New Model A Engine - Update from Terry Burtz

[Mike in NRN IN]

I love receiving the update e-mails from Terry Burtz regarding the new Model A Engine he is creating from scratch.

With all the challenges he has been facing getting a good casting, it makes me really appreciate the millions of engines that Ford was able to create in the 4-5 years of Model A history.

I hope that Terry will have better luck with casting number 6.

[Mike in NRN IN]

This is the message from Terry Burtz.

I did not include the pictures.

Hello to All, 24 May 2011
Updates
As stated in the March 2011 update, I have committed to give a seminar at the MARC convention in San Diego (late June 2011), and my optimistic goal was to have a running engine by then. This will not happen, however I hope to have good castings to display.
In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com
If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at [email protected], and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.
Because several people have been added to the update list, and since I have not taken the time to reply, some of the words in this update and the attached picture of the crankshaft and connecting rods will be redundant.
Readers of this update need to understand that this effort is a 1 man operation and privately funded. Every change is being made from an engineering point of view of how things can be made better and cheaper while staying within the restraints of keeping the exterior as original and maintaining all interfaces for attaching parts as original.
Cylinder Block
Lodi Iron Works has cast 5 cylinder blocks. #1 had gating problems and the core assembly was known to be broken during mold closure. The revised gating worked on casting #2, but it had a broken core problem. Casting #3 also had a broken core problem. Cores and the core assembly for casting #4 were made to my verbal procedure and everything was good except for a shift of the water jacket core towards the ports. Attachment #1 is a jpeg image of cut apart casting #4 on the conference table at Lodi Iron Works. Cores and the core assembly for casting #5 were made mostly following a written procedure supplemented with my verbal help, and it was poured on May 20, 2011, with the mold being broken open on May 22, 2011.
The exterior of casting #5 looks great, and there is no evidence of core shift. However casting #5 is unusable because of venting problems. Casting #5 will be cut apart just like casting #4 to verify wall thickness. Attachment #2 is a jpeg image of casting #5 before cleaning. Attachment #3 is a jpeg image of casting #5 after cleaning.
Several technical meetings at Lodi Iron Works have occurred since the last update. Much is discussed at these meetings, including lesions learned on the last casting attempt, presentation of new tooling (gages) that will insure that cores are in the correct position during core assembly, changes that will reduce labor, and the implementation of a procedure to insure that previous errors are not repeated.
There was a technical meeting this morning at Lodi Iron Works. I have several action items to modify core boxes that will make stronger cores with less labor. Lodi Iron Works also has several action items including evaluation of a new core paste and to modify the procedure so that the venting problems found in casting #5 are not repeated.
Connecting Rod, Main Caps, and Crankshaft
Good castings of these parts were displayed at the Turlock swap meet and are ready for machining. Compared to the cylinder block, these parts are very simple.
The material that was used to cast these parts is Meehanite SP80 (80-55-06). Other uses for this material include suspension parts, and even off road front spindles where the stub axle is lowered to provide additional ground clearance.
Attachment #4 is a picture of the crankshaft, connecting rods, and main caps.
GD&T, Tolerances, Machining, and Surface Finishes
My plan is to have the cylinder block machined locally (Silicon Valley) and have the crankshaft and connecting rods machined by a machine shop that specializes in crankshafts and connecting rods. On the way to the MARC convention, I am planning on taking the crankshaft and connecting rod castings along with SolidWorks models for machining to Cunningham in Gardena, Carrillo in Irvine, Crower in San Diego, Marine Crankshaft Inc. in Santa Ana, and Scat in Redondo Beach to obtain estimates for machining. The above manufacturers are in the business of machining connecting rods and crankshafts and have the equipment and knowledge to machine quality parts.

Next Update
The next update will be in 2 months or sooner.
Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.

[Dick So. Cal.]

I am still looking forward to the seminar in San Diego. I have been following Terry's program for quite a while and would love to see first hand what he has done.

Hope to see some 'Barners' there, too.

Dick

[Benson]

Guys,

Here are the pictures ... I made them smaller so everyone can view them even on slow connections.

The reason for this is that in the email the pictures are 2MB each!

Sorry the rods and crank picture arrived as only small file so you can not enlarge it.

[JoeWay]

Here's a larger version of the crank & rods photo.

Joe

[hardtimes]

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Originally Posted by JoeWay

Here's a larger version of the crank & rods photo.

Joe

Joe, thanks for helping with us...'slow connections'!
What's amazing about Terry, is........he's a one man show! Always enjoyed his input on the ole barn. Hmm, guess he's busy as all heck with this project. Here's hopeing that I'm still able to enjoy his creation , by the time it comes available. We're pulling for you Terry. Keep up your great efforts!

[Chris Haynes]

I still get excited when I see these pictures.

