New block, a further discussion

[Henry Floored]

Good morning, I am starting a new thread so as not to hijack corvette8n's thread about Edelbrock possibly being able to cast a new Flathead block.

I would like to turn the discussion to a new direction. Very simply what are your thoughts on a realistic price point for a new Flathead block? Now let me place this caveat. This theoretical new block would be cast in aluminum most likely. It would be stock appearing on the outside. It would be finish machined with only possibly a light honing necessary for the ring pack a person chooses. The porting would be greatly improved, at least as far as street requirements go. All original parts would interchange. The cylinder bores would most likely be 3 5/16".

For you guys that build them, what is the value to you of getting all of those attributes in a virgin crack free block?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm beating a dead horse. I am simply asking this question to gauge interest and aquire your knowledge.

As someone who has been covered with tons of cast iron dust porting, polishing relieving. I have fixed some cracks to save otherwise good engines. I have put my heart and soul into every Flathead I've had the pleasure of building. With that in mind and looking at a few of the invoices from the machine shop I have a little bit of an idea of what it takes time, effort and money wise to get a Flathead to the "put it together" stage.

Now I realize there is nothing like original iron. I realize FoMoCo cast millions of Flatty's. I realize that this isn't for everyone.

What I'm asking is again very simply, is there room for a replacement block yet? If so how much is it realistically worth to you for your project?

[Tim Ayers]

Henry

I appreciate your tenacity on this question and guest. If and when I do my very last engine and this block had improvements that would allow one to make 200 h.p. normally asperated, I'd pay $2k for such a block.

A lot is riding on your question, but that price point would be my absolute upper limit.

[Kurt in NJ]

The "new" modelA block is estimated to be in the 2-2500 range, the V8 is twice as complex and twice the weight of the A block

You have to think of how many can you sell--- there's the price of the casting, then the price of the machining, I would suspect the market will be small at what it would cost

Say the cost of bare casting is 1000, machining 2000, in lots of 1000, how long would you wait on a return on the investment , how much would you sell it for when you only sell 50 a year, this doesn't even consider development and engineering costs of the mold for the casting cores

[JSeery]

Why not get with a foundry and get an estimate.

[tubman]

I think this is primarily a question for the younger guys and serious racers. Like I said on the other thread, I'm 74 and have 4 good blocks, so I'm not even close to the target market. I think there are a lot of guys in my position.

[JSeery]

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This type of block would not be allowed in competition. If you could sell a block for $2k - $3k I would guess you could sell them all day long! I would think actual cost would exceed $10k, but all this guessing will get you no where. Contact a foundry and a mechine shop and get some real estimates.

[19Fordy]

Henry Floored:
Your idea would be a dream come true, except for the purists that build 100 point AACA cars. They would shy away from aluminum. I am thinking that top price would be $3K. Makes me wonder how many folks have good flathead blocks just stashed away. Before you make any kind of flathead block you would need a comittment from those who would actually put down a $1K deposit and purchase one. Which is more desirable - the early or late blocks? Plus, as the old timers pass on will there still be a market? Before jumping into the frying pan have a "sit down" with Mark Kirby and learn from his experience. Your experience as a foundry man will be invaluable. Good luck.

[Bruce Lancaster]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/a...es-jpg.401457/

This is just the internal stuff, lacking the outside of the block. A huge problem was keeping all the cores for cavities within cavities to stay in place as the iron flowed in... cores moving around caused the many failures in early 1932 production, when Ford was for a while scrapping more castings than they were sending to machining.
The exhaust system makes the casting an order of magnitude more complex than other familiar engines.
I can't think of any engine I know anything about with a block anything like that complex. Think about casting an overhead V8 from the cores shown...you could literally discard half the things in that picture. A Chevy SBC is very simple in comparison, and modern OHC engines have an even greater simplification of basic architecture.
This would take a dedicated and clever foundry that could be making a lot more money more easily popping out Chevy stuff for drag racers.

[rotorwrench]

Even the price of the SoCal/SF Flathead/French blocks are over $2K now but they had to add in the cost of the changes they made to them. They have been for sale on flea-pay for some time now so it's not exactly like they're selling like hot cakes. I think the 4-inch cranks & rods sold fairly well but the blocks, more slowly. I'm sure they will eventually get them all sold though. After that, a new block might get more attention than it does now. By then, the price will likely be higher still.

The photo of the internal cores gives a good idea of the complexity but the shell core is missing from the photo. I'm sure it was the first one that went into the box and formed the outer shell of the block. It may also have been more than one piece but most folks will get the idea anyway. I wish FoMoCo had included some of these casting procedures in there films of engine manufacture. It would be real interesting to watch them wire all that stuff in there. Ford probably wouldn't have wanted anyone to see that stuff since it was proprietary information. At least not until the engines were superseded but by then, no one would have cared one way or the other.

[Flathead]

It is often hard to get a decent price for an original block. Would enough people pony-up for a new one?

[weemark]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Even the price of the SoCal/SF Flathead/French blocks are over $2K now but they had to add in the cost of the changes they made to them. They have been for sale on flea-pay for some time now so it's not exactly like they're selling like hot cakes. I think the 4-inch cranks & rods sold fairly well but the blocks, more slowly. I'm sure they will eventually get them all sold though. After that, a new block might get more attention than it does now. By then, the price will likely be higher still.

I think there are several reasons people don't buy those French blocks.

1. They are a bit of a strange mix and match of different internal parts and people tend to shy away from them because of that.

2. They bought those blocks cheap and have added a lot of mark up to them - it wasn't that long ago when you could buy them in the crate from source and they were only a few $100 absolutely complete, I can't believe what they sell the block and the parts for - they are making an absolute killing on them.

[JSeery]

I keep bringing up the complexity of a flathead casting and it just doesn't seem to register. It is not just a SBC type block with a fee extras! This is just about as complicated as it gets as far as blocks go. Each one of the core components has to be almost perfect and has to be located perfectly in the mold and held in place during the casting process, this is NOT easy stuff. When you clean out a flathead block you will still find leftover wire and core pieces after all these years.

[AKCJ]

Henry, I know yours is a hypothetical question so my hypothetical answer is I would pay $3000. As others have pointed out, it would likely cost far more than that to produce the new block.


Just thinking about this, the original was cast iron - would the design have to be changed quite a bit to make the block from aluminum? I would guess that the cast iron block design just wouldn't work using aluminum due to strength/cooling and other issues.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by weemark

I think there are several reasons people don't buy those French blocks.

They bought those blocks cheap and have added a lot of mark up to them - it wasn't that long ago when you could buy them in the crate from source and they were only a few $100 absolutely complete, I can't believe what they sell the block and the parts for - they are making an absolute killing on them.

"A few $100, absolutely complete", eh? Where do some of you folks get your first-hand info from? My wife bought one of the very originals...bare block in a crate from Richard LeJeurrne himself at Halibrand....as a surprise Christmas gift for me just after Richard imported the whole lot, sixteen or so years ago now. It was $1,500 for a bare block. Complete 3-3/4" crankshaft engines were $2,300-ish. NONE of these things have ever been offered by a commercial peddler for a few hundred bucks COMPLETE! DD

[rotorwrench]

Business is business. Everyone wants a profit. I wouldn't do it for break even price either. They had to transport the stuff. All heavy stuff too. Not cheap. Some of it was likely a bit crusty with par-al-keytone. Removing that is time consuming and messy. They milled the back of the blocks where the governor lump was. They matched the intakes and I've seen some of those core shifted pretty well on the French blocks. They glyptal painted them and then? Warranty?

