40 Opera Coupe

[Chris Nelson]

I have often heard of the 1940 "Opera" Coupe. Is this differant than the regular 1940 coupe? Or is there a special coupe that carries this designation?

[40cpe]

The "opera" coupe had a small, fold-down seat on each side panel behind the door. I understand that they were officially "business coupes". The coupes without the fold-down seats had a parcel shelf running from below the window and over the space behind the seat.

[Kube]

"40cpe" is correct.
Ford did not make an Opera coupe in 1940. The public gave the car with the rear auxiliary seats that name.

[53F100Jeffie]

My father in law has an unmolested 40 Coupe with the jump seats. I believe it was used by salesmen back in the forties. His came out of Oklahoma. It's black and was in my wedding, 19 years ago. I will try and get some pictures.

[joel]

The business coupe did have some differences frome the 5W coupe. the seats are very different and the floor pans are different. The business coupe has a spit back seat like the 2dr sedan and of course the jump seats.

[OldDad]

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Here's a photo.

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/f...pera_Seats.jpg

Floor pan is different indeed. It's odd, but the common terminology was all backwards in the old days. A "business coupe" referred to the package tray version in the common vernacular (here in socal) back when, although this had no relation to the official Ford terminology. I believe the "opera coupe" terminology was derived from Cadillacs of the era, which referred to the fold- down seats used at the opera to put a little upscale shine on their product.

[gerrald meacham]

good info

[Terry,OH]

Business Coupe, has the opera seats. 5-Window Coupe, has the package shelf.

[HOTROD_WILLIE]

Thanks

[Gumpy]

I once owned a standard business coupe...with a split front seat.... thanks for the info.....gump

[Gumpy]

Paul Bradley can also explain the differences in the jump seat coupe as opposed to the package tray coupe...they are built into the floors he manufactures!

[MuskegonFlatheadFan]

Bob Drakes catalog explains it pretty well.
Go to page 2 here; http://bobdrake.com/Project_40/40_Sh...er_7-12-11.pdf

[Flat Ernie]

I thought the term "Opera Coupe" was a GM thing - Buick, I think. We're stuck with it, it seems...I have one!

[barryfromvictoria]

the correct name is opera seats, not business seats or auxilary seats or jump seats, according to the 40 ford body parts book i bet the partsman in 1940 called them opera seats that fit in O1A-67A standard or O1A-67B deluxe which technically was called a business coupe. i think if you say opera coupe it clears up any confusion as to what kind of coupe you have. if you say business coupe 99% of the people are going to assume you have the one without seats in the back. this must have been noticed by ford because in `41 they simply called them deluxe coupe or deluxe coupe w/ jump seats. in `47 they called the coupe a business coupe and jump seats were not offered. in`49 and up the business coupe had no rear seats at all and was the same body as the club coupe.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by barryfromvictoria

the correct name is opera seats, not business seats or auxilary seats or jump seats, according to the 40 ford body parts book i bet the partsman in 1940 called them opera seats that fit in O1A-67A standard or O1A-67B deluxe which technically was called a business coupe. i think if you say opera coupe it clears up any confusion as to what kind of coupe you have. if you say business coupe 99% of the people are going to assume you have the one without seats in the back. this must have been noticed by ford because in `41 they simply called them deluxe coupe or deluxe coupe w/ jump seats. in `47 they called the coupe a business coupe and jump seats were not offered. in`49 and up the business coupe had no rear seats at all and was the same body as the club coupe.

Barry,
While your reasoning may in fact clear up some confusion for a number of folks, there are those of us (that seek accuracy) that may find (your idea) to in fact add confusion.
The fact remains the 40 coupe with the auxiliary seats was termed a business coupe. Like it or not, ol' Henry owned the place and was able to call them whatever he chose.
Why perpetuate a common misconception?
For years we were taught Pluto was a planet. Now we know that is not true. Do we continue to teach kids that it is simply because they may understand it better?
We have known for decades that Columbus did not in fact discover America. Do we continue to teach our kids that he did because it 'fits' in to the common myths easier?
While the list of examples goes on and on my reasoning remains the same. That is, we know the correct terminology. Call them whatever you choose but given the opportunity, teach correctly please.

