New block, a further discussion

[Henry Floored]

Going back a little bit and maybe thinking a bit outside the box......

I'm sure everyone is familiar with the early "tin sides" V8 60 engines. Why did Ford do this on those little engines? Was it a way to facilitate an easier casting process?

Now step ahead to later engines. Let's think about what people wrongly call "freeze out" plugs. Those are actually core plugs to provide an out for casting sands in the foundry.

Many respondents here have mentioned how hard it would be to cast a Flatty most notably because of the internal exhaust boxes.

Now I'm not suggesting a tin sided new generation Flatty would be feasible or even desirable. What I am saying maybe is that some compromises could be made to make something like this a reality.

Why couldn't some small windows be positioned in the block to provide access for supports for the internal exhaust cores? Wouldn't that make all the difference in the world?

After casting and machining, small cover plates could cover the access windows.

This kind of thing is done on a variety of complex cast water cooled engines. It is also done on "forged" block racing engines that run water cooling.

I realize that this could impact the appearance of the engine BUT, maybe theses access places could be located on the inside of the valley area.

On the other hand if they had to be placed on the outside maybe their appearance could be minimized or maybe even enhanced such as a finned cover to pick up the look of the cylinder heads.

Just thinking guys.

[Henry Floored]

Well the heck with it. I'm gonna bump my own thread for shits and giggles. Anyone else care to chime in?

[itslow]

Originally Posted by richard crow

why not just repro the ardun set up .

That's already being reproduced. Cost is somewhere between $10k-20 for a set.

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

...Why couldn't some small windows be positioned in the block to provide access for supports for the internal exhaust cores? Wouldn't that make all the difference in the world?

After casting and machining, small cover plates could cover the access windows...

In order to support the cores for the exhaust passages, the windows would wind up being in the walls of the exhaust passages. Those would not be particularly easy to weld cover plates over. Not quite sure a thin "tin" cover would be an ideal thing to have in an exhaust port, either.

I think if someone is going to be spending $2500+ or whatever on a block, they aren't going to be willing to purchase one that has tin sides or covered core support holes in the ports.

[louisb]

Until the cost of patching up an original iron block passes the cost of casting a new block I doubt you will be able to sell very many. And even then I think the cost of the French blocks will set the ceiling for a new block. As to which to cast I would say the French block since it can be made to work like a 59 or 8ba series engine. I would quite happily trade my good 8rt block for a 59 style block.

Thanks,

--louis

[Seth Swoboda]

I have built both the 59A block and the 8BA block. I prefer the 59A over the 8BA. I'm not sure why. I do prefer the 59A two bolt distributor over that lousy Load-A-Matic distributor. I like the water outlet in the center of the head.

[louisb]

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What might be better and easier would be to round up a bunch of Ford blocks, test them and sell them already machined.

--louis

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

I have built both the 59A block and the 8BA block. I prefer the 59A over the 8BA. I'm not sure why. I do prefer the 59A two bolt distributor over that lousy Load-A-Matic distributor. I like the water outlet in the center of the head.

I agree Seth for the most part. I like the looks of the early engine better. I hate the more difficult serviceability though. On my '41 putting a quart of oil in can be quite a stretching exercise.

I think maybe Motor City has it exactly right. 8BA out back and 59A on the front. The middle of the engine can be used in either version.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by louisb

What might be better and easier would be to round up a bunch of Ford blocks, test them and sell them already machined.

--louis

Louis this is a great point. While it would be easier said than done it sure would save a lot of trouble.

Of course all the velvety goodness of an updated block would not be realized. I envision a block that can produce more power since the breathing happens there. It's as simple as that.

[louisb]

This is true. Be sure to include a method for oil filtering if you do move forward.

Thanks,

--louis

[Ol' Ron]

You might want to talk to Ferguson out in California. He makes the Ardun OHV conversion for the flathead. He also made Blocks as well. Unfortunately they had no ports.

[flatheadmurre]

I just took down our brass/aluminum foundry and moved it to the new shop location.
To make something like this happen you need to raise 200k from people not intrested in profit...then it will take about a year to make molds and coreboxes..make some tests...correct whats wrong...and make a test series.
After that you need about a year of roadtesting to see what kind of built in tension and other issues you got to adress.
In year number 3 you can start selling and the people investing the money can then buy a block at reduced price.
Its not undoable just a very hard task to get the financial part to work out.
If you could sell one a week...im not sure you could sell one a month...no one wants to set up machining equipment for doing one at a time..

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

I just took down our brass/aluminum foundry and moved it to the new shop location.
To make something like this happen you need to raise 200k from people not intrested in profit...then it will take about a year to make molds and coreboxes..make some tests...correct whats wrong...and make a test series.
After that you need about a year of roadtesting to see what kind of built in tension and other issues you got to adress.
In year number 3 you can start selling and the people investing the money can then buy a block at reduced price.
Its not undoable just a very hard task to get the financial part to work out.
If you could sell one a week...im not sure you could sell one a month...no one wants to set up machining equipment for doing one at a time..

When can we start? Let's talk.

[rotorwrench]

Most of the folks that do one off casting projects are making a part for a very rare and highly prized collector car. Sad thing is, most of that type of stuff is simpler to do unless you are working on some big 12 or 16 cylinder car and most of those had the same engine as the base production models so a person can still source a repairable block and some of the other parts.