[weemark]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

"A few $100, absolutely complete", eh? Where do some of you folks get your first-hand info from? My wife bought one of the very originals...bare block in a crate from Richard LeJeurrne himself at Halibrand....as a surprise Christmas gift for me just after Richard imported the whole lot, sixteen or so years ago now. It was $1,500 for a bare block. Complete 3-3/4" crankshaft engines were $2,300-ish. NONE of these things have ever been offered by a commercial peddler for a few hundred bucks COMPLETE! DD

My information is first hand, we were buying them in the uk many many years ago, I know someone who was paying less than £50 for a complete engine maybe 35 years ago racing them in bangers - they would blow them up, throw them away and start again they were so cheap, there was literally 100s of them kicking about. I've seen trailers full of them and seen them sitting in their original crates stacked up on top of each other complete and they were only a few 100 dollars, I've seen them sent to Sweden and and all over Europe - a lot of them directly from France. Chap over her called Wally Wheatley of Nordian used to sell them for years in his old sheds - he used to go round buying all the old ford parts and sell them on.

Here is a post about them in 2008 where I said exactly the same thing http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...theads.265378/

[Ol' Ron]

Having built a few flatheads, I can tell you that there' very little you can do to the ports to improve Horese power very much. AS a normally aspirated engine the shape is just wrong and making it bigger doesn't improve it as much as the work involves costs. A Today's Bonneville engine's have big bore cam tunnels to allow for higher lift roller cams, and on Racing gas have trouble making 200 hp. One of the biggest problems is the size of the engine. Many of the racing engines are over 300ci and still have the same ports to feed the engine. Adding a mear 5 lbs of boost to a stock port and streetable cam will push the power well over 200 hp. Richards 276 had stock ports and valve size and i drove it, There was very little more you could ask for this engine. My new truck engine is a 290 ci STOCK flathead and the torque is un-believable. Unfortunately, it's pretty buch done by 3500. A new block would only interest those that wanted to keep the flatheads on the road. Like me.

[rotorwrench]

When the SUMB trucks & parts were surplused out by the French military, they were probably relatively inexpensive to folks in the European comunity. The ones here in the USA had to come a long way to get over here. They were never inexpensive this far west. It seems like a fellow brought a large load of them them into Houston, TX. I think the load was sold to Halibrand and then on to San Fransisco Flathead. Each time they changed hands they just got more expensive. Most of them would have stayed in the European comunity if this hadn't happened.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Having built a few flatheads, I can tell you that there' very little you can do to the ports to improve Horese power very much. AS a normally aspirated engine the shape is just wrong and making it bigger doesn't improve it as much as the work involves costs. A Today's Bonneville engine's have big bore cam tunnels to allow for higher lift roller cams, and on Racing gas have trouble making 200 hp. One of the biggest problems is the size of the engine. Many of the racing engines are over 300ci and still have the same ports to feed the engine. Adding a mear 5 lbs of boost to a stock port and streetable cam will push the power well over 200 hp. Richards 276 had stock ports and valve size and i drove it, There was very little more you could ask for this engine. My new truck engine is a 290 ci STOCK flathead and the torque is un-believable. Unfortunately, it's pretty buch done by 3500. A new block would only interest those that wanted to keep the flatheads on the road. Like me.

Ron if I had anything to say about porting I would suggest these things:

First the end exhaust ports would be wide open at the top just after the valve pocket. Then they would curve around the cylinders and exit the block with no dog leg. This is exactly how the Lincoln 337 is done.

Secondly the center exhaust port convergence area would be solid and shaped in such a way as to form a back port wall and port separator baffle.

Thirdly Ron I'd put a shape to the intake ports. In stock form they are pretty straight, have almost no short side radius, and slam the charge into the back of the valve pocket. I think there is room to "ramp" that area and lessen the approach angle of the intake port.

Now I agree that racers like bigger camshaft diameters and I don't think there'd be much of a problem providing them with enough material to overbore the camshaft tunnel.

[Ol' Ron]

Henry
Do you have a flow bench? I Built a home made on which I published the results in my book. Later I had access to a digital one which measured CFM, These thisga will break your heart. For one thing the exhausr is not the issue. If you can't get it in, you don't have to worry abput getting it out, Blower motors don't seen th have any trouble. I agree with you on the intake tho.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Henry
Do you have a flow bench? I Built a home made on which I published the results in my book. Later I had access to a digital one which measured CFM, These thisga will break your heart. For one thing the exhausr is not the issue. If you can't get it in, you don't have to worry abput getting it out, Blower motors don't seen th have any trouble. I agree with you on the intake tho.

Not that worried about the exhaust Ron. Don't have a flow bench but I have done some illustrative flow testing with smoke and dry power introduced into the air flow.

My exhaust mods are more to create a less turbulent environment thereby reducing the chance for creating hot spots in the flow "eddys" that now exist in the end exhaust ports.

[Bassman/NZ]

I seem to remember the Motor City Flatheads project was at one time predicting they would run about $12K or somesuch.....

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

I seem to remember the Motor City Flatheads project was at one time predicting they would run about $12K or somesuch.....

Yes I think that was their estimate for a complete engine cost. I assume minus the induction system.

[rotorwrench]

That may be for a complete engine assembly or at least somewhere near complete. Many of the changes made require the use of their proprietary parts.

[itslow]

For reference, the aluminum 348/409 blocks that are now available from the aftermarket are $5k+. That's also from a manufacturer (World Products / Bill Mitchell Products) that specializes in aluminum engine blocks and heads.

Granted that market would probably have a bit smaller audience at this current time, but original 348/409 blocks are much more scarce and expensive than their Flathead counterparts, which I think would make the demand similar (or perhaps even greater) for a brand new block. An aluminum Flathead block would have to be quite a bit cheaper to garner sales.

[mike in tucson]

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Maybe the easy way: Since the French flathead blocks were the last cast and had (supposedly) the latest technology, why not figure out who/where the French castings were made and contact them? Since the French flathead was the last made, there are probably people still alive who remember the process, etc. Also, the tooling may be still around.....or maybe the documentation. Then, after the IP is uncovered, look for an investor who can cover the pile of $$ required to initiate a pour. The machining is the simple part.....now days CNC equipment can make quick work of a casting machining operation. Anyone speak French?

[richard crow]

why not just repro the ardun set up .

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by mike in tucson

Anyone speak French?

Oui, oui!! That's all I can remember.

[tubman]

The french block patterns may not be the way to go. Check this thread on the H.A.M.B :

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...#post-11572493

[KiWinUS]

The New RoushYates Aluminum block closely copied from the cast (kinda) Nascar block is $6500-7000 . I certainly can not see how you could design , cast & machine an Aluminum flathead block for even close to that ! But I am all in for 1 new aluminum fully machined , tested useable block @$3000 ! But my offer ends in 3 years !
Cheers
Tony

[aonemarine]

I could see myself spending $2500.00 on a new fully machined block but not much more.
There is just too many good used blocks still available to warrant spending much more. Basically there just is not enough demand to make casting a new "replacement" block a fruitful venture.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

The New RoushYates Aluminum block closely copied from the cast (kinda) Nascar block is $6500-7000 . I certainly can not see how you could design , cast & machine an Aluminum flathead block for even close to that ! But I am all in for 1 new aluminum fully machined , tested useable block @$3000 ! But my offer ends in 3 years !
Cheers
Tony

Tony, are you referring to the RY45 engine? If so do you know if that is compacted graphite iron like the FR9 NASCAR engine? If that's the case I could see where the cost could be that much.

I wonder if an aluminum block engineered and machined here but cast overseas might be a little more palatable.

I honestly believe that the sleeving process could be eliminated and the PTAW process could be employed more ecomically and with less trouble than designing a sleeved (wet or dry) engine.

