Y Izzit?

[700rpm]

Why is it a guy will spend $10-$18k for a car and not spend $55 for the Restoration Guides, $35 for The Les Andrews red book, and $40 for a copy of the Ford Service Bulletins, which together would answer 92.7% of his questions and confusions about his new acquisition?

I'm not complaining, because there is also a lot of information to be gained here from knowledgeable and experienced A guys, and even after 55 years in the hobby I learn things, but not everything can be fully explained on this site. It just seems curious to me that people don't avail themselves of these resources.

[C26Pinelake]

Many of the people in our hobby did not pay $10-18,000 for their cars as you suggest. They either inherited their cars or bought them for 5K off Craigslist. Just in case you don't know it, there is a high number of unemployed persons in the United States. These unemployed, veterans and pensioners are useing their money to pay rent, mortgages, buy groceries, clothing and medicine. Not everyone reaches old age with a company pension. The average Social Security is $1400 per month. Also many young men are trying to raise a family and pay for education costs. To suggest that everyone has a few hundred dollars to spend in a frivilous manner is ludicrous. Take time to look around you and do a reality check. Life is not a bed of roses for a large number of people in our hobby. So to these people I say ask your questions and don't be embarrassed because you can't afford the luxuries in life! Most Barners will be happy to answer your questions and are not upset that you either can't afford or choose not to spend your money on the aforementioned books. Wayne

[updraught]

How do I load them onto my phone?

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Why should they, when they can ask on a message board? It's much easier then buying and reading. Plus aren't books old school, out dated?

[PatrickGrant]

Just bought 3 of Les's books from Eric Wagner because I'm afraid of people and lions !

[RUNNERBUN]

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Originally Posted by 700rpm

Why is it a guy will spend $10-$18k for a car and not spend $55 for the Restoration Guides, $35 for The Les Andrews red book, and $40 for a copy of the Ford Service Bulletins:

Those three books will set you back at least $260 Aust. dollars plus postage to buy here in Australia, is one very good reason.
I have no doubt that they will be most useful to own and a great source of information but the resource of great knowledge here on the Barn can and will solve problems that a book cannot, as personal help from those that have experienced the same problem is invaluable. Ask a question here and you can get many different possible solutions offered.
What does annoy me is when a question is asked and a reply to the OP is buy the book. Why bother answering if you can't offer help. Is that not what this forum is about.
JMHO

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

Why is it a guy will spend $10-$18k for a car and not spend $55 for the Restoration Guides, $35 for The Les Andrews red book, and $40 for a copy of the Ford Service Bulletins, which together would answer 92.7% of his questions and confusions about his new acquisition?

I'm not complaining, because there is also a lot of information to be gained here from knowledgeable and experienced A guys, and even after 55 years in the hobby I learn things, but not everything can be fully explained on this site. It just seems curious to me that people don't avail themselves of these resources.

Ray,

We're people. People like to interact. Different people learn in different ways, or in a combination of ways. Some people are also lazy and prefer a quick fix rather than try to understand stuff from first principles. People don't always act rationally.

You strike me as a knowledgable guy. I suspect you already know all of this.

I'm a relatively new Model A owner, but I don't have a mechanical background nor am I confident in tackling new mechanical or electrical problems. I've bought both Les Andrews books, I consult various online info sources, and am about to purchase the revised Restoration Guidelines, but I don't imagine they will stop me from seeking out opinions and experience here! Adults learn in a range of ways, myself included. It's all grist to the mill!

I'll turn your question back on you. Given the frustrations you expressed in your original post, why are YOU such an active FordBarn member?

[Manager]

Just an example I was fixing my exhaust manifold to pipe leak the other day. Searched it on here and found 6 opinions and ideas and took the best info out off all of them . No book could give you 6 real life up to date cases to get info from. Not to mention if an error is made in a book it could be years and buy the next edition till you find out the hard way. I don't have the Andrew or whoever he is books because it's obvious from the posts about the errors in them that you are better off without them.Far better real life up to date last 7.3% info here.The first 92.7% is probably common sence anyway.

