Brake Frustration

[1967 Camaro]

I don't like doing drum brakes...really don't. In the middle of a complete brake rebuild on the '57 Thunderbird. Fronts done, moving to the rear I discover the shoes are 1 3/4" wide compared to the kit replacements 2 1/2" wide! Ordered the "complete brake rebuild kit" from Ecklers (Macs) thinking it would cover everything. Now my attempts to call are resulting in endless time on hold or waiting for the "tech guy" to call me back. I guess I shouldn't take it for granted that vendors are detail oriented.

[Dobie Gillis]

Eckler's was your 1st mistake. Just sayin'...

[56sedandelivery]

Yep. Sometimes Macs stuff is, well not up to snuff.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by 1967 Camaro

... moving to the rear I discover the shoes are 1 3/4" wide compared to the kit replacements 2 1/2" wide! ...

Both of those sizes may be incorrect. The '55 & '56 Birds used 1 3/4" wide rear shoes.

I just called my two favorite '55/'57 T-Bird parts suppliers and the 'parts folks' at both resto shops said the rear shoes on a '57 Bird are two inches wide.

Also check for the proper 15/16th inch diameter rear wheel cylinders.
https://www.ctci.org/rear-brake-wheel-cylinders/

.

[1967 Camaro]

I've seen both 2" wide and 1 3/4" wide. I'm going with what I removed. Brake cylinder bores are correct

[JeffB2]

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Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Both of those sizes may be incorrect. The '55 & '56 Birds used 1 3/4" wide rear shoes.

I just called my two favorite '55/'57 T-Bird parts suppliers and the 'parts folks' at both resto shops said the rear shoes on a '57 Bird are two inches wide.

Also check for the proper 15/16th inch diameter rear wheel cylinders.
https://www.ctci.org/rear-brake-wheel-cylinders/

.

Shows both 2" & 2 1/2" here https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...rake+shoe,1688

[paul2748]

Look in the shop manual - that will tell you the width

[mobileparts]

A 1955 - 1956 T Bird Rear Brake Shoe is --- ONLY --- 11" x 1 3/4".....
A 1957 T Bird Rear Brake Shoe is --- ONLY --- 11" x 2".....

As someone points out above, Mac's / Eckler's is a Chineseum reproductions selling outfit --- and their "tech support team" --- Xiang Lee --- makes eggrolls.....

If you would like to deal with a knowledgeable, in the business auto parts MAN for 50 years now in 2021, with Quality parts --- you are welcome to call me ---
Craig --- 516 - 485 - 1935.... I have MOUNTAINS of N.O.S.and U.S.A. parts !!!!!

If I had a nickel (5¢ !!!) for every Rock Auto wrong listing, my pocket would not be fat enough for the
$ 25,000 + that I would have !!!!!

[miker98038]

My 55 bird has a Dana 44 under it out of a truck. The axles and bearing confirmed that, I don't remember the brakes. The welding on the spring perches looked worse than after a 3 day weekend.

Lots of swaps went on over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened on the 9" in the 57's too. Many times you could buy a whole rearend out of a yard for less than a repair.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by paul2748

Look in the shop manual - that will tell you the width

The chart on page 6-11 in my musty old '57 shop manual shows the lining width for the Rear axle of
'57 T-Birds as 1 & 3/4 inches for the Primary (front) shoe, and 2 inches for the Secondary (rear) shoe.

Not sure how that works out these days with parts that are sometimes more of a generic fit. ???
.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by mobileparts

A 1955 - 1956 T Bird Rear Brake Shoe is --- ONLY --- 11" x 1 3/4".....
A 1957 T Bird Rear Brake Shoe is --- ONLY --- 11" x 2".....

As someone points out above, Mac's / Eckler's is a Chineseum reproductions selling outfit --- and their "tech support team" --- Xiang Lee --- makes eggrolls.....

If you would like to deal with a knowledgeable, in the business auto parts MAN for 50 years now in 2021, with Quality parts --- you are welcome to call me ---
Craig --- 516 - 485 - 1935.... I have MOUNTAINS of N.O.S.and U.S.A. parts !!!!!