In addition the PTAW system would allow for a bigger bore from the get go with a higher quality cylinder surface to boot. It really is an amazing technology that promises to revolutionize engine design and or refurbishing.

Is there ever any chit chat around the Roush garages about the Flathead Ford knowing that Jack is a huge fan of these old cars?

Maybe he'd be the guy to talk to, to get the ball rolling. Or at least to get this pointed in the right direction.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by aonemarine

I could see myself spending $2500.00 on a new fully machined block but not much more.
There is just too many good used blocks still available to warrant spending much more. Basically there just is not enough demand to make casting a new "replacement" block a fruitful venture.

Considering that with the Flathead Ford you're getting the cylinder cases AND the porting and valvetrain area with the block itself I think $2500- $3000 would appeal to a lot of people. Maybe more than we think.

Do you suppose a block such as the one we are talking about could spawn the era of the $6500 Flathead crate engine that can entertain you with 200-225 hp and 275- 300 ft/lbs of torque?

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Considering that with the Flathead Ford you're getting the cylinder cases AND the porting and valvetrain area with the block itself I think $2500- $3000 would appeal to a lot of people. Maybe more than we think.

Do you suppose a block such as the one we are talking about could spawn the era of the $6500 Flathead crate engine that can entertain you with 200-225 hp and 275- 300 ft/lbs of torque?

That is a very good question. Lets look at what is available currently...
complete rotating assembly (scat) 1800.00, cam lifters valve train 1000.00
oil pump 200.00, so yes I would say you could get a short block less heads and intake/carbs for 6500. provided the block could be produced for 3k

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Considering that with the Flathead Ford you're getting the cylinder cases AND the porting and valvetrain area with the block itself I think $2500- $3000 would appeal to a lot of people. Maybe more than we think.

Do you suppose a block such as the one we are talking about could spawn the era of the $6500 Flathead crate engine that can entertain you with 200-225 hp and 275- 300 ft/lbs of torque?

Aren't we now talkng mainly "Hot Rod" engines for cars with upgraded drivelines, brakes, and suspension? The stock stuff is woefully inadequate for engines with this kind of power. I have thought from the start this thread is better suited to the H.A.M.B.

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by tubman

Aren't we now talkng mainly "Hot Rod" engines for cars with upgraded drivelines, brakes, and suspension? The stock stuff is woefully inadequate for engines with this kind of power. I have thought from the start this thread is better suited to the H.A.M.B.

Never heard of a wolf in sheep's clothing?? So what if it hits a little harder and runs a little stronger as long as its appearance is stock.

[Diavolo]

Ok, dumb question time. Isn't one of the first things done to a flathead relieving the block to improve flow and isn't relieving considered the most bang for your buck in terms of performance? How is that going to work with iron cylinders and aluminum deck? Just a logistical question.

Oh, and block ready to assemble? Nothing else? $2500 if I was feeling nostalgic. As far as performance numbers, at this point I would build a stroker 302 for that price and be done with it.

[tubman]

"aonemarine", The kind of power we're talking here will surely cause problems (I know, I had a '36 3-window with a healthy 276" Merc). I am done with the part of my life where I enjoy fixing pre-49 Ford driveline boo-boos. A standard "traditional" hop up (heads, carbs, and a little cam) makng 125 HP, sure, but not at this power level.

"Diavolo", I believe current thinking is that relieving is of little value on any but the most highly modified engines.

[Henry Floored]

Well guys I built a 265" Flatty for my friend with a Max 1 cam. Careful porting no relief. It is backed by a T5 trans and runs a single 94 carb. It resides in a Model A Coupe with full fenders. It is a gas to ride in or drive.

The thing is the T5 and or the C4 automatic are becoming a popular way to get the most out of our dear Flatheads. It is simply an option that many builders are taking these days and they work well.

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Well guys I built a 265" Flatty for my friend with a Max 1 cam. Careful porting no relief. It is backed by a T5 trans and runs a single 94 carb. It resides in a Model A Coupe with full fenders. It is a gas to ride in or drive.

The thing is the T5 and or the C4 automatic are becoming a popular way to get the most out of our dear Flatheads. It is simply an option that many builders are taking these days and they work well.

Someone needs to make a 39 case with T5 gears in it.....That would be the ticket!

[Henry Floored]

Going back a little bit and maybe thinking a bit outside the box......

I'm sure everyone is familiar with the early "tin sides" V8 60 engines. Why did Ford do this on those little engines? Was it a way to facilitate an easier casting process?

Now step ahead to later engines. Let's think about what people wrongly call "freeze out" plugs. Those are actually core plugs to provide an out for casting sands in the foundry.

Many respondents here have mentioned how hard it would be to cast a Flatty most notably because of the internal exhaust boxes.

Now I'm not suggesting a tin sided new generation Flatty would be feasible or even desirable. What I am saying maybe is that some compromises could be made to make something like this a reality.

Why couldn't some small windows be positioned in the block to provide access for supports for the internal exhaust cores? Wouldn't that make all the difference in the world?

After casting and machining, small cover plates could cover the access windows.

This kind of thing is done on a variety of complex cast water cooled engines. It is also done on "forged" block racing engines that run water cooling.

I realize that this could impact the appearance of the engine BUT, maybe theses access places could be located on the inside of the valley area.

On the other hand if they had to be placed on the outside maybe their appearance could be minimized or maybe even enhanced such as a finned cover to pick up the look of the cylinder heads.

Just thinking guys.

[Henry Floored]

Well the heck with it. I'm gonna bump my own thread for shits and giggles. Anyone else care to chime in?

[itslow]

Originally Posted by richard crow

why not just repro the ardun set up .

That's already being reproduced. Cost is somewhere between $10k-20 for a set.

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

...Why couldn't some small windows be positioned in the block to provide access for supports for the internal exhaust cores? Wouldn't that make all the difference in the world?

After casting and machining, small cover plates could cover the access windows...

In order to support the cores for the exhaust passages, the windows would wind up being in the walls of the exhaust passages. Those would not be particularly easy to weld cover plates over. Not quite sure a thin "tin" cover would be an ideal thing to have in an exhaust port, either.

I think if someone is going to be spending $2500+ or whatever on a block, they aren't going to be willing to purchase one that has tin sides or covered core support holes in the ports.

[louisb]

Until the cost of patching up an original iron block passes the cost of casting a new block I doubt you will be able to sell very many. And even then I think the cost of the French blocks will set the ceiling for a new block. As to which to cast I would say the French block since it can be made to work like a 59 or 8ba series engine. I would quite happily trade my good 8rt block for a 59 style block.

Thanks,

--louis

[Seth Swoboda]

I have built both the 59A block and the 8BA block. I prefer the 59A over the 8BA. I'm not sure why. I do prefer the 59A two bolt distributor over that lousy Load-A-Matic distributor. I like the water outlet in the center of the head.

[louisb]

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What might be better and easier would be to round up a bunch of Ford blocks, test them and sell them already machined.

--louis

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

I have built both the 59A block and the 8BA block. I prefer the 59A over the 8BA. I'm not sure why. I do prefer the 59A two bolt distributor over that lousy Load-A-Matic distributor. I like the water outlet in the center of the head.

I agree Seth for the most part. I like the looks of the early engine better. I hate the more difficult serviceability though. On my '41 putting a quart of oil in can be quite a stretching exercise.

I think maybe Motor City has it exactly right. 8BA out back and 59A on the front. The middle of the engine can be used in either version.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by louisb

What might be better and easier would be to round up a bunch of Ford blocks, test them and sell them already machined.

--louis

Louis this is a great point. While it would be easier said than done it sure would save a lot of trouble.

