.

[Gary Karr]

This has been a great thread gentlemen. Thank you Will, Brent, Jim, Gary, Mike, Pete and others for such clear and beautifully written wisdom. You are all what this hobby is all about and I am so prowd to call many of you my friends.

[RockHillWill]

Gary, it is people like you and Hunter Fanney (and others) that are prime examples of why Fine Point judging is an obtainable goal for those that are willing to set that as a goal and apply constant work and dedicated research over a period of time in a effort to complete the task.

You guys had the metal capability to invision the goal and the stones to step out in that direction, and the dedication to follow thru.

Gary, your car was one of the first ones that I had an opportunity to see as a participant in judging in Dearborn and I have had the priveledge of following the completion of Hunters car as well. I only wish I could bottle and sell the dedication and work effort that I have seen from you gentlemen and others.

I know for a fact that both you gentlemen work for a living and did ALL the work yourselfs. You guys took the time to actually learn what was required and made it happen. I have been around for a long time and guys like you are becoming a rare breed.

The success that you guys have actually achieved takes some of the wind from the sails of those that would say that the upper end of Model A restoration is overly expensive, time consuming and only for a certain type of restorer.

You guys are prime examples of the old addage that its your attitude, not your aptitude that determines your altitude. It is us who should be proud to call you gentlemen our friends, and I want to thank you!

I have also witnessed your willingness to share your acquired knowledge to anyone that is restoring a car to any degree of completion. It is that willingness to share that makes this such a great hobby. There is room for everyone, and this forum has been a great source of information as well.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

I have also witnessed your willingness to share your acquired knowledge to anyone that is restoring a car to any degree of completion. It is that willingness to share that makes this such a great hobby. There is room for everyone, and this forum has been a great source of information as well.

Well said!!

[wrndln]

I second what Will wrote above. Gary and Hunter have helped me out with many items I had questions about - a lot of them. They never made me feel like a pest, however at times, I might have been close to one. I have never seen Gary's tudor in person, but have seen a lot of pictures of it and it looks amazing. I did see Hunter's 29 special coupe at Oshkosh last summer and it to was very nice, especially since Hunter did almost all the work himself.
Rusty Nelson

[Tom Wesenberg]

One part at a time.........it will get restored.

37 parts done..............only 5,287 more to go.

[Charles Reese]

From one of the 'fine point plodders': "it's the journey, not the destination". Still a work in progress (12+ yr) ... but then, so am I As well stated previously, the many folks involved in the evolution of the JS and others (most of whom I will likley never actually meet) willing to share their knowledge (& elusive parts) is making this a fascinating journey ... other than the internal engine work, this is a 'home garage-do it yourself' project - have learned body work, painting (& sanding), upholstery, etc. (and yes, even which way the cotter pins point). My special connection to this vehicle is that I often rode in it when I was young (in the 1950s) growing up in the dustbowl of Oklahoma-fortunately that area did not have enough water to actually rust anything!-last tagged 1965.

[Purdy Swoft]

It reminds me that i've posted on the wrong thread.

[Jim Mason]

Ok. Oposing opinions are needed to fully explore options..but. ok. Free country as you say

[Purdy Swoft]

No harm meant, opinions do count. Some how I really did post on the wrong thread. I was thinking about the where is Bill thread. Too much coffee, Sorry!!!

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

Originally Posted by Charles Reese

From one of the 'fine point plodders': "it's the journey, not the destination". Still a work in progress (12+ yr) ... but then, so am I As well stated previously, the many folks involved in the evolution of the JS and others (most of whom I will likley never actually meet) willing to share their knowledge (& elusive parts) is making this a fascinating journey ... other than the internal engine work, this is a 'home garage-do it yourself' project - have learned body work, painting (& sanding), upholstery, etc. (and yes, even which way the cotter pins point). My special connection to this vehicle is that I often rode in it when I was young (in the 1950s) growing up in the dustbowl of Oklahoma-fortunately that area did not have enough water to actually rust anything!-last tagged 1965.

Chuck.....I do not want to hear it.......There will be a National Meet some where...Sometime where you will have to bring your truck to and enjoy a great time and meet all of us....YES this must happen.....See you there!
You have worked to hard to not bring that beautiful truck out so we can all kick tires and enjoy it,
Ken

[frank55a]

This has been a good discussion. Now back to the original question, that is 'Fine Point vs. Touring Class Judging'.


First I would like to go on record to say that I have the greatest respect for those past and present members of both clubs JSCs' and others that contributed their knowledge, time, talent, and resources over the years from the 60s to present in order to develop and revise the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards. I do know what it takes to develop the RG&JS and to restore a Fine Point Model A. Regardless of the level to which you decide to restore your Model 'A' i.e., a simple fixer-upper or full blown restoration to a Henry level we all owe those members involved a great debt of gratitude and a huge THANK YOU!