[bnchief]

I have the books and have read them and have overlooked some things in them or some things in the books can be wrong such as torque etc in Les's book also sometimes a little more detail. I ask and read the books because there are a lot of helpful, people here who know a lot and an extra idea has helped me a lot along the way.

[pooch]

Old farts who are tired of the same old questions.

They forget they were newbies once.

[2manycars]

Originally Posted by pooch

Old farts who are tired of the same old questions.

They forget they were newbies once.

That is why some of the knowledgeable people have left, or seldom post. Most of the new people questions have indeed been asked and answered many times, and could be easily found in the search option. People take the path of least resistance.

[31 Model A]

Having books on hand is all well and good but..................what about people who do not have the mechanical ability, the place, the tools or in some cases, the time to do mechanical work? Do Formula 1 drivers do the work or do they do the driving......drivers do what the do best and the mechanics do what they do best by KNOWING AND UNDERSTANDING the mechanics of an automobile?

I bought the books as recommended by forum members, Complete Service Bulletins, Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook Vol 1, Complete Model "A" Ford Restoration Manual and they have been informative, the very minuet times I've had them open, one I've never used because I'll have to buy the book that explains everything that's inside, I think those books are titled "For Dummies".

If you are mechanically inclined, have the space, have all the tools and have the time, get the books....if you don't, join a Model A forum, a Model A Club and find a mechanic who does, then you do what you do best, enjoy DRIVING your Model A.

[eagle]

One thing that would make the forum easier and better would be if the posters would enter an ACCURATE title line. Look at the subjects going right now. Some you can very clearly determine the subject, some you cannot. Example. "Y izzit" how is it possible to get from that title any pertinent info about the post?

[TerryO]

I'm not complaining, because there is also a lot of information to be gained here from knowledgeable and experienced A guys, and even after 55 years in the hobby I learn things, but not everything can be fully explained on this site. It just seems curious to me that people don't avail themselves of these resources.

Like you said everything can't be fully explained here but on the other hand everything can't be explained in the book either. At least here you can ask for more details if necessary and I have yet had a book answer back when I say "can you explain that in more detail?" I don't usually have to ask questions here because others have already asked and I just read until I find the answer.

TOB

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by eagle

One thing that would make the forum easier and better would be if the posters would enter an ACCURATE title line. Look at the subjects going right now. Some you can very clearly determine the subject, some you cannot. Example. "Y izzit" how is it possible to get from that title any pertinent info about the post?

You are right but some guys try to be " cool " ! But they are not. Sometimes cool and foolish have the same meaning! Wayne

[davehc]

Taking a line from post #3 , " old school , out dated " , heck that's what I like about this car / hobby / and forum . Sorry , just my two cents .

[Licensed to kill]

Being one that has none of the books mentioned I can answer for myself at least. I have several books that i have bought for specific projects and they all boarder on useless. What I find is that, for the most part, these kinds of books are great at covering all of the obvious stuff that anyone that knows the open end of a wrench from the box end could easily figure out, but when it comes to the obscure or not so obvious stuff, they either overlook it all together or, if they touch on it, they breeze over it leaving out critical details necessary to completing the job correctly. I also agree with the poster that suggested that people like to interact. If I read something in a book and don't quite understand what they are saying, it's difficult to ask the author for some clarification. Not so much on a forum.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

Why is it a guy will spend $10-$18k for a car and not spend $55 for the Restoration Guides, $35 for The Les Andrews red book, and $40 for a copy of the Ford Service Bulletins, which together would answer 92.7% of his questions and confusions about his new acquisition?

I'm not complaining, because there is also a lot of information to be gained here from knowledgeable and experienced A guys, and even after 55 years in the hobby I learn things, but not everything can be fully explained on this site. It just seems curious to me that people don't avail themselves of these resources.