Of course all the velvety goodness of an updated block would not be realized. I envision a block that can produce more power since the breathing happens there. It's as simple as that.

[louisb]

This is true. Be sure to include a method for oil filtering if you do move forward.

Thanks,

--louis

[Ol' Ron]

You might want to talk to Ferguson out in California. He makes the Ardun OHV conversion for the flathead. He also made Blocks as well. Unfortunately they had no ports.

[flatheadmurre]

I just took down our brass/aluminum foundry and moved it to the new shop location.
To make something like this happen you need to raise 200k from people not intrested in profit...then it will take about a year to make molds and coreboxes..make some tests...correct whats wrong...and make a test series.
After that you need about a year of roadtesting to see what kind of built in tension and other issues you got to adress.
In year number 3 you can start selling and the people investing the money can then buy a block at reduced price.
Its not undoable just a very hard task to get the financial part to work out.
If you could sell one a week...im not sure you could sell one a month...no one wants to set up machining equipment for doing one at a time..

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

I just took down our brass/aluminum foundry and moved it to the new shop location.
To make something like this happen you need to raise 200k from people not intrested in profit...then it will take about a year to make molds and coreboxes..make some tests...correct whats wrong...and make a test series.
After that you need about a year of roadtesting to see what kind of built in tension and other issues you got to adress.
In year number 3 you can start selling and the people investing the money can then buy a block at reduced price.
Its not undoable just a very hard task to get the financial part to work out.
If you could sell one a week...im not sure you could sell one a month...no one wants to set up machining equipment for doing one at a time..

When can we start? Let's talk.

[rotorwrench]

Most of the folks that do one off casting projects are making a part for a very rare and highly prized collector car. Sad thing is, most of that type of stuff is simpler to do unless you are working on some big 12 or 16 cylinder car and most of those had the same engine as the base production models so a person can still source a repairable block and some of the other parts.

FoMoCo made so much of the stuff and it fit all the different body styles and even trucks so they could make it for a very low price per unit. They went from Canadian iron ore to complete block pretty quick at the Rouge foundry. I'm sure they had a fair amount of failures but they likely went right back into the smelter.

Folks find some pretty clever ways to repair & strengthen stuff on these old blocks. One guy on the HAMB machined a complete steel skirt to bolt up to the oil pan flange and mains. He made it where the skirt provided more strength to the main bearings since it acted like a girdle. The oil pan just bolted up the the lower flange of the skirt so he had to make an extension for the oil pick up. I never did see if he competed it or not but is sounded like a good idea.

Someone may even try to find a way to machine away the cylinder deck and cylinders then cast or machine a new assembly that can be installed and bolted with o-rings or something to seal it up. Rodders have been doing this kind of stuff for years. That's a reason to keep some of those old damaged blocks if they aren't too screwed up. You never know what kind of fix someone will come up with.

[aonemarine]

why does the block have to be cast in iron or aluminum? Why not cast it in bronze?
why does it have to be sand cast? why not investment block cast it?
why in the hello do i think of this crazy stuff?

125lbs of silicone bronze = $625.00, 500 lbs investment = $675.00 expensive yes but easily repairable, more ductile than grey iron, less likely to have casting problems if done under vacuum.....Not good for high production due to material costs.......
Hmm could some crazy redneck in his back yard pull it off?? I wouldnt bet against it

[flatheadmurre]

When we´re talking low series and not to damn cost sensitive with the goal to produce an authentic replica my vote goes to cast iron with a high nickel content that would make a real good block still looking like it should and stronger with less chance to crack then original.

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

When we´re talking low series and not to damn cost sensitive with the goal to produce an authentic replica my vote goes to cast iron with a high nickel content that would make a real good block still looking like it should and stronger with less chance to crack then original.

I know what you mean. but for simplicity from a metallurgical standpoint.... well Iron can be pretty damn sensitive....

[flatheadmurre]

Anything that is way off from original will not be alowed to compete in classic racing, and that would be one of the places blocks will be needed.
Next is logistics...probably going to have to ship the tooling around the world rather then blocks if it´s going to be cost effective.
Changing the designator for where it was cast 59U(US) and for wherever it was poored that way being a replica and you are able to tell so.

[Brian]

Can't be done- no way- absolutely no way can anybody [corporate or individual] mass produce a flathead Ford V8 styled block these days....I know, because in this modern technological age we live in, the repro industry cannot even replicate simple parts that fit, that Ford, and others, churned out by the millions. We're so advanced....
Interesting as this thread is, [I am into getting great performance with ultra reliability outta my flatheads], all this is, in my opinion is conjecture. A dream...
Flatheads; you'll never spend so much to go so slow- Fact!!
Very, very interesting thread all the same.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Brian

Can't be done- no way- absolutely no way can anybody [corporate or individual] mass produce a flathead Ford V8 styled block these days....I know, because in this modern technological age we live in, the repro industry cannot even replicate simple parts that fit, that Ford, and others, churned out by the millions. We're so advanced....
Interesting as this thread is, [I am into getting great performance with ultra reliability outta my flatheads], all this is, in my opinion is conjecture. A dream...
Flatheads; you'll never spend so much to go so slow- Fact!!
Very, very interesting thread all the same.

Well I hope you're not right and when the apocalypse or Armageddon happens and the enemy attacks our power grid rendering all electronic devices useless I will be the one driving around in one of my two Flathead powered vehicles.

You see like cockroaches, these things seem like they'll survive the end of the world as we know it. When everyone else is walking you will think my Flatheads are very fast.

On a serious note it can be done. It's the wrong attitude that stops most everything. Attitude is altitude- Fact!

Here's what you do. You visualize shiny brand new and improved Flathead Ford engines stacked up from floor to ceiling and by the hundreds. Out front the phones are ringing off the hook and the people responsible for answering those calls can't keep up with the barrage of interest. It's at that very moment you realize that you have tapped into a pent up demand like no one has ever seen before.

You visualize that and work backwards.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Anything that is way off from original will not be alowed to compete in classic racing, and that would be one of the places blocks will be needed.
Next is logistics...probably going to have to ship the tooling around the world rather then blocks if it´s going to be cost effective.
Changing the designator for where it was cast 59U(US) and for wherever it was poored that way being a replica and you are able to tell so.

Now this is a valid point and one I hear a lot. Here's my take......

It's hogwash for any timing association to disallow a new Flathead block. I understand any vehicle using the new block would probably need a new designation very simply because there is much room for improvement and a new block would most likely take advantage of that.

Now the last time I checked the Flathead Fords and even the earlier Ford Four Bangers were the engines that made this whole land speed contest a reality for the average guy.

When a Flathead powered car pulls up to the line at Bonneville all the officials should genuflect and do the sign of the cross out of reverence for goodness of and out of thanks for the very existence for Henry's wonderful bent 8.

Nah seriously a new block needs to be discussed with the future of the "XF" classes in mind. There are hardly if any factory blocked- headed chivolays out there. Why do they get special treatment? I think those things should be illegal on the grounds that those are the engines that ruined hot rodding.

[19Fordy]

"I think those things should be illegal on the grounds that those are the engines that ruined hot rodding."

It's all about the quest for speed no matter what the engine.

[KGS]

[QUOTE=Henry Floored;1316959]Well I hope you're not right and when the apocalypse or Armageddon happens and the enemy attacks our power grid rendering all electronic devices useless I will be the one driving around in one of my two Flathead powered vehicles.

You see like cockroaches, these things seem like they'll survive the end of the world as we know it. When everyone else is walking you will think my Flatheads are very fast.