With due respect,
Mike

[ford38v8]

Barry & Mike, I picked up on Barry's reference to the '40 Body Parts book, and am confused as to whether he's saying the book calls the seats Opera or not. Without seeing it, I'm guessing that it does not, but let's hear it from the book? As far as I know, from the Ford sources I've seen, they are Auxiliary seats, and were available as an option on the Ford & Ford DeLuxe Business Coupes. I would think though, that no matter what anyone has read from any source, the Body Parts book would have the last word in listing the official name and part number. This goes back to the same kind of confusion that is fostered by staged photos for such as Owners Reference Books, Newspaper publicity shots, and the like.

Note: I have no idea why this happens... I post a reply and it gets lost in space sometimes. This just happened with this post again. Weird things happen...

[Kube]

[QUOTE=ford38v8;289531]Barry & Mike, I picked up on Barry's reference to the '40 Body Parts book, and am confused as to whether he's saying the book calls the seats Opera or not. Without seeing it, I'm guessing that it does not, but let's hear it from the book? As far as I know, from the Ford sources I've seen, they are Auxiliary seats, and were available as an option on the Ford & Ford DeLuxe Business Coupes. I would think though, that no matter what anyone has read from any source, the Body Parts book would have the last word in listing the official name and part number. This goes back to the same kind of confusion that is fostered by staged photos for such as Owners Reference Books, Newspaper publicity shots, and the like.


Hi Alan,
As you are acutely aware, what parts books, sales catalogs, etc. may or may not term something has little to do with the 'reality' of things.
Many would be wise to recall that parts books were written for the Ford dealer parts counter man and NOT the public consumption. They (parts books) were written by a group far removed (different) than the advertising department. That department (advertising) placed the terminology on our vehicles. I.E. business coupe, coupe, etc. for public consumption.

Thus, the name given by the advertising company is the one we must accept as the proper name.
The parts book does in fact call for 'opera seats'. On the other hand, the salesman's book calls them 'auxiliary seats'. Call them whatever one would please, the cars are COUPE and BUSINESS COUPE

[Lawson Cox]

A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.

[Hamtown Al]

Finally! A man that knows what he's talking about! Good summary, Lawson.
JMO, Al

[barryfromvictoria]

kube and ford 38 with all due respect in your own words the last word is the body parts books. i hope this clears up the doubts that you have and can use it in the new `40 ford book. in the FORD MERCURY BODY PARTS LIST JULY 1940 DETROIT MICH. on page 105 it refers to 01A6760014-A SEAT OPERA ASSY. 7 times. in the BODY PARTS CATALOGUE FORD JUNE 1940 WINDSOR ONT. on page 117 refers to 01A670692 HINGE[OPERA SEAT FRONT] 6 TIMES. on page 118 it refers 01A6764986 A TRIM [OPERA SEAT COMPARTMENT REAR] ANOTHER 12 TIMES. the repro BODY PARTS LIST 1939 AND 1940 also refers to opera seats on page 62 and 63. there is NO reference to auxillary seat or jump seat. these were the books that the partsman used in the us and canada in the 1940`s. so it is correct to call them opera seats. i know the 40 dealers album on page 38 refers to them as auxilary seats which is a bit more descriptive for a salesman since both coupes shared the same body from the outside. put it this way an opera seat is an auxilary seat but an auxilary seat could be any extra seat in a sedan delivery or a station wagon.

[jimalabam]

Lawson, again as always, you hit the nail on the head...

[Flat Ernie]

Originally Posted by Kube

For years we were taught Pluto was a planet. Now we know that is not true. Do we continue to teach kids that it is simply because they may understand it better?

No, 'we' changed the definition of a planet and now Pluto doesn't quite fit. It still orbits the sun, exactly as it has since it was discovered and named a planet. So, if we change the rules of what something is called, does it change what it is?

Originally Posted by Kube

We have known for decades that Columbus did not in fact discover America. Do we continue to teach our kids that he did because it 'fits' in to the common myths easier?

While we now know that Leif Ericson discovered North America prior to Columbus, it was Columbus' 'discovery' that led to settlement and European colonization of America and North America.