Restoration of your Model A is no different than any other life experience, i.e., when you first start on any project you should always set your goal to the highest standard possible and within reason strive to achieve that goal. Reality is that journey may be more difficult or impossible for some but none the less try your best. The end result is that you may be pleasantly surprised, you may have accomplished more than you ever dreamed of, learned new skills, met many new people, make new lifelong friends that you otherwise would not have come in contact with, and learn things about yourself that you did not know you were capable of doing.


I was deeply involved with Touring Class Judging from almost the beginning and the subsequent eleven years. Most every question regarding MARC's TC Judging process can be answered by reading the Touring Class Judging Q&A article that appeared in the Sept/Oct 2006 issue of the Model "A" News, the Touring Class page of the MARC web site, or in the Touring Class Judging Standards.


I firmly believe anyone that follows the RG & JS, honestly researches their "A", tries their best, and for the most part does their own work can restore their "A" to at least a 3rd place in Fine Point and perhaps much higher. In addition I firmly believe that a 3rd place award in Fine Point is much more prestigious and says more about your ability than the top Touring Class Award. Both of these points I have made many times in the past.


With all that said, now back to the original question, 'Fine Point vs. Touring Class Judging'. Understand that both types of judging have completely different purposes. The purpose of Fine Point Judging is to verify the vehicle is restored to the condition it was in when new and the day it was assembled at the factory. Whereas Touring Class Judging is intended for a 'used car'. Perhaps the best analogy would be that Touring Class Judging could be compared to a manufactures used car certification program, i.e., while the vehicle is used it is expected that it will meet predetermined standard for appearance, condition, and function of various parts and components.





When the Touring Class Judging standards were first developed a 500 point system was not the goal, on the radar, and/or considered.

1995 - the first year of TC Judging there were a series of 119 questions with 3 levels of priority split between 5 Areas: 1) the highest were worth 10 points and generally corresponded to 13 of the 14 points of Fine Point Blue Ribbon Judging plus a few more items; 2) secondary were a number of items deemed to be important to the general original appearance and/or operation they were worth 3-5 points each; and 3) lastly there were an number of lesser details deemed to be important to the general original appearance worth 1-2 points each. The total number of possible points available was 489 points.

1996 - due to feed back and lessons learned Area 1 Engine was split to form the current 2 Areas (Right and Left sides of the engine) and additional questions were added with a series of 143 questions the total points available were 513.

1997 - again due to feed back and lessons learned, 3 questions were deleted and the value of some questions were lowered a point, the total points available were 500. It was felt that 500 points was a much more manageable number than some odd number of points while it still maintained the 3 priority point tiers for which the standards were based.

Many people over the years questioned why there were not more questions and/or items judged. Simple, the committee could have added many more questions but what would the end result be - specifically they would have added much more time to the judging process, more work for everyone involved, more chance for errors, and with all of this the end result would be no change in the award that any specific vehicle would receive. Further, to add more items perhaps the total TC points could have been somewhere between 700 and 1000 points. In addition, it was generally felt that if a person paid enough attention to the TC Judging Standards and the RG & JS to achieve a high score then they would take pride in their vehicle to ensure other items were also correct.


In summary, I do not recommend restoring a Model A to the Touring Class Standard, set your goal higher, restore your A according to the RG & JS, and do your best. Then when you are finished and depending on the time and miles that has passed after completion enter the vehicle where you feel comfortable.

[RockHillWill]

A HUGE thank you for your response to this post. It goes a long way to explain things that might not have been fully understood, and I appreciate your attention to the details of the points process.

I am also in huge agreement that we need to work together as a group to further the pleasant experiences for ALL those in our entire hobby as well as those that are members of either MARC or MAFCA.

[31Tudor]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Hey everyone, I also want to thank all of you for your input into my question. I have given my friend the info from this post and I am not sure what he has decided yet. I will continue my journey on my fine point restoration and I enjoyed reading a lot of great opinions and it helps to keep focused on my goal. Thanks.

[DougVieyra]

In 1984 I DROVE my newly (two years) restored 1928 Phaeton 400 miles to Portland, Oregon for the MAFCA NATIONAL MEET. The drive encountered rain, dirt roads, roads being paved, salty winds of the Oregon coast line, on-coming gravel trucks, etc. , plus all the normal 'wear and tear' of actually DRIVING the car 400 miles.

I had entered my car in fine-point Blue Ribbon judging. As I was also a Judge at the meet, I had no time to do any 'clean up' other than a quick wash job. After the judging was completed, I discovered that in my rush to get to my Judging Station, I had not taken off the rubber brake/clutch pads (covering my NOS pedals), had forgotten to leave my original ignition key in the ignition switch, properly 'tune' my original Champion XXX spark plugs, and a host of other 'point-loss' items. And too, of course the car's paint did suffer from some road hazards.

Al the same, even with all my short-comings, the car won a FIRST PLACE in fine-point Blue Ribbon judging. However, I have noticed that my driving the car a long distance to be judged, is a rarity - and there are points to be lost in doing so. Still it can be done.

I had owned the car for twenty years before it was restored in 1981, and still own and drive it regularly these thirty years after the 1984 MAFCA Portland Meet.