I find it rather ironic that you are critical that Barners don't spend a couple hundred dollars whereas you recently made your yearly post on how you can save a few pennies on antifreeze! Is this not somewhat hypocritical? I think so. Wayne

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

Why should they, when they can ask on a message board? It's much easier then buying and reading. Plus aren't books old school, out dated?

I don't know about easier but it is cheaper. I have those books and more.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by RUNNERBUN

What does annoy me is when a question is asked and a reply to the OP is buy the book. Why bother answering if you can't offer help. Is that not what this forum is about.
JMHO

X2

Second most common non answer is "Do a search".

Its perfectly OK NOT to answer a question if it bothers you that you know the answer and the poster doesn't. No need to make the poster feel small.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by 2manycars

That is why some of the knowledgeable people have left, or seldom post. Most of the new people questions have indeed been asked and answered many times, and could be easily found in the search option. People take the path of least resistance.

I would guess that many newbies have little or no experience with on-line forums and have no idea there is a search function and how to use it.

Merely telling a newbie to buy the book or do a search doesn't do much to encourage new Model A owners.

[Jim M]

The first thing I bought after I found this site was the books. They are very helpful and have many illustrations which I find great. But I would love to see Les Andrews remove a rear brake assembly using his instructions. A couple of critical steps are missing. That being said the manuals are fine but the info here is outstanding! The first thing (well maybe second thing....lol) I do when I get up in the morning is read the forum. Check it 3 or 4 more times a day. Love all the info and patience of most all of the posters. Lets not kick a good horse in the ......!

[midgetracer]

Amen Dick. I could not have said it better. Let's not be a bunch of snobby old codgers.

[mshmodela]

As an owner a Model A for nearly 3 years I own all but the guidelines... Everyone thinks differently, and as very new owner, I have years more to learn... I do agree, folks should buy the books... Make's for great bathroom reading

[Pinesdune]

I've got the books, and still ask dumb questions once in a while. And I thank all those for putting up with my stupid moments [emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[C26Pinelake]

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Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

I would guess that many newbies have little or no experience with on-line forums and have no idea there is a search function and how to use it.

Merely telling a newbie to buy the book or do a search doesn't do much to encourage new Model A owners.

Those who have tremendous expertise have not complained. wayne

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

Why is it a guy will spend $10-$18k for a car and not spend $55 for the Restoration Guides, $35 for The Les Andrews red book, and $40 for a copy of the Ford Service Bulletins, which together would answer 92.7% of his questions and confusions about his new acquisition?

I'm not complaining, because there is also a lot of information to be gained here from knowledgeable and experienced A guys, and even after 55 years in the hobby I learn things, but not everything can be fully explained on this site. It just seems curious to me that people don't avail themselves of these resources.

Bottom line is if you don't like answering questions, step aside and let the experts who never complain step forward! Wayne

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by midgetracer

Let's not be a bunch of snobby old codgers.

I'm OK with that as long as you STAY OFF MY LAWN!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Having an accurate title line is very important to be able to find it when doing a "SEARCH".
Also, when posting a picture I have started saying "here's a picture of......" rather than just saying "here's the.......".
This way if you are looking for a picture of something, you can also enter "picture" in the "search", to help find the posts with pictures.

I think the Les Andrew's book is a good book. I know about the pan bolt torque being too high, as it should be inch pounds, rather than 20 foot pounds, but I'm not aware of a lot of other mistakes.

Even after being on the forum for a long time, I don't always have good luck using the search feature, but an accurate title line will help.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by eagle

one thing that would make the forum easier and better would be if the posters would enter an accurate title line. Look at the subjects going right now. Some you can very clearly determine the subject, some you cannot. Example. "y izzit" how is it possible to get from that title any pertinent info about the post?

x 100 !!!