Originally Posted by Kube

While the list of examples goes on and on my reasoning remains the same. That is, we know the correct terminology. Call them whatever you choose but given the opportunity, teach correctly please.

What is the purpose of teaching? It is to further understanding. Knowing exact facts does not necessarily do this, knowing facts in context does. That's why Pluto is still a planet & Columbus discovered America & the Wright brothers were the first in flight...these things further our understanding of the topics they represent - Pluto made us re-evaluate what it means to be a planet by being a new class of planetoid, Columbus may not have been the first, but was certainly the most pertinent to our history - Ericson left nothing. And the Wright brothers spawned the golden age of aviation.

Lawson is the most correct.

[Kube]

Flat Ernie, You must be tough.

[Barn Junk]

Thanks Barry, The ID that seems correct and matches the time honored description of most Ford lovers is " a 1940 Ford coupe with opera seats" and then most everyone knows what the hell car you are talking about.

[Flat Ernie]

Originally Posted by kube

flat ernie, you must be tough.

:d :d :d

[ford38v8]

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So... There are Opera Seats in Business Coupes?

Maybe Lawson should co-author that chapter!

[Kube]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

So... There are Opera Seats in Business Coupes?

Maybe Lawson should co-author that chapter!

Alan, you've already surmised we are fighting a loosing battle here.
I was taught years ago, if ya can't be right, be loud. Or, as some guy might say, "if ya can't be smart, be tough".
Some guys just don't care to learn, especially when it goes against something they believe and / or have invested in.
I hope Lawson is keeping a careful eye on documentation as he's writing his book. Are you Lawson?
Personally I like to learn. Writing this '40 book has taught me much already and subsequently changed prior beliefs. I can only imagine the backlash by some when it is published - never mind the documentation! With all the very high point 40 Fords I've restored, I have found that there were mistakes made. If I made them, you can bet LOTS of others did as well. How much would you like to bet nearly all will NOT accept the documented proof but rather insist their cars remain correct?
Oh well, all I can do is be a good messenger...

What gets me most in instances like this post is the original post asked what terms the two coupes were given. Only a few of us actually answered the guys question. The rest, while perhaps adding to our discussion did little to answer the question posed. I only hope the original poster got what he desired out of this...
Alan, kind regards to you sir.
Mike

[sodbuster]

First........Sorry to bring back an old post.....but, What is the difference in the floors? Last time I called PB, he was running about 6 months out on floors & said that "Spardo" may have some.

Chris Nelson
Kansas

Originally Posted by Gumpy

Paul Bradley can also explain the differences in the jump seat coupe as opposed to the package tray coupe...they are built into the floors he manufactures!

[redfor40]

my cpe has the tray and back of the seat pulls up from the bottom to get to the area under the tray.

[Vic Piano]

I have a friend that has a '41 "Coupe" with a package tray and split bench seat. He found a set of "Opera/Auxiliary" seats at a swap meet (not sure what year car they came out of), that he wants to install in his '41. My question is; is the mounting hardware the same from say '39 to '41, and does anyone re-pop it or will he have to keep searching? I've always known Coupes, with Opera/auxiliary seats, to be referred to as "Opera Coups", right, wrong or indifferent. My preference is to refer to them as "Opera Coupes", as everyone seems to know what you are talking about, and it just sounds a lot better than "Auxiliary Coupes"... It really comes down to semantics, as it appears Ford used both nomenclatures as a reference, and in this case I agree with what Lawson said.

[FlatheadTed]

You may be interested to know a guy here(Richard Pears) flew a powered flight 9 months before the wright Bros

Originally Posted by Flat Ernie

No, 'we' changed the definition of a planet and now Pluto doesn't quite fit. It still orbits the sun, exactly as it has since it was discovered and named a planet. So, if we change the rules of what something is called, does it change what it is?


While we now know that Leif Ericson discovered North America prior to Columbus, it was Columbus' 'discovery' that led to settlement and European colonization of America and North America.