If I had a nickel (5¢ !!!) for every Rock Auto wrong listing, my pocket would not be fat enough for the
$ 25,000 + that I would have !!!!!

I am hunting a set of wheels for a 1957 thunderbird, can you help a fellow out ?

[51504bat]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I am hunting a set of wheels for a 1957 thunderbird, can you help a fellow out ?

Sent you a PM about wheels. Don't know if you'll be able to respond with so few posts.

[Patrick brophy]

Got your PM,Could not reply,but I need 14 inch wheels.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I am hunting a set of wheels for a 1957 thunderbird, can you help a fellow out ?

You are talking about a one year production -

B7S 1015-A 14in X 5in

Going to be hard to find and $$$ if you do.

Maybe start @ CTGI and/or CASCO?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ADDENDUM (Fr) -

HILL'S RESTORATIONS seems to have take-offs (used) occasionally and CASCO - NPD has repros available.

Don't get tricked as these (originals) are unique.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

You are talking about a one year production -

B7S 1015-A 14in X 5in

Going to be hard to find and $$$ if you do.

Maybe start @ CTGI and/or CASCO?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ADDENDUM (Fr) -

HILL'S RESTORATIONS seems to have take-offs (used) occasionally and CASCO - NPD has repros available.

Don't get tricked as these (originals) are unique.

I have inquired with Hills,they have a waiting list.

I have called several venders.One told me to hold on and he would look on the shelve next to the Hens teeth. He came back on the line and chuckled and said, nope still out of both.

I have a set of wheels on it now that came off a 1969 Mach 1. There has to be a spacer on both of the front trims or they will rub on the ball joint housing.

I will keep looking.I am getting ready to paint the car,wheel are the next step.Thanks KULTULZ

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I have inquired with Hills,they have a waiting list.

I have called several venders.One told me to hold on and he would look on the shelve next to the Hens teeth. He came back on the line and chuckled and said, nope still out of both.

I have a set of wheels on it now that came off a 1969 Mach 1. There has to be a spacer on both of the front trims or they will rub on the ball joint housing.

I will keep looking.I am getting ready to paint the car,wheel are the next step.

Thanks KULTULZ

Maybe contact NPD and/or CASCO. They supposedly have repros but I don't know how close. Originals were riveted and the FED outlawed that and they had to be welded afterwards. Don't know how far you want to go with it.


Are the MACH I wheels styled steel or plain? It used both 14in and 15in depending on how far you went with the power-train/trim level. They are deep offset. Some were 7" wide.


GOOD LUCK with it!

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I am hunting a set of wheels for a 1957 thunderbird, can you help a fellow out ?

Are you looking for 'factory original' wheels for a '57 T-Bird, or reproductions? The off-set & backspace options are very limited for clearing the ball joints in the front (photo 1) and fender skirts in the rear. Especially if the rear suspension needs all new bushings for the leaf springs, along with re-arched or replacement leaf springs.

Some wheel info at this link...
https://www.ctci.org/wheel-info-1957/
"1957 Thunderbirds 14″ X 5″ Kelsey Hayes (K.H.) wheels, no slots, no rivets and welded centers, used with 14″ X 7.50 tires. The 14″ X 5″ KH wheel and 14″ X 7.50 tires wheels were use on 1957 Thunderbirds to enhance ball joint & skirt clearance."

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Are you looking for 'factory original' wheels for a '57 T-Bird, or reproductions? The off-set & backspace options are very limited for clearing the ball joints in the front (photo 1) and fender skirts in the rear. Especially if the rear suspension needs all new bushings for the leaf springs, along with re-arched or replacement leaf springs.

Some wheel info at this link...
https://www.ctci.org/wheel-info-1957/
"1957 Thunderbirds 14″ X 5″ Kelsey Hayes (K.H.) wheels, no slots, no rivets and welded centers, used with 14″ X 7.50 tires. The 14″ X 5″ KH wheel and 14″ X 7.50 tires wheels were use on 1957 Thunderbirds to enhance ball joint & skirt clearance."