[patnmand]

I'm new to Model As, not mechanically minded at all, and have the Les Andrews book. It's good but not enough. For example the disassembly of front brakes says things like "Remove the springs". Well, I've not done that before and they're not exactly easy. Les doesn't give you information like that. Also, things like wheel nut torque settings - nothing in Les Andrews but a quick forum search brought it up. The books are good but nothing beats real life experience and that's what you garner from forums like these.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by patnmand

I'm new to Model As, not mechanically minded at all, and have the Les Andrews book. It's good but not enough. For example the disassembly of front brakes says things like "Remove the springs". Well, I've not done that before and they're not exactly easy. Les doesn't give you information like that. Also, things like wheel nut torque settings - nothing in Les Andrews but a quick forum search brought it up. The books are good but nothing beats real life experience and that's what you garner from forums like these.

Some brake springs can be very hard to install and remove.
I've learned it's best to wear a good pair of leather gloves, and on some I've had to clamp onto the spring with a Vise Grip then pry against the side of the jaw with a long screwdriver.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

x 100 !!!

I agree that it was a dumb subject line! How can you be critical of others when you do something like that ? Wayne

[Jim M]

Quite by accident I bought a pair of Craftsman needle nose plyers where the needle nose was at a 90 degree to the handles and the handles are about a foot long. I struggled with brake springs all afternoon one time trying everything. Somehow I tried those plyers and the spring went on first shot. The handles are long enough you can use both hands to grip and pull and with the tip at a 90 you are not hitting up against the other brake parts. Those plyers and now one of my first "go to" tools for anything that needs a good grip and pull!

[SeaSlugs]

I usually just use a screwdriver flat or pointed - sometimes one works before the other - and needle nose to sometimes push it on if it didnt fully snap in. If youve ever done "modern" drum brakes they arent a whole lot different.

I like Les Andrews book - sometimes it gets repetitive showing you the same first few steps taking up a page or more for every procedure. Its a book that will get the job done if youve never done it before but theres usually a tried and true other way to go about things that comes from experience.

I do need to order the new judging standards as my old version is vague in some parts (especially AA stuff). Wheres the best place to get it from and how?

[Quigley1930]

Bratton's brake shoe installation tool (2595) works well lso especially when it's a half mile away in your friends toolbox

Sewall

[ian Simpson]

Originally Posted by updraught

How do I load them onto my phone?

Scan them into a PDF and e-mail them to yourself, or put them in the cloud, etc.

Also, I agree with post 26, above, too often the books tell you what to do not how to do it.

[C26Pinelake]

2 five stars and 3 one stars ! Not good. Wayne

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

Merely telling a newbie to buy the book or do a search doesn't do much to encourage new Model A owners.

And on the other hand if they never have to use them they won't know how to use them or their importance.

The best answer is to at least give them the answer and/or the link to at least one thread as a start in the their quest to find the answer using searh and let them know that additional information is available at their finger tips with no waiting for it.

We all know that the search feature is not the easiest to locate past information for a variety of reasons, some user some software. The most important thing is that they get the information.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Great answer, Mike. Maybe there should be a "sticky" that shows how to get to and use the search function (including the Advanced Search) that could be referenced in the reply along with an answer or link to a thread with the answer.

[Licensed to kill]

Personally, if I ask a question and the response I get is "The search engine is your friend" or something to that effect, I just go somewhere else for the information, another forum, or just google. I've left a few forums because of ignorant responses like that. It's like giving your waitress a .05 tip. It's way worse that giving nothing. Just about everything you could want to know can be found with google INCLUDING the information within forum archives which, if everyone used google would render forums needless and nothing more than archived information to be mined. Another interesting observation from someone that is/has been on many forums. Every once in a while, someone will come on and complain about lurkers, people that are registered but never post and sometimes even suggest that there should be a minimum # of posts before certain things can be accessed, like search, classifieds etc. It's often the same guys that, when a question is posted replies with "Do a search". People are a funny animal and I certainly don't envy those that own/run these public forums. JMO. Thanks for reading.

