new engine start-up problems

[Brian King]

Hello fellow V8ers. Today I went to fire up a fresh 59ab with a Bubba's crab ignition and 3 97s rebuilt by Max in SLC. Once choked she fired up, but slowly seemed to "load up", eventually dying. From then on out it would do little more than cough. One of the symptoms was a periodic blue-flame backfire out the exhaust, and the electronic tach was jumping around bad.
Before I mess with Bubba's ignition, I'm wondering if maybe I have low voltage to the coil? Or.....? Any help would be appreciated.

[Bursonaw]

Are you running progressive linkage on the carbs? If so are the outer carbs set up as secondary carbs? It sounds like it might be over loading up with fuel. With progressive linkage the two outer carbs should not be operating at idle. Try disconnecting the linkage and check that your outer carbs are not part operating. A quick test is to put your hand over the intake of the outer carbs to see if the are sucking any air. The engine should run fine on one carb and then you can add the secondary carbs once you get it running right. Hope this helps.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ggmac]

Agree sounds like too much fuel ! Eliminate the outer carbs from the break in procedure before you wash out the rings . Change manifold if possible or completely block off carbs .
More info needed , volts to coil , type of coil , still 6 volt or changed to 12 .
What kind of tach ? What fuel pump ? Still using a resistor?

[glennpm]

Have you tried pushing in the choke most of the way once it starts with a little throttle?

[Terry,OH]

Beside above suggestion from Bursonaw check the ignition wiring to the coil and ignition switch.

[Brian King]

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Good questions all. Here is some more info...
Yes running progressive linkage. The outer two should not be coming on at all at this point.
Outer two chokes are locked out, however I did try working the center choke. It needed that to fire initially, but then it stopped making much of a difference when it wouldn't run anymore.
It's a Skip Haney coil, converted to 12v. I'll get the numbers on voltage to the coil when I get back out there late this afternoon (work calls!).
Mechanical fuel pump with a regulator on it set to 2.5 lbs.
Modern Stewart Warner tach.
When we were trouble shooting some other issues previous to this we bypassed the resistor temporarily. Haven't plumbed it back in yet, but I wouldn't think that is the issue(??).
Appreciate all the advice!

[JSeery]

Are you sure Skips coil requires a ballast resistor? As already stated, I would remove the two outer carbs and block off the manifold. That way you are eliminating two possible sources of the issue. They serve no purpose at this point and increase the difficulty of trouble shooting.

Also might want to put a pressure gauge on the fuel line and double check that the regulator is working correctly.

You could also pull the spark plugs and do a compression test on the cylinders and check the plugs over.

[tubman]

I always use a known good stock carb and manifold on the initial start of any engine I build, regardless of other modifications. It's easy on a flathead because you don't have to drain the cooling system to change it later (obviously).

[Brian King]

The use of a good, stock manifold is a great one. Trying to figure out how I can block off the two outer carbs with my stainless fuel line set-up. I have a small fortune into it, finally getting it to stop leaking at every fitting (last time I use stainless), so to mess with it doesn't sound appealing.
Those junk pressure regulators are just that. But unless Charlie Price can figure out a way to reproduce those cool looking Edmunds regulators and get them to work with modern gas, not sure there is another option.
A lot of you guys are angling at the fuel. I'll focus in on that when I go back out there today after work.

[glennpm]

Don't worry about the fuel lines yet. Block the top of the other two carbs off with couple of pieces of wood or metal. You may be thinning the choke effect with the other two carbs open.

[Ggmac]

The idle circuits are still in play with the outer carbs , meaning more gas , and that’s assuming the power valve isnt leaking . Block off the outer carbs , thin alum under the carb or remove and use what ever is easiest . Running good witout ruining the rings is priority, looks are secondary .

[russcc]

I am also just about to fire off the newly re-built 59L, but am using a stock manifold, a known 94 carb that Charlie NY rebuilt, along with a 21A dist he did also. I don't want any extra issues to deal with until it is sorted out. Then I will install the Offy manifold and WCFB that Charlie also modified for me. The last thing I need after all this work is excess gas washing the lubrication off the cylinder walls and diluting the break in oil.

[flatjack9]

I always do what Tubman and russcc do. As noted, you don't want to be washing down the cylinders. Break the engine in with a known good carb and distributor. Then work out your 3 X 2 setup and distributor.