What is the purpose of teaching? It is to further understanding. Knowing exact facts does not necessarily do this, knowing facts in context does. That's why Pluto is still a planet & Columbus discovered America & the Wright brothers were the first in flight...these things further our understanding of the topics they represent - Pluto made us re-evaluate what it means to be a planet by being a new class of planetoid, Columbus may not have been the first, but was certainly the most pertinent to our history - Ericson left nothing. And the Wright brothers spawned the golden age of aviation.

Lawson is the most correct.

[MuskegonFlatheadFan]

Originally Posted by sodbuster

First........Sorry to bring back an old post.....but, What is the difference in the floors?

Bob Drake shows the difference here:
http://www.bobdrake.com/Images/CAT27..._PDFs/4-25.pdf

[sodbuster]

Thanks.

[fourtydlx]

Just be happy if own one.

[Flat Ernie]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

You may be interested to know a guy here(Richard Pears) flew a powered flight 9 months before the wright Bros

Yep, and the Germans claimed their guy did it first.

My point was that it really doesn't matter - none of the others changed powered flight the way the Wrights did. Just like no other auto manufacturer changed automobiles like Henry Ford did.

It comes back to - if a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody there to hear it, did it make a sound?

[Clem Clement]

I grew up in the back jump seats of a 41 business coupe. In 41 I was four and always rode on a junp seat. I kept toys and stuff in the little galley to the rear of the seats. I learned to l drive in that car. I hade even doubled date in that car. The kids in the back hadda be very friendly as there was very little space. I loved that car.
Clem

[jerry grayson]

Not to be "picky" or argumentative, but those of you that have a 28 to 48 parts book (green book) look on page760 where the models are shown and you will see;
model 67A Standard Business Coupe
model 67B DeLuxe Business Coupe
model 77A Standard (5- window ) Coupe
model 77B DeLuxe (5- window) Coupe
So, you could have a Business Coupe or a 5-Window Coupe. Selah!!

[swoopNZ]

It now appears from recently discovered archives that Richard Pearse did not even get started building an aeroplane until around 1910.
Chris.NZ.

[Vic Piano]

Not to belabor the point, but the Early Ford V8 Club list the following Car Codes for 1940 on their web site (see below). Included on that list are two Coupes identified this way:

1940 Ford Deluxe Business (Opera) Coupe 01A-67B
1940 Ford Standard Business (Opera) Coupe 01A-67A

So, if the EFV8 Club recognizes the term "Opera Coupe" as it applies to 1940 Ford automobiles, that should be enough evidence for everyone that 1940 Ford "Opera Coupes" were built by Ford and referred to as "Opera Coupes" in various Ford written material relating to 1940 Ford automobiles. Imagine that.

YearManufacturerModelCar Code1940Ford(deluxe) sedan delivery01A-78B1940Forddeluxe 5-windowcoupe01A-77B 1940Ford deluxe business (opera) coupe01A-67B 1940Forddeluxe convertible club coupe01A-76A1940Forddeluxe fordor sedan01A-73B1940Forddeluxe stationwagon01A-79B1940Forddeluxe tudor sedan01A-70B1940Fordpanel delivery01A-80C1940Fordpickup01A-80A1940Fordstandard 5-windowcoupe01A-77A 1940Fordstandard business (opera) coupe01A-67A 1940Fordstandard fordor sedan01A-73A1940Fordstandard stationwagon01A-79A1940Fordstandard tudor sedan01A-70A

[FlatheadTed]

I dont believe that for a minute .I would like to know your source .?? Eye witnesses verify by affidavit that he flew twice at the end of march 1903 .his engine produced exceptional power due to its innovative design .

Originally Posted by swoopNZ

It now appears from recently discovered archives that Richard Pearce did not even get started building an airplane until around 1910.
Chris.NZ.

[Flat Ernie]

The Kiwi is a flightless bird...

[Milt/Las Vegas]

Alot of to do about nothing.There're other things that get my ire a lot more than whether they're called business or opera coupes like no. 1 is sbcs for engines.

[biggeorge]

Call them what you want i have a shell of each. One has one brace under the rear window and the other has two. Only one has a floor so i still don't know the difference in the floors.But i would like to know what is different (pictures anyone). thanks
George

[swoopNZ]

Last Weekend's NZ Herald was where I think I read it.