[Lorenzo]

I come fairly late to this conversation, 'scuse me. I agree with all who admire what Terry is going for. It's hard to imagine why anyone would perceive his dream with disinterested skepticism, but there's them that do. The engine, looking exactly like an original, will be waaaaaaay stronger than Henry's. I am sure Henry would be the first to agree. Henry be sayin', "You remind me of me, boy," and offering up a handsome contract to Mr. Burtz for services to be rendered in the bright idea/determined to get it done department. The skepticism has gotta be Geezerness. Me, I'm only 68.5, so I don't sit around thinking good enough is good enough. Well, if you only drive your car a few hundred miles a year, a
parade clown, or whatever, I suppose you have a point. But Terry sees an engine that will buzz you anywhere for a hundred thousand plus miles, sans leaks, just as Japanese engineers have done (even though they were bigtime a-holes in 1943 when I was born). I do realize many of us here have no need of a 100K engine. Tempus fugit. But if Terry pulls this admirable trick off, I will get out there on the road, go everywhere, and start getting my money back.

[ctlikon0712]

I just added my vote to this thread, very interesting! We're all pulling for you Terry!

[Chris Haynes]

I understand that a few weeks ago Terry got an acceptable block cast. Rumor has it that Jon Lavoy has it and is getting the machine work done to it.

[Jamie86]

This would be a great to have, as another option. Hopefully, everything works out for all
concerned. I wish Terry all the best.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jamie86

This would be a great to have, as another option. Hopefully, everything works out for all
concerned. I wish Terry all the best.

Nope, no workable block yet!
Just got latest email today, and their working on casting # 10, I believe it said. Go Terry !

[Pilotdave]

Like many I am following Terry's project with much interest and want to offer encouragement as he works through the design and build issues. I'm really impressed when I think about what he's doing - essentially, he's undertaken a pioneering effort because he can and because he want to. I wish him and those working with him the best as they push ahead.

[1930artdeco]

Just imagine how many castings that Henry went through! And he had a full foundry at his disposal. When Terry gets this engine done, this will be my next engine-many, many years down the road.

Mike

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

When Terry gets this engine done, this will be my next engine-many, many years down the road.

Mike

It will be my next engine as soon as one is available.

[Terry, NJ]

It was just a matter of time (and old unreliable cast iron!) The chinese were casting new ford 8N. 9N blocks ten years ago. They were selling NEW engines for under $2500. through Valu-bilt.
Terry

[Chris Haynes]

Any news on Terry's project?

[dumb person]

Yes i would like to hear more. And if they make reproduction gearboxes some day too...

[t-head]

What Terry is trying to do is very difficult as most foundries do not have the knowledge of how to pore a complex casting like this. I wish him well.

Having worked with a pattern maker and a foundry and having successfully cast and machined new blocks for a 1915 Duesenberg racing car and a 1913 Packard, I know first hand how hard this is to do.

Does anyone have any recent news about the effort??

[anteek]

It's sacriligous,but a firm in china or taiwan could do the casting properly. Tell them you will pay for it done right with whatever alloy and tolerances he wants. makes me cry but the have their s--t together like we don't,more modern equipment and the firing squad. A real sad state of affairs for us. I want one also,in my lifetime.

[Great Lakes Greg]

Could these also be cast in aluminum with the same molds? Just wondering.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Originally Posted by Great Lakes Greg

Could these also be cast in aluminum with the same molds? Just wondering.

Aluminum would probably need different molds, sized to deal with different shrinkage rate for Aluminum ?

[Milton]

Originally Posted by Great Lakes Greg

Could these also be cast in aluminum with the same molds? Just wondering.

Donovan does the aluminum B blocks that are referred to as Model D's.

http://www.donovanengineering.com/Bl...delDBlock.html

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by Milton

Donovan does the aluminum B blocks that are referred to as Model D's.

http://www.donovanengineering.com/Bl...delDBlock.html

Hmmm i see no price tag but would that bolt onto the model A oil pan on my existing engine?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by dumb person

hmmm i see no price tag but would that bolt onto the model a oil pan on my existing engine?

total price of model d donovan engine, less carburetor & ignition system as of 12-2002 $16,944.28


https://fordbarn.com/forum/showpost.p...55&postcount=4

[Chris Haynes]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by dumb person

Hmmm i see no price tag but would that bolt onto the model A oil pan on my existing engine?

If I recall correctly a complete Donavan engine runs close to 18 Grand.

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

total price of model d donovan engine, less carburetor & ignition system as of 12-2002 $16,944.28


https://fordbarn.com/forum/showpost.p...55&postcount=4

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

If I recall correctly a complete Donavan engine runs close to 18 Grand.

Eek, i guess i can dream. Big dreams small means.