[JSeery]

You don't have to totally disassemble the carbs and fuel lines if you would prefer not to. Loosen up the carb mount bolts and slip a thin blocking plate between the carb base and the manifold. May take a little messing with this solid gasket to get it to fit, but shouldn't be overly difficult.

Another question, you are not attempting to use stainless steel lines between a firewall mounted fuel block and the carbs are you? Or are all of the fuel lines on the engine itself?

[cas3]

Skips 12v coils DO require a ballast resistor.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by cas3

Skips 12v coils DO require a ballast resistor.

Then guess it's not a 12v coil is it. That's why I ask the question, you really need to know what is needed before trying to use it. IMO it is always better to use a coil ballast resistor combination, but a lot of people like the simplicity for the coil only.

[Brian King]

OK here is the latest:
-Unplugged the outer carbs and then covered their inlet with tape.
-Checked voltage at the coil and it's got 9 volts.
-Tried to fire again but it acted exactly the same.
-Cut the pressure regulator to it's lowest setting (.5 lbs) and even drained the bowls of the outside carbs.
-Just like last night, it goes from firing and sputtering for 10 secs to nothing on about a half dozen attempts.
-Plugs look wet, but not sure that tells me anything since it's pumping fuel but not firing - of course they're wet.

And no I am not running stainless from the firewall to the carbs. I bought one of Charlie Price's stainless lines that comes from the mechanical fuel pump (with the regulator in between).

So, gents, what say ye? I'm lost.

[KiWinUS]

Each time you try something to fix are you cleaning plugs? If plugs are fouled or wet you will never diagnose your problems.

[JSeery]

I would think the wet plugs would be a clue. They will not fire if wet.

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I would thing the wet plugs would be a clue. They will not fire if wet.

If there’s no spark or ignition is not functioning correctly they will be wet.

[Brian King]

I agree - weak/improper ignition will allow the plugs to be wet.
Two ideas come to mind: either throw another crab distributor on there, or throw another intake on there (stock with a single carb.
Another distributor sounds easiest at this point.

[joe 1950]

Do you have good blue spark at the plugs

[glennpm]

Pull any plug. Ground the plug to the block. See if you have a spark from spark center electrode to the side ground electrode.

[Step-down]

For guys like myself I always start with a single carburetor, narrowing down the confusion and break-in.

[Chris Marshall]

Here's a long shot. A malfunctioning tach can cause all kinds of odd ignition issues. Disconnect the tach and give it a try.

[tubman]

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Originally Posted by Chris Marshall

Here's a long shot. A malfunctioning tach can cause all kinds of odd ignition issues. Disconnect the tach and give it a try.

Maybe not such a long shot; I had this exact thing happen to me.

From my long experience with fouled plugs in snowmobiles, I don't think it would be a bad idea to buy a fresh set of plugs to try.

[Don]

Change out rotor,,easy to do,,had same problem but using single carb,,,

[Ggmac]

[QUOTE=Brian King;1934985]OK here is the latest:
-Unplugged the outer carbs and then covered their inlet with tape.
-Checked voltage at the coil and it's got 9 volts.
-Tried to fire again but it acted exactly the same.
-Cut the pressure regulator to it's lowest setting (.5 lbs) and even drained the bowls of the outside carbs.
-Just like last night, it goes from firing and sputtering for 10 secs to nothing on about a half dozen attempts.
-Plugs look wet, but not sure that tells me anything since it's pumping fuel but not firing - of course they're wet.

And no I am not running stainless from the firewall to the carbs. I bought one of Charlie Price's stainless lines that comes from the mechanical fuel pump (with the regulator in between).
Tape is not a good choice ! A little fuel oe vapor will cause the glue to go by by and the tape could be sucked into the motor . Did you disconnect the progressive linkage when first trying the tape ? If its not the tach causing problems I still think its TOO MUCH fuel . It starts normal and after 10 seconds it goe to crap , tells me its spark and plugs are ok for the first start up then it floods . Take the outer 2 carbs off , it doesnt take much to wash the cylinders out requiring rings or at least a rehone .

[Brian King]

I only used tape to cover the velocity stacks, not down on the intake where it could be sucked in. Besides, there are screens on the mouths of the carbs.