FoMoCo made so much of the stuff and it fit all the different body styles and even trucks so they could make it for a very low price per unit. They went from Canadian iron ore to complete block pretty quick at the Rouge foundry. I'm sure they had a fair amount of failures but they likely went right back into the smelter.

Folks find some pretty clever ways to repair & strengthen stuff on these old blocks. One guy on the HAMB machined a complete steel skirt to bolt up to the oil pan flange and mains. He made it where the skirt provided more strength to the main bearings since it acted like a girdle. The oil pan just bolted up the the lower flange of the skirt so he had to make an extension for the oil pick up. I never did see if he competed it or not but is sounded like a good idea.

Someone may even try to find a way to machine away the cylinder deck and cylinders then cast or machine a new assembly that can be installed and bolted with o-rings or something to seal it up. Rodders have been doing this kind of stuff for years. That's a reason to keep some of those old damaged blocks if they aren't too screwed up. You never know what kind of fix someone will come up with.

[aonemarine]

why does the block have to be cast in iron or aluminum? Why not cast it in bronze?
why does it have to be sand cast? why not investment block cast it?
why in the hello do i think of this crazy stuff?

125lbs of silicone bronze = $625.00, 500 lbs investment = $675.00 expensive yes but easily repairable, more ductile than grey iron, less likely to have casting problems if done under vacuum.....Not good for high production due to material costs.......
Hmm could some crazy redneck in his back yard pull it off?? I wouldnt bet against it

[flatheadmurre]

When we´re talking low series and not to damn cost sensitive with the goal to produce an authentic replica my vote goes to cast iron with a high nickel content that would make a real good block still looking like it should and stronger with less chance to crack then original.

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

When we´re talking low series and not to damn cost sensitive with the goal to produce an authentic replica my vote goes to cast iron with a high nickel content that would make a real good block still looking like it should and stronger with less chance to crack then original.

I know what you mean. but for simplicity from a metallurgical standpoint.... well Iron can be pretty damn sensitive....

[flatheadmurre]

Anything that is way off from original will not be alowed to compete in classic racing, and that would be one of the places blocks will be needed.
Next is logistics...probably going to have to ship the tooling around the world rather then blocks if it´s going to be cost effective.
Changing the designator for where it was cast 59U(US) and for wherever it was poored that way being a replica and you are able to tell so.

[Brian]

Can't be done- no way- absolutely no way can anybody [corporate or individual] mass produce a flathead Ford V8 styled block these days....I know, because in this modern technological age we live in, the repro industry cannot even replicate simple parts that fit, that Ford, and others, churned out by the millions. We're so advanced....
Interesting as this thread is, [I am into getting great performance with ultra reliability outta my flatheads], all this is, in my opinion is conjecture. A dream...
Flatheads; you'll never spend so much to go so slow- Fact!!
Very, very interesting thread all the same.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Brian

Can't be done- no way- absolutely no way can anybody [corporate or individual] mass produce a flathead Ford V8 styled block these days....I know, because in this modern technological age we live in, the repro industry cannot even replicate simple parts that fit, that Ford, and others, churned out by the millions. We're so advanced....
Interesting as this thread is, [I am into getting great performance with ultra reliability outta my flatheads], all this is, in my opinion is conjecture. A dream...
Flatheads; you'll never spend so much to go so slow- Fact!!
Very, very interesting thread all the same.

Well I hope you're not right and when the apocalypse or Armageddon happens and the enemy attacks our power grid rendering all electronic devices useless I will be the one driving around in one of my two Flathead powered vehicles.

You see like cockroaches, these things seem like they'll survive the end of the world as we know it. When everyone else is walking you will think my Flatheads are very fast.

On a serious note it can be done. It's the wrong attitude that stops most everything. Attitude is altitude- Fact!

Here's what you do. You visualize shiny brand new and improved Flathead Ford engines stacked up from floor to ceiling and by the hundreds. Out front the phones are ringing off the hook and the people responsible for answering those calls can't keep up with the barrage of interest. It's at that very moment you realize that you have tapped into a pent up demand like no one has ever seen before.

You visualize that and work backwards.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Anything that is way off from original will not be alowed to compete in classic racing, and that would be one of the places blocks will be needed.
Next is logistics...probably going to have to ship the tooling around the world rather then blocks if it´s going to be cost effective.
Changing the designator for where it was cast 59U(US) and for wherever it was poored that way being a replica and you are able to tell so.

Now this is a valid point and one I hear a lot. Here's my take......

It's hogwash for any timing association to disallow a new Flathead block. I understand any vehicle using the new block would probably need a new designation very simply because there is much room for improvement and a new block would most likely take advantage of that.

Now the last time I checked the Flathead Fords and even the earlier Ford Four Bangers were the engines that made this whole land speed contest a reality for the average guy.

When a Flathead powered car pulls up to the line at Bonneville all the officials should genuflect and do the sign of the cross out of reverence for goodness of and out of thanks for the very existence for Henry's wonderful bent 8.

Nah seriously a new block needs to be discussed with the future of the "XF" classes in mind. There are hardly if any factory blocked- headed chivolays out there. Why do they get special treatment? I think those things should be illegal on the grounds that those are the engines that ruined hot rodding.