The Ford Barn

tubman · 10-30-2017, 05:16 PM

Just as an aside. When I was young and poor, I tried to get a couple of engines running without condensers. I was never able to get one going. Has anyone ever gotten an engine to run without a condenser?

Ian NZ · 10-30-2017, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankster

Testing a condenser capacitance value - MFD, or uF, or whatever it is they call it these days, is no problem for even the inexpensive standard digital units. The problem is they don't really perform a meaningful test as to whether it's "leaky". For that they need to have their rated voltage applied, in this instance several hundred volts DC.

I test the Condensers for Capacity, Leakage & Series resistance ohms with a Ford Distributor Stroboscope.

[email protected] · 10-30-2017, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian NZ

I test the Condensers for Capacity, Leakage & Series resistance ohms with a Ford Distributor Stroboscope.

Do you sell Model A coils that test to your specifications?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ol' Ron · 10-30-2017, 06:49 PM

I'm not a purest. I don't try to produce these cars or engines as they were originally. Building a car for a museum is another matte. Dealing with Points and condensers in this day and age, is a fools errand. The conversion to electronic replacement, has been figgered out and most distributors can be modified. I have a beautiful Early Mallory that Richard did, works like a champ..I realize this is a personal choice and have a great deal of respect for thoise that continue to improve this old system. BUt, for a daily driver?????

tubman · 10-30-2017, 07:05 PM

It's a matter of personal choice. I have never in my life been left stranded by a problem with a conventional points ignition. They give you a lot of warning that they need some TLC. I have read, both here and several other places, of unexpected total failures of aftermarket electronic ignition systems leaving people stranded at the side of the road at the worst times. They just don't seem to be built to the reliability standards that factory systems are. These cars are a hobby, and part of the enjoyment of the hobby is doing adequate maintenance. Standing at the side of the road waiting for help is not a part of it in my opinion.

But then Ron, you always said I was "putser".

Crankster · 10-30-2017, 07:46 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman

Just as an aside. When I was young and poor, I tried to get a couple of engines running without condensers. I was never able to get one going. Has anyone ever gotten an engine to run without a condenser?

I would say "no" but then I've talked with people who say it's been done. Probably not very well or, at least not for very long. You should have experimented with home rolled capacitors. Gumwrappers used to be made of waxed paper and foil, should have been able to get something going, ha!

I installed a Pertronix Ignitor some years ago mainly because it's difficult to access the distributor at the back of the engine. I wasn't too clear on the concept of points, and the distributor was well worn. But I never paid them any particular attention and never had any problems. But it didn't run anywhere like it should and when I got more serious about tuning discovered that a worn distributor will not achieve or hold a proper or consistent dwell among other things. So in went a solid state module. It ran a lot better. After replacing the distributor itself it ran even better yet. For me it's just a hobby, I enjoy learning about obsolete tech and making things work as they are supposed to.

I think the tuneup interval was 8k miles or something like that, several years today for most collector car owners. The only caveat really is the cheap points & condensers flooding the aftermarket. If you're going to run them they have to be quality materials, and a tight distributor, not all loosey goosey.

JSeery · 10-30-2017, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman

Just as an aside. When I was young and poor, I tried to get a couple of engines running without condensers. I was never able to get one going. Has anyone ever gotten an engine to run without a condenser?

If you did get it to run it would not run well, the coil needs a capacitor to work properly.

tubman · 10-30-2017, 08:22 PM

The point I am trying to make is that I don't think it would run at all. I was just wondering if anyone was ever able to get one to run without the condenser. So far no one has said they were able to.

koates · 10-30-2017, 11:05 PM

In my 55 years at auto electrical work I have found an engine will not start or run if the condenser is completely disconnected. Having said that if a condenser is faulty and still connected then it might start and run badly depending on the fault with the condenser. Some might be shorted to ground or have a very high series resistance or the capacity changed totally out of spec. So to say an engine will not run with a faulty condenser.... WHAT IS FAULTY WITH IT ? most people will never know because they don't have an approved condenser tester. Regards, Kevin.

Crankster · 10-30-2017, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman

The point I am trying to make is that I don't think it would run at all. I was just wondering if anyone was ever able to get one to run without the condenser. So far no one has said they were able to.

Like I said, I haven't tried it, but people I've talked to says it can be done. Have faith! lol Here is an account or two after a quick Goolag search:

http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read...,743934,743948

MGG · 10-31-2017, 12:07 AM

Interesting thread. I have read through it twice but I am still unclear about something. When in the ignition cycle does the charge stored in the condenser go to ground, or does it? They are all hooked up with a ground are they not?

Brian · 10-31-2017, 03:30 AM

Wasn't it Mart on here who once talked about using a potato as a capacitor?