Worked on it some this weekend, though I let myself get distracted with other chores on a new build (ie: bleeding brakes, greasing zercs, etc.). But I did:
- completely disconnected both outer carbs from the fuel line
- checked the needle/seat in the center barb (not plugged)
- checked spark (looks to be good)
- disconnected tach
I too have to believe it is too much fuel. Tomorrow I'll pull the center carb and have a look.
I can't slap another distributor on there - had to machine this one to accept an altered spacer plate...this is what happens when you mistakenly put an early came in a later motor and the crab won't seat.

[JSeery]

Just taping the top of the outside carbs will not stop a fuel or air leak. You need to block off the manifold with something solid, like a thin metal plate. You can slip it between the carbs and the manifold.

[glennpm]

Hi,


Regarding "I can't slap another distributor on there - had to machine this one to accept an altered spacer plate... this is what happens when you mistakenly put an early came in a later motor and the crab won't seat"



Are you sure that you have your distributor mounted correctly with the rotor pointing to #1 on the cap for the power stroke? Not sure if your spacer would change how the crab tang mounting would be affected.


I had questions about finding #1 power stroke and there are good methods in this thread:


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ht=TDC+glennpm

[Ggmac]

What Jseery said ! Leave the center carb , remove the 2 outer carbs by butting aluminum or something solid between the carb and manifold. By just taping the top of the carb you made it worse , now its just suckingfuel , unless you emptied the bowls and disconnected the lines . Reducing the fuel press isnt good enough.

[Brian King]

I gotta try and capture everything I've tried here:
-all 3 carbs disconnected from fuel lines
-spark is strong
-advanced the crab distributor
-checked and rechecked firing order
-rehooked up center carb only and it ran for about 30-45 seconds before finally succumbing to my tuning.
-backfired like a son of a gun. I could never get it to clear out.
Sooo..... it HAS to be ignition! Tomorrow I'll run a compression check to make sure we are ok there. For the life of me I can't figure out the backfire.

[glennpm]

"Are you sure that you have your distributor mounted correctly with the rotor pointing to #1 on the cap for the power stroke? Not sure if your spacer would change how the crab tang mounting would be affected."

[Brian King]

Checked and triple checked that the distributor is pointed at #1 when the thumb blows off #1 spark plug hole. The spacer should make no difference.
It acts as if the cam is off a tooth, to be honest. But not sure how I could have screwed that up during assembly - all you have ot do is line up the dots when installing the cam gear.
Hopefully the compression test today doesn't reveal anything.....

[glennpm]

Good Brian, thanks for the reply.

[Mart]

The fuel regulator set to 0.5 lbs might not actually be delivering any fuel. Set it to about 2 lbs.

[Brian King]

I took the pressure regulator off. Just a mechanical pump feeding directly to one carb.
Whether I had all three carbs or one on, or whether I had a pressure regulator or not, or whether I poured gas in from the top or pumped it in.....it all acted the same. Thus ignition(?)

[JSeery]

Another long shot, there were a couple of post about timing gears being mismarked. Not sure if they just thought they were mismarked or they actually were mismarked.

I don't remember, but have you run a compression test? A valve sticking might lead to a backfire.

Also, depending on the carb type, a backfire can damage the power valves and cause them to leak.

[glennpm]

He plans to run a compression check today from post #35

[Brian King]

So I think we figured it out.... Ran the compression test and had between 115-125 lbs on every cylinder, EXCEPT for #8. While running the test on that cylinder, the gauge abruptly stopped at 80. Hmmmm. Turns out my gauge hit the #8 exhaust (hit all of them actually, but only bent #8). Dang.
Pulled the intake off and opened #8 intake and blew compressed air through the spark plug hole - I saw a little piece of chingaso fly out, but not sure if that was stuck in the seat or not. I also had not known about shimming flathead valves, so not entirely sure that the #8 intake didn't just need shimming instead of something stuck on the seat.
Pulled the head and both #8 valves and tomorrow I'll replace with 2 new ones.
And I'll check installed height of all valves to see if more shims are in order.
After I put 2 new valves in then back together and we'll try it out. This is the end of a 20 month ground up build with my 16 year old, and he looks to drive it on the Northern CA Reliability Run this Sunday.
Thanks for all your help!