Thanks dmsfrr,

I have replaced both the front and rear bushing when I painted the frame.

Regardless, I still need the 14x5 wheel.

I am not sure what the difference would be between the repro and the factory, besides the dollar amount when buying them.
I am sure there are some reproduction stuff out there that you don't want to buy,I am just not aware of who, and where they are.

I am going for my lungs with this restoration, I don't want to cut corners on a few wheels. I did put disc brakes on the car and was hoping that the disc had moved the wheels out just enough. It did not.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

Thanks dmsfrr,

I have replaced both the front and rear bushing when I painted the frame.

Regardless, I still need the 14x5 wheel.

I am not sure what the difference would be between the repro and the factory, besides the dollar amount when buying them.
I am sure there are some reproduction stuff out there that you don't want to buy,I am just not aware of who, and where they are.

I am going for my lungs with this restoration, I don't want to cut corners on a few wheels. I did put disc brakes on the car and was hoping that the disc had moved the wheels out just enough. It did not.

Rubber bushings? I'm assuming you also replaced the ones in the rear spring hanger shackles to the frame. Those are at least as important as the ones in the eyelets inside the springs, if not more so, to help prevent side-to-side movement of the axle and tires rubbing on the skirts.

"not sure what the difference would be between the repro and the factory" The reproduction wheels are not 100% exact copies of the limited run originals. They're a bit more generic so they'll fit a wider range of cars and have been updated with required safety improvements over the years.

With disc brakes now on the car it may be possible original '57 wheels will not fit over the calipers.
Many disc brake conversion kits are advertised to fit '55 / '57 T-Birds. But depending on their source, the fine print sometimes excludes the factory original 14 inch wheels on 57's. You may be limited to reproduction style '57 wheels or even 15 inch wheels, depending on the brand of kit you installed.
If you purchased the disc brake kit from a T-Bird vendor that also uses them in their in-house restoration shop they should be able to give you more complete information.

If you know anyone near you with original wheels & (new) tires on their '57 T-Bird ask if you can borrow one or two for a couple hours to try them on the front of your car and see if they fit.
.

[KULTULZ]

If there was a disc brake upgrade, the OEM wheels will not work without spacers and depending on caliper size may require a 15" wheel.

I would go to the repro vendors and get the specs. You can also have a steel wheel custom made. Save the money and aggravation unless you come across a set for a future dedicated restoration $$$.

Which brake kit did you use? Is this a dedicated resto? If not, OEM wheels are not needed IMO. Also, the OEM KH wheels are not vented for disc, another consideration.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

If there was a disc brake upgrade, the OEM wheels will not work without spacers and depending on caliper size may require a 15" wheel.

I would go to the repro vendors and get the specs. You can also have a steel wheel custom made. Save the money and aggravation unless you come across a set for a future dedicated restoration $$$.

Which brake kit did you use? Is this a dedicated resto? If not, OEM wheels are not needed IMO. Also, the OEM KH wheels are not vented for disc, another consideration.

I bought the disc brakes from Hill's restorations.They only deal in Thunderbird parts and restorations.The setup was complete and packed in three boxes.i did not see any brand names,however everything fit like a glove.
I have a full set of 1957 Thunderbird wheel covers.I like the way they look.
I also like the Kelsey Hayes wire wheel,however a set of those run well over $2500.00, with out the wide white tires..
Since I have the wheel covers I thought that was the better way to go.
I have been hesitant about the reproduction wheels since I have not heard anything about them.
One gets a little gun shy when you ask Thunderbird part venders about them and get a "we wouldn't sell brand x" or "if it don't have fomoco on it we will not buy it,and neither should you".

That said, is there a reproduction company that sells a decent wheel,and if so where are they located.