/QUOTE]

I always thought that too. It turns out that unless I have large amount of fuel stored up in a tank with a manual pump, I will only drive until my last tank of gas is gone. Pipelines won't be able to pump oil to the refinery, which can't deliver gas to the depot, which can't pump to the trucks, which can't deliver to the gas station that can't pump into my '39. So, I guess I'll have to walk along with everyone else or stay home and read a book...
Ken

[flatheadmurre]

Hot rodding isn´t what we are doing here...we are running a nostalgic trip !
If hot rodding still is defined as what it used to be...a cheap way for poor youngster to go fast...we would be chiptuning hondas

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Hot rodding isn´t what we are doing here...we are running a nostalgic trip !
If hot rodding still is defined as what it used to be...a cheap way for poor youngster to go fast...we would be chiptuning hondas

Bingo! All this talk about a new block being impractical. Messing with old cars is impractical and it doesn't make sense. Do why do we do it? Why do we love it so?

[Henry Floored]

[QUOTE=KGS;1316973]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Well I hope you're not right and when the apocalypse or Armageddon happens and the enemy attacks our power grid rendering all electronic devices useless I will be the one driving around in one of my two Flathead powered vehicles.

You see like cockroaches, these things seem like they'll survive the end of the world as we know it. When everyone else is walking you will think my Flatheads are very fast.

/QUOTE]

I always thought that too. It turns out that unless I have large amount of fuel stored up in a tank with a manual pump, I will only drive until my last tank of gas is gone. Pipelines won't be able to pump oil to the refinery, which can't deliver gas to the depot, which can't pump to the trucks, which can't deliver to the gas station that can't pump into my '39. So, I guess I'll have to walk along with everyone else or stay home and read a book...
Ken

I don't know about you but in my area it'd take a long time to syphon all the gas out of the disabled electronically controlled cars. I'm guessing that'd be the cheapest gas I ever bought. 😉

[Tim Ayers]

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Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Hot rodding isn´t what we are doing here...we are running a nostalgic trip !
If hot rodding still is defined as what it used to be...a cheap way for poor youngster to go fast...we would be chiptuning hondas

Well, maybe we can marry these two worlds. What if we make a block that bolts together and acts like a cover for a hopped up Honda motor?

Kids take those 1.8L right out of junkyards and run 15 lb of boost through them. All stock and nothing done to the bottom or top ends. They seem to hold up well and run like stink. I've seen some of these kids even hit their mills with a 100 shot coming off the line.

Seems like the best of both worlds: An engine that looks like a flathead, but can be put together for under $2K and would run rings around even the best-built, high dollar flathead.

Just a thought....

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Well, maybe we can marry these two worlds. What if we make a block that bolts together and acts like a cover for a hopped up Honda motor?

Kids take those 1.8L right out of junkyards and run 15 lb of boost through them. All stock and nothing done to the bottom or top ends. They seem to hold up well and run like stink. I've seen some of these kids even hit their mills with a 100 shot coming off the line.

Seems like the best of both worlds: An engine that looks like a flathead, but can be put together for under $2K and would run rings around even the best-built, high dollar flathead.

Just a thought....

Yup and Honda won Indy and LeMans this year. All this while we are sleeping and dreaming of the good old days when American ingenuity was a major force in the world.

Ahhh well......

[Bruce Lancaster]

I was once privileged to correspond with a very high end restorer/racer deeply involved in all sorts of 1920's-'30's racing, mostly European but some contact with Ford fours. He had for a long time manufactured or arranged manufacture of very small runs of parts for VERY rare cars, 1920's Bugatti and other racers, stuff like that. Anytime a part was needed, a small multiple of the camshaft or block or whatever was run off as spares/future needs material. This was WAY past our kind of old stuff, we are talking cars with NO parts supply at all and values running into the millions, so needs were on a cost no obstacle basis. The people were not only restorers, they were actually racing their crocks too, and with both money and competitiveness in the mix anything that was needed damn well got made.
Then...he raised anchor and moved to Poland, of all places.
Why?? Cheap life, cheap labor, in a town housing a near inactive military aircraft factory and its highly skilled and unemployed staff.
Instant discount access to craftsmen (with machinery!) who could make ANYTHING and do it to combat aviation standards. No more paying Swiss gnomes and master racecar fabricators, these people had the skills and were hungry!
BUT I think it is fair to say...if you need a new block cast because you just threw a rod in your 1927 Delage Grand Prix racer, said block despite its exotic nature is going to be a LOT easier than a flathead Ford one. Open cast water jackets, OHC leading to short ports and open design, etc. These cars were originally almost as handmade as the new parts, and the makers could not have begun to handle the complexity of the ports and such in our engines.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Yup and Honda won Indy and LeMans this year. All this while we are sleeping and dreaming of the good old days when American ingenuity was a major force in the world.

Ahhh well......

I'm perfectly all right with this, but then, I'm old. (And have two extra good blocks under the bench.)

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

I was once privileged to correspond with a very high end restorer/racer deeply involved in all sorts of 1920's-'30's racing, mostly European but some contact with Ford fours. He had for a long time manufactured or arranged manufacture of very small runs of parts for VERY rare cars, 1920's Bugatti and other racers, stuff like that. Anytime a part was needed, a small multiple of the camshaft or block or whatever was run off as spares/future needs material. This was WAY past our kind of old stuff, we are talking cars with NO parts supply at all and values running into the millions, so needs were on a cost no obstacle basis. The people were not only restorers, they were actually racing their crocks too, and with both money and competitiveness in the mix anything that was needed damn well got made.
Then...he raised anchor and moved to Poland, of all places.
Why?? Cheap life, cheap labor, in a town housing a near an inactive military aircraft factory and its highly skilled and unemployed staff.
Instant discount access to craftsmen (with machinery!) who could make ANYTHING and do it to combat aviation standards. No more paying Swiss gnomes and master racecar fabricators, these people had the skills and were hungry!
BUT I think it is fair to say...if you need a new block cast because you just threw a rod in your 1927 Delage Grand Prix racer, said block despite its exotic nature is going to be a LOT easier than a flathead Ford one. Open cast water jackets, OHC leading to short ports and open design, etc. These cars were originally almost as handmade as the new parts, and the makers could not have begun to handle the complexity of the ports and such in our engines.

Bruce first I just want to say I have treasured your comments, knowledge and stories over the years.

Now maybe the first step is to do a "block summit". A meeting whether it be online or in person with some of the most thoughtful and experienced Ford people willing to share their thoughts in real time.

This would require, I'm sure, a mixture of engineers, engine builders and foundry men to bring a practical goal to light.

I have two or three imperatives that would not change the appearance of the engine. I'm sure there are plenty of ideas and of course many of them were already shared here.

Is the "Early V8 Ford" community willing to have a "barn raising" or in this case a "block raising".😉

[Bruce Lancaster]

I think my imperatives would mostly involve maybe a cast-in porting job, maybe extra metal and/or deeper water jacket in crack zone (after study of the 1946 press release on that area!), mebbe make the block webs thick slabs like the do on aftermarket SBC's. Everything generally works on flatheads, it would just be nice to have easy clean ones!
Radical changes? Seems silly. Chevy successfully updated the flathead in 1955 with the obvious modernizations, and those easily fit where a flathead lived if someone wants lots more steam.
Oh yes...some good stock looking iron heads done like Denvers, with tightened up chamber volume and decent transfer area! That would be a neat starting point and fundraiser for a block project...

[rotorwrench]

The Polish bought up the Type certificates for the old Franklin Aircraft engines but they haven't produced very many. They also bought rights to produce a Russian copy of the old Wright R-1820 like the B-17s had. Bison lathe chucks are also made in Poland but I heard that some of those guys jumped ship and went to China to get cheaper copies of those made. The world just keeps moving on.