[forever4]

I am going to start suggesting people just "search the cloud".

This whole business of the "the cloud" is nonsense.
It is just a server somewhere, just as it always has been.
It's either on your own device hardware, or on a server somewhere else.

The "cloud"? haha lol

I have been thinking about making my own cloud using a 3D printer as someone recently suggested!

[updraught]

Originally Posted by ian Simpson

Scan them into a PDF and e-mail them to yourself, or put them in the cloud, etc.

That would be illegal. I wouldn't want to end up in a US jail. I've seen Midnight Express.

[forever4]

It seems that American Society really has embraced the Age of Socialist Entitlement, where the 'haves' are expected to spoon feed the 'have-nots', whether it is the transfer of money and hard assets, or knowledge and skills.

What ever happened to personal ambition, motivation, and drive?
What about self satisfaction for knowledge acquired and skills developed and personal achievement?

Often accused hoarder of knowledge, parts, and skills.
I like helping people who appreciate help, and are also willing to help themselves.

[updraught]

Don't know where others are at, but I get a couple of hundred emails each day, and I'm expected to read a bucket load of stuff for work. The last thing I want to do after hours is read a book. I just want to know ... what I need to know ... and get on with it.

My "dream" is to have enough time to sit in a library and read books on anything I'm interested in. It is on my life bucket list.

I actually have a couple of the Les Andrews books I bought in the US a couple of years ago. In fact, US customs seemed to take a particular interest in them on leaving the country. They cut the lock off my bag, dumped the contents, stuffed it back in and left a note.

We've run out of storage space for books, so I have to search for them.

[31 Model A]

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Originally Posted by forever4

It seems that American Society really has embraced the Age of Socialist Entitlement, where the 'haves' are expected to spoon feed the 'have-nots', whether it is the transfer of money and hard assets, or knowledge and skills.

What ever happened to personal ambition, motivation, and drive?
What about self satisfaction for knowledge acquired and skills developed and personal achievement?

Often accused hoarder of knowledge, parts, and skills.
I like helping people who appreciate help, and are also willing to help themselves.

Damn!!! Your attitude towards life sucks, is it only for Model A owners or life today in general? If it is so damn fecked up as you believe you are living it, maybe it's time for you to seek out an end to your disparity beliefs.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by 31 Model A

Damn!!! Your attitude towards life sucks, is it only for Model A owners or life today in general? If it is so damn fecked up as you believe you are living it, maybe it's time for you to seek out an end to your disparity beliefs.

?

That's not the way I see it. I agree that in today's society there are many who expect the government (us taxpayers) to take care of them. A person should work and pay for what they get. That isn't expecting too much.

[31 Model A]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

?

That's not the way I see it. I agree that in today's society there are many who expect the government (us taxpayers) to take care of them. A person should work and pay for what they get. That isn't expecting too much.

I agree 100% Tom, that's why I asked if his comment was for Model A owners or life in general. Today's society and way of life was laid on the ballot boxes a few months ago, here people come for help, buying some books is not always the answer. If a few want to use that answer when a question is asked, why are they here?

[Pinesdune]

The sad part is that in today's "modern" lifestyles, the last generation was brought up on TV, microwave suppers, and computers. Where both parents have to work to make ends meet because everyone is trying to keep up with the joneses and they commute for hours every day. So when these guys head out to their garage to tinker on their A, it's to let go of their stresses and try an end the day with a "simple" accomplishment (which with old iron....seldom happens). They don't have the skills taught from hours of playing in the shop "watching dad do it" because their dad was to busy providing for them. So they come to "the quick place for help" , "the place where "grandpas" reside and ask for help. Yes they can go to a book, yes they can do the searches, but some of these guys push paper and stare at computers all day. I bet they'd jump at joining a local club, but life gets in the way.