[51504bat]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I bought the disc brakes from Hill's restorations.They only deal in Thunderbird parts and restorations.The setup was complete and packed in three boxes.i did not see any brand names,however everything fit like a glove.
I have a full set of 1957 Thunderbird wheel covers.I like the way they look.
I also like the Kelsey Hayes wire wheel,however a set of those run well over $2500.00, with out the wide white tires..
Since I have the wheel covers I thought that was the better way to go.
I have been hesitant about the reproduction wheels since I have not heard anything about them.
One gets a little gun shy when you ask Thunderbird part venders about them and get a "we wouldn't sell brand x" or "if it don't have fomoco on it we will not buy it,and neither should you".

That said, is there a reproduction company that sells a decent wheel,and if so where are they located.

You might try Wheel Smith in Corona, CA
https://thewheelsmith.net/

The Wheelsmith wheel line includes custom and standard sized Wire, Rallye, Billet Aluminum, Smoothie Steel, Artillery, Vintage and OEM wheels.

[KULTULZ]

This subject is really starting to get interesting and since I continue to be trapped in a steep learning curve ...

You say the DISC KIT came from Hill. Did they say the kit would work with OEM wheels or did you have to change wheels (spacer kit) or you did not have the correct wheel (or same size wheel) to begin with?

While I like the look of the later BIRD KH WIRES, to me they do not look appropriate on an early BIRD (IMO). Maybe if an appropriate center cap was available instead of the spinner.

Are you familiar with the wire wheel covers of that era? Are you thinking of using the 57 skirts?

OTHERS - All of this discussion pertains to 57 BIRD only as the wheel sizing was unique to 57 BIRD only.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

This subject is really starting to get interesting and since I continue to be trapped in a steep learning curve ...

You say the DISC KIT came from Hill. Did they say the kit would work with OEM wheels or did you have to change wheels (spacer kit) or you did not have the correct wheel (or same size wheel) to begin with?

While I like the look of the later BIRD KH WIRES, to me they do not look appropriate on an early BIRD (IMO). Maybe if an appropriate center cap was available instead of the spinner.

Are you familiar with the wire wheel covers of that era? Are you thinking of using the 57 skirts?

OTHERS - All of this discussion pertains to 57 BIRD only as the wheel sizing was unique to 57 BIRD only.

I have never had the correct wheels. When I obtained the car it had a set of wheels off of ,I was told , a 1969 Mach 1.
Both the front wheels had a half inch spacer behind them to keep them from rubbing.
When I purchased the disc setup from Hill's, they made no mention of having to change wheels, or for that matter use a spacer with the disc brakes.
I did inquire at Hill's about wheels for a 1957 Thunderbird.They informed me that they had a list.That quote gave me little hope.
I am planning on using the fender skirts.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I have never had the correct wheels. When I obtained the car it had a set of wheels off of ,I was told , a 1969 Mach 1.
Both the front wheels had a half inch spacer behind them to keep them from rubbing.
When I purchased the disc setup from Hill's, they made no mention of having to change wheels, or for that matter use a spacer with the disc brakes.
I did inquire at Hill's about wheels for a 1957 Thunderbird.They informed me that they had a list.That quote gave me little hope.
I am planning on using the fender skirts.

The tech support folks (or the owner) at Hill's should be able to tell you which wheels you need to fit over their brand of new calipers, and also behind the skirts. They've put those disc brake kits on customers cars.

https://hillsresto.com/contact/

I believe the oem style wheels should have FoMoCo and KH markings on them between the lugnut holes.

[KULTULZ]

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The tech support folks (or the owner) at Hill's should be able to tell you which wheels you need to fit over their brand of new calipers, and behind the skirts.

No, they should make that known in their cataloging description before someone buys the kit and finds out the OEM wheel will not fit. I see no such warning in Hill's cataloging.

If someone has the correct wheels and then finds out he needs a wheel swap isn't the way to go about it.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I have never had the correct wheels. When I obtained the car it had a set of wheels off of ,I was told , a 1969 Mach 1. Both the front wheels had a half inch spacer behind them to keep them from rubbing.

Are the wheels stamped steel - 14 or 15"? There were several different widths in that period. The spacers were to prevent the rim/tire from rubbing the ball joint(s)?

When I purchased the disc setup from Hill's, they made no mention of having to change wheels, or for that matter use a spacer with the disc brakes.