OHV DeLuxe · 10-31-2017, 03:46 AM

This is our test equipment. 1940s VLC (european KRW) from a local Ford shop still works wonderfully, Serial resistance, leakage and capitance. 220 volts.
The other tester is for coils.

B_man_Al · 10-31-2017, 05:39 AM

MGC .. Hope this will help ... its part of a presentation I did for my grandaughters science class last Feb. It shows the charge and discharge paths for an ignition coil and how the currents flow.

Crankster · 10-31-2017, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGG

When in the ignition cycle does the charge stored in the condenser go to ground, or does it?

The next time the points close. It's magic.

flatheadmurre · 10-31-2017, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankster

The next time the points close. It's magic.

After it has gone back and forth to the coil a couple of times...

MGG · 10-31-2017, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B_man_Al

MGC .. Hope this will help ... its part of a presentation I did for my grandaughters science class last Feb. It shows the charge and discharge paths for an ignition coil and how the currents flow.

Thanks for the diagrams B_man_Al. What is switch S1?

JSeery · 10-31-2017, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

After it has gone back and forth to the coil a couple of times...

Oh we're back to "ring" LOL

Sorry, just couldn't resist!!!!

koates · 10-31-2017, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGG

Thanks for the diagrams B_man_Al. What is switch S1?

S1 is the ignition switch. Regards, Kevin.

koates · 10-31-2017, 08:22 AM

You know it would benefit most ordinary people who are trying to understand all of these posts, if the university degree electrical engineers and wanna be NASA scientists could keep their explanations to basic facts. We know you are clever but we don't need to be reminded of it with your every answer. Regards, Basic Kevin.

10-30-2017, 05:16 PM	#41
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,316	Re: Condenser Capacitiance. Just as an aside. When I was young and poor, I tried to get a couple of engines running without condensers. I was never able to get one going. Has anyone ever gotten an engine to run without a condenser?

10-30-2017, 06:49 PM	#44
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Condenser Capacitiance. I'm not a purest. I don't try to produce these cars or engines as they were originally. Building a car for a museum is another matte. Dealing with Points and condensers in this day and age, is a fools errand. The conversion to electronic replacement, has been figgered out and most distributors can be modified. I have a beautiful Early Mallory that Richard did, works like a champ..I realize this is a personal choice and have a great deal of respect for thoise that continue to improve this old system. BUt, for a daily driver?????

10-30-2017, 07:05 PM	#45
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,316	Re: Condenser Capacitiance. It's a matter of personal choice. I have never in my life been left stranded by a problem with a conventional points ignition. They give you a lot of warning that they need some TLC. I have read, both here and several other places, of unexpected total failures of aftermarket electronic ignition systems leaving people stranded at the side of the road at the worst times. They just don't seem to be built to the reliability standards that factory systems are. These cars are a hobby, and part of the enjoyment of the hobby is doing adequate maintenance. Standing at the side of the road waiting for help is not a part of it in my opinion. But then Ron, you always said I was "putser".

10-30-2017, 08:22 PM	#48
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,316	Re: Condenser Capacitiance. The point I am trying to make is that I don't think it would run at all. I was just wondering if anyone was ever able to get one to run without the condenser. So far no one has said they were able to.

10-30-2017, 11:05 PM	#49
koates Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Melbourne Australia. Posts: 2,079	Re: Condenser Capacitiance. In my 55 years at auto electrical work I have found an engine will not start or run if the condenser is completely disconnected. Having said that if a condenser is faulty and still connected then it might start and run badly depending on the fault with the condenser. Some might be shorted to ground or have a very high series resistance or the capacity changed totally out of spec. So to say an engine will not run with a faulty condenser.... WHAT IS FAULTY WITH IT ? most people will never know because they don't have an approved condenser tester. Regards, Kevin.

10-31-2017, 12:07 AM	#51
MGG Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Oregon City, OR Posts: 285	Re: Condenser Capacitiance. Interesting thread. I have read through it twice but I am still unclear about something. When in the ignition cycle does the charge stored in the condenser go to ground, or does it? They are all hooked up with a ground are they not?

10-31-2017, 03:30 AM	#52
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,834	Re: Condenser Capacitiance. Wasn't it Mart on here who once talked about using a potato as a capacitor? __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

10-31-2017, 08:22 AM	#60
koates Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Melbourne Australia. Posts: 2,079	Re: Condenser Capacitiance. You know it would benefit most ordinary people who are trying to understand all of these posts, if the university degree electrical engineers and wanna be NASA scientists could keep their explanations to basic facts. We know you are clever but we don't need to be reminded of it with your every answer. Regards, Basic Kevin.