That's just my take on it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PatrickGrant]

My books get really trashed because I use them on the work bench when I'm "not" in the clouds. Resale value never plummets as fast as the value of the dollar. I'm addicted to this forum, but tend to search old posts and try not to make waves to erode the California coast. Good day @ -12*. Time to do a little book work from twin arm chair with remote !

[31 Model A]

If one is mechanically inclined, has the tools, space, time...then BUY THE BOOKS. If not, save the money and pay someone else to do the work, who has the torque wrench and the shop. If something is not running right, come here and ask, you'll get answers and not always just....BUY THE BOOKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[C26Pinelake]

The members that say buy the books or do a search are not the better members. The better Barners will do their best to help you. The others we can do without because they usually have a weak knowledge base to begin with. Wayne.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Pinesdune

The sad part is that in today's "modern" lifestyles, the last generation was brought up on TV, microwave suppers, and computers. Where both parents have to work to make ends meet because everyone is trying to keep up with the joneses and they commute for hours every day.

Both parents usually have to work to be able to afford a house anymore...its not like 1970 where a college degree you could have a new car and a 4 bedroom house right out of college. Now you graduate $120,000+ in debt that you must start making payments on 6 months after you graduate. Get a job (maybe - everyone wants experience) making 35-50K a year while paying anywhere from 500-1200 month rent on an apartment on top of all the other usual other bills (god forbid a car payment in there too). So the only house working parents can afford is well away from their job. Its not wanting nice things its trying to do what our parents did (raise a family) with half the money and double the debt. My parents could work during the summer and be able to afford tuition as a full time student. Tell me what summer job an inexperienced college student could get and make $30,000(in state - add $20,000 to that for out of state residents) in 3 months to pay for college??? Heck even a cheap 4 year university is $16000 a year...Summer job paying $8 or even $10 an hour isnt going to make a dent in that. MIGHT be able to buy $200 a piece text book...

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by forever4
It seems that American Society really has embraced the Age of Socialist Entitlement, where the 'haves' are expected to spoon feed the 'have-nots', whether it is the transfer of money and hard assets, or knowledge and skills.

What ever happened to personal ambition, motivation, and drive?
What about self satisfaction for knowledge acquired and skills developed and personal achievement?

Often accused hoarder of knowledge, parts, and skills.
I like helping people who appreciate help, and are also willing to help themselves.

31 Model A
Damn!!! Your attitude towards life sucks, is it only for Model A owners or life today in general? If it is so damn fecked up as you believe you are living it, maybe it's time for you to seek out an end to your disparity beliefs.


First off, forever 4 had it right.
I don’t know if 31 Model A meant his reply as a joke, or if he didn’t understand the post. I sure didn’t understand his post.

One thing I do understand is what one of the causes of the Age of Socialist Entitlement is, and that is this quote from the Leader of the Free World: “We are going to redistribute the wealth!”

And thanks for the help, Vince!

[31 Model A]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

Originally Posted by forever4
It seems that American Society really has embraced the Age of Socialist Entitlement, where the 'haves' are expected to spoon feed the 'have-nots', whether it is the transfer of money and hard assets, or knowledge and skills.

What ever happened to personal ambition, motivation, and drive?
What about self satisfaction for knowledge acquired and skills developed and personal achievement?

Often accused hoarder of knowledge, parts, and skills.
I like helping people who appreciate help, and are also willing to help themselves.

31 Model A
Damn!!! Your attitude towards life sucks, is it only for Model A owners or life today in general? If it is so damn fecked up as you believe you are living it, maybe it's time for you to seek out an end to your disparity beliefs.


First off, forever 4 had it right.
I don’t know if 31 Model A meant his reply as a joke, or if he didn’t understand the post. I sure didn’t understand his post.

One thing I do understand is what one of the causes of the Age of Socialist Entitlement is, and that is this quote from the Leader of the Free World: “We are going to redistribute the wealth!”

And thanks for the help, Vince!

Read my post #41