I'm affraid we may have to wait till 3D printers can use resins that are capable of working as an engine block. There are still too many old blocks out there that are usable at this stage of the game. Folks will buy the new muscle car small & big block castings for one, because all the good ones got blown up racing them, and two, because they are less expensive that finding & fixing an old one with some exceptions. The later overhead valve blocks are much easier to cast and have way thinner cylinder walls than the old flathead V8s with some exceptions.

A replicator like Star Treck had would be the next option in the future but I likely won't be around to see that. I might be around to see some mad fabricator actually cast an updated flathead before I keel over tits up but I imagine that will be a while. It's definitely not in my cards to do that and I'm pretty much crazy too!

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

I think my imperatives would mostly involve maybe a cast-in porting job, maybe extra metal and/or deeper water jacket in crack zone (after study of the 1946 press release on that area!), mebbe make the block webs thick slabs like the do on aftermarket SBC's. Everything generally works on flatheads, it would just be nice to have easy clean ones!
Radical changes? Seems silly. Chevy successfully updated the flathead in 1955 with the obvious modernizations, and those easily fit where a flathead lived if someone wants lots more steam.
Oh yes...some good stock looking iron heads done like Denvers, with tightened up chamber volume and decent transfer area! That would be a neat starting point and fundraiser for a block project...

Bruce you and I agree on some stuff. I think GM very consciously went for the Ford V8 formula when they brought out the sbc. They have routinely taken what Ford had first and built on that idea. Examples, the Camaro was a response to the Mustang. The LS engine being very small block Ford like in concept. The SB2 NASCAR heads that effectively caught them back up when the Cleveland headed Fords were stomping them into the mud.

Nowadays GM and FCA will once again follow Ford with aluminun bodied pick up trucks and small displacement turbocharged DI engines.

Now that doesn't have a thing to do with this conversation except to point out that any new Flathead block would never be a substitute for more modern but soulless OHV V8.

What this would be for is to eventually become a keystone product for hobby of early V8 ing.

Of course the block should have a "cast in" port job. There is literally horsepower laying in the cutting room floor with the original porting designs. I think valve position could be "tickled" too.

Let's say an as cast superior porting job that could easily add 30-50hp to your build and the corresponding 100+ pound weight loss, ask yourself what could that do for overall vehicle performance?

I mean every aspect from acceleration to cornering to braking would be improved.

"Power Dense" is a phrase they toss around a lot these days. While you immediately think about physical size it also refers to power to weight ratios.

[aonemarine]

How did this conversation get switched to chevys and what nots??
Here is the 3d print of Flat32's engine that will be investment cast in bronze. Its in 1/4 scale. The larger yellow section is half scale.

[Henry Floored]

My first real step and contribution to this subject is to actually build the best intake port into one of my original blocks. That includes my repositioned intake valve theory. I think there is power to be made there. It will have no effect on outward appearance and will still be compatible with all standard production parts except for the valve guides.

Again this is what I think the first real step towards doing this.

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

My first real step and contribution to this subject is to actually build the best intake port into one of my original blocks. That includes my repositioned intake valve theory. I think there is power to be made there. It will have no effect on outward appearance and will still be compatible with all standard production parts except for the valve guides.

Again this is what I think the first real step towards doing this.

Care to elaborate?

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

My first real step and contribution to this subject is to actually build the best intake port into one of my original blocks. That includes my repositioned intake valve theory. I think there is power to be made there. It will have no effect on outward appearance and will still be compatible with all standard production parts except for the valve guides.

Again this is what I think the first real step towards doing this.

Are you changing position/angle of the valve or just reshaping the runner and guide ?

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Are you changing position/angle of the valve or just reshaping the runner and guide ?

A little of both actually. I have a couple sacrificial blocks. I would like to tilt the intake valve towards the cylinder wall margin. This alone will force the intake port to "stretch" a little. I then would like create a gently curved intake port with no air damn in the valve pocket and a much kinder short side radius.

All this relieving business is done simply because it has been found that in a side valve engine we have have to encourage the flow to go sideways just as it passes the valve seat. Then we bounce the charge off the cylinder head to turn the rest of it down the cylinder.

I think I described this once as imagine taking your garden hose and spraying it full blast at 90 degrees to a solid wall. Messy!

No rotate to a 45 degree angle and do the same. What happens?

We are asking the intake charge to change direction of almost 180 degrees right when it's most important to keep momentum up and fill the cylinder.

We all know by first hand experience or by word of mouth that a supercharger wakes up a Flatty. They certainly do for the simple reason is a blower overcomes this basic restrictor in the Flathead's intake flow path.

With a supercharger the Flathead Ford starts to wander up near 1 hp per cubic inch where it should be from the get go.

Guys there is a reason why the best engine builders in the world are only getting 50 or so more hp out of a Flatty than me who sucks by comparison. If there wasn't something inherently wrong with side valve breathing the best would be wringing 300 hp out of a 276 incher.

The way to make any thought of a new block worthwhile to people is to give them the very best breathing they can get from a side valve engine.

Imagine a scenario where this "service block" if you will, just comes close to the best port job by a professional on a stock block. Combine that with being able to toss 100lbs of unneeded weight overboard. What impact would that have on average attainable performance for everyone?

[louisb]

Ther are metal 3D printers now. Might be an option.

--louis

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by louisb

Ther are metal 3D printers now. Might be an option.

--louis

The cost is up in the sky...you pay by the gram.

[corvette8n]

Cool discussion, I started the Edelbrock thread, because if we ever run out of rebuildable flathead blocks, I am hoping some manufacturer will step up to the plate so we can continue this hobby.

[itslow]

Originally Posted by louisb

Ther are metal 3D printers now. Might be an option.

They are not large enough to produce something as large as a flathead block in a single piece.

3D "printing" is great in theory, but not really practical for an application such as this as of yet.

[Ol' Ron]

Well if the first thing your gona do is improve the ports. I sugest you get a good flow bench, abunch of grinders,and allot of Bondo. Also remember the cylinder head is also part of the porting system (transfer area) and last but not least the shape of the valve. And the rules are: All stock Ford parts must fit. Now go for it. Here's a hint: remve the water arount the intake ports, but not the exhaust.

[Fordors]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

A little of both actually. I have a couple sacrificial blocks. I would like to tilt the intake valve towards the cylinder wall margin. This alone will force the intake port to "stretch" a little. I then would like create a gently curved intake port with no air damn in the valve pocket and a much kinder short side radius.

Just wondering, how much would you like to see the intake valve angle changed? What would be done to compensate for the out of parallel between the deck and the valve seat, would a "mini-relief" so to speak, be required? What else would need to be corrected/changed?

[JM 35 Sedan]

While reviewing some of my old picture taken at the 2011 EFV-8C/A's Auburn, IN Meet, I came across this picture of Mark Kirby's 34 coupe test vehicle that had a running sample of one of his prototype "new block" engines installed. Seems to me he said he had somewhere between 40-60k miles on this engine at that time.

stay tuned....I thought this picture was filed in my tablet, but it must be in my computer files. Will add it to this post later today

[Tim Ayers]

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Since this will be a from scratch build, would it be possible to make it so the transfer area and head can be shaped like the Harley KR (I think that is the model) flatheads? If I recall correctly, they were designed by Sir Ricardo and are an excellent design.

If I remember what 'Ol Ron said, the reason it can't be done know is due to stud location. This change would of course necessitate new heads to be cast as well.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Since this will be a from scratch build, would it be possible to make it so the transfer area and head can be shaped like the Harley KR (I think that is the model) flatheads? If I recall correctly, they were designed by Sir Ricardo and are an excellent design.

If I remember what 'Ol Ron said, the reason it can't be done know is due to stud location. This change would of course necessitate new heads to be cast as well.