[glennpm]

Good Brian, glad you have found the chingaso problem at last ;-)



Glenn

[Brian King]

I'm back. Even longer story as to what has gone on the last few days, but I'm stuck again and here is the latest:
- Checked installed spring pressure and all is well.
- Put a dial indicator on a piston and turned it over. Found that the ignition is not firing until the piston is on its way DOWN (by about .060).
- Pulled the front end off, the front cover, assuming I had a brain fart and didn't align the dot on the crank gear with the hash mark on the timing gear.
- Dot and hash mark align.
WHAT IN THE HECK AM I MISSING??? It's an Isky Max 1 cam with a stock timing gear. As I recall, the timing gear only goes on one way. And other than the marks aligning, it definitely makes sense - it acts severely retarded. The last time I tried to fire it, I advanced the distributor as far as it would go and it ran for about 30 secs (poorly) instead of the normal 5-10. But with the way it backfires....retarded for sure.
There's no way the distributor could be set up wrong to cause it to be so retarded, is there? I could pull the cam gear and advance it a tooth - with the marks no longer lining up - but that doesn't seem right.

[JSeery]

Probably need to degree the cam and see what is going on.

[40 Deluxe]

1. Have you tried a different condenser or coil? Wouldn't be the first time a new part was defective out of the box.
2. Have you checked EVERY electrical connection including all grounds?
3. Is the point gap still correct?
4. Hook up a timing light and watch the flash when you start the engine. If the spark is cutting out you will see erratic flashes or no flashes.
5. Borrow a carb from a good running engine or try your carb on a good running engine.
6. Could the valve guides be a little tight, causing the valves to be slow to close? I have seen cases where a valve would close at cranking speeds and give a good compression reading, but hang up when running. Is the compression now even on all cylinders?
7. DO NOT assume anything! Check and verify everything! One step at a time, and you'll find the problem.

[flatjack9]

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Cams have been known to be ground wrong. Need to degree the cam. This should always be done with any cam change. I have found cams to be off by as much as 6*.

[Brian King]

I am ordering a new (smaller) degree wheel that I can fit on the front of the crank pulley with the engine in the truck. So degreeing the cam is next.
Extensively went through Bubba's distributor last night and all looks right. The problem is not carburation, it's not the ignition. I KNOW the spark is firing when the piston has begin it's descent, so I'll degree it and go from there.
All other connections appear to be sound and ignition is producing a good spark - just late (retarded). Stay tuned....

[JSeery]

Has anyone ever ran across the slot in the front of the camshaft being mislocated?

[Mart]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Has anyone ever ran across the slot in the front of the camshaft being mislocated?

I have. But not out angularly, it just wasn't offset the correct amount. I trashed two distributors before I found out what was going on. I had to modify the drive tangs on the distributor to suit. Problem is, that dist is now a one off and will not fit on the timing fixture.

Mart.

[Brian King]

Gents, coming back to this thread. Three weeks and I'm still out of answers. I've chased down every rabbit hole I know. Here is what I've done:
- Degree'd the cam to Isky's specs (dead nuts on)
- Had the distributor checked out on a machine (dead nuts on)
It's ignition, not carburation. I've triple checked the wires and the firing order.
If I didn't know better, I'd think the slot on the front of the cam was offset.
Any more suggestions?

[glennpm]

Hi Brain,


When you tested the distributor did it included your cap and rotor? I had trouble a few months back where my 32 started missing intermittently one day and finally quit. I had to get a tow truck ride home. I eventually found that my rotor was the cause. It looks fine with no cracks etc. I had another new rotor put it in and it started and ran beautifully after that.


Glenn

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by Brian King

Gents, coming back to this thread. Three weeks and I'm still out of answers. I've chased down every rabbit hole I know. Here is what I've done:
- Degree'd the cam to Isky's specs (dead nuts on)
- Had the distributor checked out on a machine (dead nuts on)
It's ignition, not carburation. I've triple checked the wires and the firing order.
If I didn't know better, I'd think the slot on the front of the cam was offset.
Any more suggestions?

The slot in the front of cam IS OFFSET!!!

[glennpm]

Yeah I think that is very likely too.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

The slot in the front of cam IS OFFSET!!!

I thought he was referring to degrees wish. It is offset to the side to index the distributor, of course. I ask the question earlier if anyone has ever run into a cam with the front indexing slot being off in relationship to the cam timing.

[glennpm]

Yes, and I believe Mart said he had run into it ... yes, post #49 above.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Yes, and I believe Mart said he had run into it ... yes, post #49 above.

Yes, but that was the side to side issue I thought, this question is about indexing to the cam timing.