So one would assume the OEM wheel would clear the caliper.

I am planning on using the fender skirts.

So you are going to need either the original or a replacement with the correct offset for the rear..

One thing though, their kit uses the KH 4-Piston Caliper and if the correct sized caliper was chosen (65/66 MUST) you have a greater chance of finding a workable wheel.

You are going to use the 57 deluxe full wheel cover and not the wire wheel cover?

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by 51504bat

You might try Wheel Smith in Corona, CA
https://thewheelsmith.net/

The Wheelsmith wheel line includes custom and standard sized Wire, Rallye, Billet Aluminum, Smoothie Steel, Artillery, Vintage and OEM wheels.

Thanks 51504bat,I will give them a call.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Are the wheels stamped steel - 14 or 15"? There were several different widths in that period. The spacers were to prevent the rim/tire from rubbing the ball joint(s)?


So one would assume the OEM wheel would clear the caliper.


So you are going to need either the original or a replacement with the correct offset for the rear..

One thing though, their kit uses the KH 4-Piston Caliper and if the correct sized caliper was chosen (65/66 MUST) you have a greater chance of finding a workable wheel.

You are going to use the 57 deluxe full wheel cover and not the wire wheel cover?

The wheels I have now are not marked 14 or 15,they a marked 9mc on one side and a6 on the other. The tires however are 14 inch.
Without the spacer, the tire rubs on the ball joint.
The full Deluxe wheel cover with the white paint, not the wire wheel cover.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

This subject is really starting to get interesting and since I continue to be trapped in a steep learning curve ...
. . .

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

. . .
You are going to use the 57 deluxe full wheel cover and not the wire wheel cover?

'57 T-Birds did not have an original option wire style wheelcover for their 14" wheels, just one style of full wheelcover.
'55 & '56 T-Birds with their standard 15' wheels did have an optional 2 piece wire style wheelcover. Red centers in '55 and white centers in '56, provided by the dog-dish center caps for those years.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I have never had the correct wheels. When I obtained the car it had a set of wheels off of ,I was told , a 1969 Mach 1.
Both the front wheels had a half inch spacer behind them to keep them from rubbing.
When I purchased the disc setup from Hill's, they made no mention of having to change wheels, or for that matter use a spacer with the disc brakes.
. . .

Did you tell them the '57 Bird you were buying the disc brake kit for didn't have original wheels and ask their advice before buying the brake kit?
If not, they likely assumed it had original wheels.

[KULTULZ]

I stand corrected.

TURBINE WHEEL COVER

[miker98038]

I only know about the 15" wheels on my 55 bird, but some dimensions are going to be similar.

The early Ford rims had a smaller hub opening than the later wheels. On disc brake conversions using Granada rotors, the center hub is turned down to allow the wheel to fit. Later wheels that center on the lug nuts go on. I've read, but don't know that the early wheels should not have the center hole opened up. It's a safety/cracking issue as regards the wheel construction.

If the spacer is to clear the upper ball joint, the problem is probably the back spacing. Since it's a tire side wall problem it's partially dependent on the tire. My bird has 15x 7" front wheels with 3 1/2 in backspace. With 225/60 tires, I have under 1/2" to the upper ball joint from the sidewall. Some have said a 4" backspace will work, in my case that would require very little sidewall bulge.

If the tire was dismounted would the wheel go on without the spacers? Because if it won't it's likely hitting the caliper. I've been involved with several 14" disc brake conversions for OT cars where you must fit later model "disc brake" wheels to make the conversions. These were all GM products. But you do need to know caliper clearance.

Some years back Wheelsmith made me a set of 15x7 rims, custom backspace, to put 10" cheater slicks on the back of the bird. That allowed me to run the same small Ford center cap (dog dish) front and rear on stock fronts. But that was the more common 15" wheel. They're worth a phone call.

Given Hill's reputation, I'd bet stock 14" wheels fit fine. But before you spend a bunch on either modified or stock wheels double check that. Knowing the dimension of the current wheels, per dmsfrr post above would provide some clues.