And there's the rub; costs go up by another large chunk and you lose the nostalgia factor all in one fell swoop.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by tubman

And there's the rub; costs go up by another large chunk and you lose the nostalgia factor all in one fell swoop.

Well, if the ultimate goal is more h.p., why not make it the best it can be? From what I understand, it would just require re-locating some of the head bolt locations.

If done well, the average on looker wouldn't notice re-located bolt locations.

From the reading I've done, that Harley combustion chamber shape is the best you can get in a flathead design.

[rotorwrench]

The old Harley 45, 55, & 61 CID type flathead motors are air cooled with no water ports to worry about and the intake & exhaust ports are way different. The KR type profile looks good on paper but the flow characteristics wouldn't help much in a Ford flathead V8 due to the ports.

[Ol' Ron]

Granetille made some heads with this chamber. I'll post a pic if I can find it. I used the heads on my Bville engine andit sits in a junk yard inCA

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Fordors

Just wondering, how much would you like to see the intake valve angle changed? What would be done to compensate for the out of parallel between the deck and the valve seat, would a "mini-relief" so to speak, be required? What else would need to be corrected/changed?

Good questions and thank you for asking.

Yes moving the intake valve over towards the cylinder margin would require a minor notch or "relief" since (you're right) the valve head would no longer be parallel with the deck.

Imagine looking up through the cylinder from the bottom and actually being able to see the edge of the valve at or near max lift.

This, I feel would require a lifter bore machined inline with the valve stem. In other words the lifter bores would be staggered from intake to exhaust.

I realize this sounds a little "out of the box" but I don't think it's out of the realm of realistic possibility.

[Henry Floored]

Of course I think any new "service" block should take advantage of the biggest practical bore diameter possible. I think 3 5/16" is a no brainier and 3 3/8" or even 3 7/16" should be at least looked at.

You see at this point I feel that PTAW cylinder walls would be a great and reasonable way to do this in an otherwise aluminun engine.

This process is relatively cheap and very well perfected. Ford Motor Company used this process in production on their 5.8 liter Trinity engine that was built to produce over 600 hp.

The Modular platform that the "Trinity" is based on are very limited in bore spacing. Thus it is tough to get a bigger bore by conventional means i.e. a steel sleeve. The PTAW process leaves a very durable surface on the cylinder wall and it's only a few thousands thick.

They did not have to overbore the block in order to accommodate a thicker walled sleeve in this aluminun in block.

If you doubt the process I suggest you read up on it. Engine rebuilding companies are beginning to use this process to refinish worn engines to original bore specs.

[Ol' Ron]

I thought we were building a replacement block. Not a one off racing engine.

[awelker]

I've been following along with this discussion and thought I'd add a few thoughts.

In regards to the need for vintage racers, for the SCTA all non oem production blocks are not allowed. Not even the French blocks. This may change someday but who knows.

If I were to approach this task with sufficient funds I would use the 3D printing process which can directly print sand molds and cores. This would allow you to create test motors without shelling out for casting patterns that may just need to be thrown away. The 3D printed sand patterns are expensive but I feel could be justified to avoid pattern rework.

On the design side I feel you need to keep compatibility with most all components you can. As soon as you stray from the original design you are losing out on some of the demand. Your idea of lowering the intake valve to the bore is the difference between pre war and post war blocks. Starting with the 59 series blocks the valves and lifter bores were rotated up around the cam bore. This moved the valve heads .090" further away from the bore at the deck surface.

Ultimately it all boils down to demand unless you are independently wealthy and have the means to do this just for fun. I consider myself in the younger crowd in the flathead world and being a racer I have the opportunity to ruin my fair share of blocks in the future. That being said I feel I have already squirreled away at least 50% of my lifetime supply of tested, crack free blocks. So even at the right price I don't know if I would ever have the need for one, even though I would love to see this happen.

Andy

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I thought we were building a replacement block. Not a one off racing engine.

No not at all Ron. Just proposing ideas on how to get the very most from the basic architecture.

I feel that it is very important that any and all exterior parts such as intake manifolds and cylinder heads should interchange directly.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by awelker

I've been following along with this discussion and thought I'd add a few thoughts.

In regards to the need for vintage racers, for the SCTA all non oem production blocks are not allowed. Not even the French blocks. This may change someday but who knows.

If I were to approach this task with sufficient funds I would use the 3D printing process which can directly print sand molds and cores. This would allow you to create test motors without shelling out for casting patterns that may just need to be thrown away. The 3D printed sand patterns are expensive but I feel could be justified to avoid pattern rework.

On the design side I feel you need to keep compatibility with most all components you can. As soon as you stray from the original design you are losing out on some of the demand. Your idea of lowering the intake valve to the bore is the difference between pre war and post war blocks. Starting with the 59 series blocks the valves and lifter bores were rotated up around the cam bore. This moved the valve heads .090" further away from the bore at the deck surface.

Ultimately it all boils down to demand unless you are independently wealthy and have the means to do this just for fun. I consider myself in the younger crowd in the flathead world and being a racer I have the opportunity to ruin my fair share of blocks in the future. That being said I feel I have already squirreled away at least 50% of my lifetime supply of tested, crack free blocks. So even at the right price I don't know if I would ever have the need for one, even though I would love to see this happen.

Andy

Excellent post, thank you for your input Andy.

I would like to ask you if say a new block is never approved for competition in any current vintage engine classes, would there be any reason why a racer couldn't just run this theoretical new engine just to get a "personal" record for instance?

If said engine could simply bolt into the same place as an original Flathead Ford what would prevent someone from running this engine in an "open" class?

[Henry Floored]

BTW, the point that Andy made about the later engines which had the valves moved away from the cylinder margin is very interesting.

I have heard multiple people express how well their early 221" V8's run. My '41 which is stock except for dual exhaust has no trouble keeping pace with later and larger Flatheads. (yes we run 'em for fun sometimes)

Could it be that the 81A breathes a bit better due to the proximity of the valves relative to the cylinder margin?

[awelker]

The SCTA would allow an engine such as this to run for "time only" and not be qualified for any records.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by awelker

The SCTA would allow an engine such as this to run for "time only" and not be qualified for any records.

I see thank you.

[38 coupe]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

Oh yes...some good stock looking iron heads done like Denvers, with tightened up chamber volume and decent transfer area! That would be a neat starting point and fundraiser for a block project...

I am not interested in new blocks. I have a couple in the barn myself (a lot of us seem to be the same). However, new cast iron heads with the "Denver" chamber and stock exterior would really get my attention. My personal request is for the 1938 only 24 stud head exterior...

[Ol' Ron]

While in dream world. I'd like to see the spark plug moved to the transfer area, so we could get better gas mileage.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

While in dream world. I'd like to see the spark plug moved to the transfer area, so we could get better gas mileage.

So Ron, there is a Superflow flow bench within about a mile from my home. I believe if I build the fixtures I can get something "flowed" for reasonable cost.

I'm curious do you have flow stats for Flatheads with various port, relief and cylinder head combos? It would be nice to baseline off known data and save the bench time for any new configuration.

Thanks in advance.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

I am not interested in new blocks. I have a couple in the barn myself (a lot of us seem to be the same). However, new cast iron heads with the "Denver" chamber and stock exterior would really get my attention. My personal request is for the 1938 only 24 stud head exterior...

I don't know that I've ever had my hands on a "Denver" cylinder head. Would like to see some detailed pics if anyone has some.

Do we know the story behind the Denver heads? Why they existed. Who designed them? What purpose did they serve? What specific vehicles did they appear in?

Anyone know the true backstory on those heads?

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

I don't know that I've ever had my hands on a "Denver" cylinder head. Would like to see some detailed pics if anyone has some.