[Bill in Al]

I'm getting real old in a hurry so I want one of his engines ASAP.

[Chris Haynes]

Still no news from Terry since February 2013.
Lord. Give me patience. But do it now!

[Chris Haynes]

Any news lately?

[hardtimes]

Hey Chris,
YEAH....BIG NEWS !!!
I'm still here ...whoohoo !
That's the good news. The bad news, is that I haven't seen any updates and that has me worried. My current 'dream' is to have two new engines, i.e.- one by Terry and one by Tod...ahh, still young enough to dream,eh

[tbirdtbird]

would it be possible to have Terry post updates and pix here on the Barn himself?

[SAJ]

A few weeks ago 6 of us from NZ spent a day with Terry and his wife Nadia.
We were shown many, many interesting projects, tools, etc at his Aladdin's Cave workshops.
I wrote an article for our Club newsletter about the visit and his progress to date and the excerpt from the newsletter is on my web page here LINK.
I have not heard from Terry since, but hope Globe Foundry is progressing with new castings.
SAJ in NZ

[Chris Haynes]

I hear that Globe did not work out. Terry is searching for a foundry that will take the time to handle his work properly and not want a kings ransom to do it. It you know anybody let him know.

[Mikeinnj]

[QUOTE=hardtimes;967231]Hey Chris,
YEAH....BIG NEWS !!!
I'm still here ...whoohoo !
That's the good news. The bad news, is that I haven't seen any updates and that has me worried. My current 'dream' is to have two new engines, i.e.- one by Terry and one by Tod...ahh, still young enough to dream,eh [/QUOT

I wonder if Terry and Todd have considered working together on the same project, sharing ideas ,resources, and experience. ?

[Mikeinnj]

Not sure Tom, but sometimes "two heads are better than one" and I am not referring to cylinder heads... from what I have read on this forum it seems that both men share the same ambition and have both experienced setbacks from time to time in their endeavors.

[hardtimes]

[QUOTE=Mikeinnj;968167]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Chris,
YEAH....BIG NEWS !!!
I'm still here ...whoohoo !
That's the good news. The bad news, is that I haven't seen any updates and that has me worried. My current 'dream' is to have two new engines, i.e.- one by Terry and one by Tod...ahh, still young enough to dream,eh [/QUOT

I wonder if Terry and Todd have considered working together on the same project, sharing ideas ,resources, and experience. ?

Hey Mike,
I doubt it, as, IMO...Tod's goal is to produce PARTS that we can work into our hobby/projects. Terry's goal is to produce a short block that we in the hobby can use. They both strive to make better equipment for us, each in their own manner from thousands of miles apart. Win/win, I say, as they both are Americans making stuff in America for us. Each walks his own path towards their goals, as we all must.

[tbirdtbird]

you may have missed the part where Tod is casting blocks and brought one to Hershey. Anyone on his email list gets pix of the blocks he has done

[Tod]

I have refrained from inserting myself into any discussion of Terry's work, since I do not appreciate discussion of his project mixed in with my threads. But since the same basic question has been asked many times, "Why not work together?", let me say that I have not been approached, and having seen updates of Terry's project, I could only offer advice at this point, which some might construe as criticism. My foundry and I could get Terry blocks but there would need to be a course correction for it to happen. Terry might not want to hear my suggestions nor care for the cost involved in getting to the goal. Since we are not really hitting the same market (in my opinion), at least yet, I would not be against working together, but that would mean I may have to fore-go any 5 main blocks and for me to do that I would need to be compensated for cutting myself out of that part of the market. Now, how do you think that would go over to anyone in business? Probably not so well. So, to answer the question, it is unlikely that we will work together because Terry has invested himself in one direction whereas, to work with me would mean a change in direction as well as an undetermined cost.

When I started working on my block I had no idea anyone else was working on one. When I found out about Terry's block, and its specs, I just proceeded, figuring we were targeting completely different customer bases. That is still my belief, except that the interest in 5 main blocks has shifted in my direction owing to the problems Terry is facing. Since the work involved in filling that market is so minimal, I would be a fool to ignore it. Just how profitable that niche can be is an unknown to me, but, for someone to put in the resources Terry has the market either has potential for great profit or terry went into it purely for the sport of it. But I am still fairly young and am in business to pay bills and make a profit. I may never get rich, but I need to stay afloat. CNC machines are expensive to own and operate and I have 6 that need to stay busy.

I hope that short explanation is not viewed as anything other than an answer to the question. I am not seeking to comment on my project at the expense of Terry or to bash anyone else. If these comments are unwanted, I will remove them myself.

Tod

[Russ/40]

Nicely put Tod. Couldn't ask for a more forthright response to the question. I wish both of you the greatest of success, and follow progress with eager anticipation.