Do we know the story behind the Denver heads? Why they existed. Who designed them? What purpose did they serve? What specific vehicles did they appear in?

Anyone know the true backstory on those heads?

Different chamber and compression ratio to help combustion at high altitudes.

I would also be interested in a set of these; especially if the spark plug location was tweaked like 'Ol Ron suggested.

[Fordors]

Uh, oh. Moving the lifter angles sounds like you are copying the big block Chevy method of enhancing flow.
Seriously though, that comes with other changes. The right bank will now open the intakes early and the left will be late unless cam timing is corrected on the lobes.
I am really an OHV guy, never built a flathead but here's something that I have thought about before. Say a guy finds an original Winfield SU-1A for an early f/h and he uses an adapter to run it with his 8BA block and ignition system. Does anybody check the difference in camshaft events and is it enough to matter? If I check cam timing events on no. 1 and then check no. 6 won't I see them different because the lifter angle was changed in the later block, or "rotated up" as Andy put it? Or am I just looking at that all wrong?

[Henry Floored]

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Originally Posted by Fordors

Uh, oh. Moving the lifter angles sounds like you are copying the big block Chevy method of enhancing flow.
Seriously though, that comes with other changes. The right bank will now open the intakes early and the left will be late unless cam timing is corrected on the lobes.
I am really an OHV guy, never built a flathead but here's something that I have thought about before. Say a guy finds an original Winfield SU-1A for an early f/h and he uses an adapter to run it with his 8BA block and ignition system. Does anybody check the difference in camshaft events and is it enough to matter? If I check cam timing events on no. 1 and then check no. 6 won't I see them different because the lifter angle was changed in the later block, or "rotated up" as Andy put it? Or am I just looking at that all wrong?

You are 100% right. In the case of this discussion I don't think it would add a great deal of cost to the bottom line. We are talking about adjusting timing events intake to exhaust. I'm no cam grinder but that doesn't seem like that's an expensive hurdle.

So to sum it up, the cost of a camshaft which is an expense in almost every build. Not much else changes as far as what you'd have to buy. Even the current crop of cyl heads would be fine. The exception being the normal valve to head clearancing which is normal procedure in the higher lift cam builds.

[Fordors]

I guess I gave the wrong impression with my initial comment, I completely agree that the cam change is no big deal. I hi-jacked your thread by asking my question about early/late cam adaptations.

[Ol' Ron]

In the combustion chamber there is an area known as the " transfer area" This area can be considered as part of the ports. It has an angle in which air/fuel enters the cylinder. The angle, shape and length along with the exit angle determines the CR as well as the flow cheristics of the head. By changing these dimensions and angles, you change the CR and air flow. The "Denver and most aftermarket heads just reduce the angle which raises CR but limits flow. When I was making flow tests I found that an 11/12 degree angle was best and is what most stock heads have. However the exit angle is pretty sharp and increasing it to 60 degs flow improves, Unfortunately this reduces the CR. As for the spark plug location. I would suggest that placing it in the transfer area and at the same angle would improve combustion and low the Octane number of the chamber.
AS you can see this is a complicated issue involving many things. I have some flow data in my book. However it in percentages as I couldnot get accurate CFM
Good luck Plese excuse the spelling

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

In the combustion chamber there is an area known as the " transfer area" This area can be considered as part of the ports. It has an angle in which air/fuel enters the cylinder. The angle, shape and length along with the exit angle determines the CR as well as the flow cheristics of the head. By changing these dimensions and angles, you change the CR and air flow. The "Denver and most aftermarket heads just reduce the angle which raises CR but limits flow. When I was making flow tests I found that an 11/12 degree angle was best and is what most stock heads have. However the exit angle is pretty sharp and increasing it to 60 degs flow improves, Unfortunately this reduces the CR. As for the spark plug location. I would suggest that placing it in the transfer area and at the same angle would improve combustion and low the Octane number of the chamber.
AS you can see this is a complicated issue involving many things. I have some flow data in my book. However it in percentages as I couldnot get accurate CFM
Good luck Plese excuse the spelling

love to see some pictures of the combustion chambers if you have them....

[Ol' Ron]

Yes, I'll gather up a few. Have to get my grandson to post them

[Lawrie]

Are you saying that the cam from an 8ba would alter the timing if used in an early (36) engine
Lawrie

[Fordors]

In Post #94 Andy mentioned that the valves had been moved .090 away from the cylinders by altering the angle the lifter bores were machined on. From my experience as a budget (if there is such a thing) nitro racer the low buck racers will buy used parts. When buying a camshaft for a 426 Chrysler there are two lifter angles for aftermarket aluminum blocks, 45°, which is the stock angle and 48°, used in raised cam blocks. Just to be sure that a cam is in fact ground for 45° we always degree the cam , naturally using no. 1 cylinder and then checking no. 6. If they don't match then the cam was ground for the 48° or vice-versa. I know the flathead was not changed by raising the cam tunnel but changing the lifter angle had the same effect on the lobes, the cam timing is not as designed. I don't know how much the lifter angle changed, maybe it is not enough to matter but that 3° change in angle makes a big difference to our engine.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Excellent post, thank you for your input Andy.

I would like to ask you if say a new block is never approved for competition in any current vintage engine classes, would there be any reason why a racer couldn't just run this theoretical new engine just to get a "personal" record for instance?

If said engine could simply bolt into the same place as an original Flathead Ford what would prevent someone from running this engine in an "open" class?

While the SCTA will not allow a replacement flathead block the other timing associations ECTA and LTA allow the use of replacement flathead blocks on the East Coast. The French block is legal for the X class racers to use if they so chose. I was the guy who proposed this rule change to the ECTA and it was approved.
The last records I set running my XF/BGL Lakester at the Ohio mile was with a French flathead block turning just over 172 MPH the record set at the LTA event with the French block was 182 MPH. These records are the first ever set using the French block for land speed racing.
If and when a replacement block is produced there will be a place to set records and if its determined the improvements are an unfair advantage a class for the new block would be proposed and Im sure approved at least on the East Coast.
Ronnieroadster

[awelker]

I couldn't remember the angle change off the top of my head. Had to look it up.

They are rotated 0.72 degrees up on the post war motors.

[Ol' Ron]

How come, you can use aftermarket Chrisler Hemi and SBC and Ford blocks. Lot of them around, or nobody checks.

[awelker]

In the SCTA the oem blocks applies only to vintage engine classes and the fairly new iron roadster class. All "normal" engine classes that are simply cubic inch ranges you can do anything you want. It could be your very own design engine whittled out of a solid block of metal. All they care about is the cubic inches.

There are three main vintage engine areas:
- V4F/V4 - pre 1935 4 cylinder
- XF/XXF - Ford flathead V8 up to 325 cu in
- XO/XXO - inline 6 (pre a year I can't remember) and other brand flathead V8

[Henry Floored]

Guys this question is a bit off from our technical discussion but I am curious about this.

Would it make a big difference if this new "service" block would be a Ford product or at least a Ford licensed product?

Meaning when a buyer decides to install one of these in his '36 Roadster he or she can feel no qualms because this is still a "Ford" engine.

Is that important? I mean obviously the original design makes it a Ford type engine automatically but wouldn't it be better with Ford Motor Company involvement in some capacity, if only just a Ford certified product?

This is common practice today. A major car company will sanction a block or head in order to make it legal for whatever purpose they intend it for.

Now I'm not saying this is a racing part at all. In fact I hope it would become a reasonable option for a stock rebuild. But in my gut I think Ford badging would authenticate this for many if not all people.

[flatheadmurre]

Ford will have a big chunk of money for making anything official...and since youre not using the ford logo no real need for it.