A Flathead in Engine Masters?

[38 coupe]

While we are on the budget is not a consideration, theoretical max power flathead subject, I have a question. Why don't any of the flathead Bonneville racers use a destroked 337 Lincoln motor in the flathead class (max 325 cubes)? Bigger ports, bigger intake valves, bigger main bearings, factory forged crank, huge oil pump volume, larger valve lifter diameter, etc. It looks to me like you could get a bit more power from one of these than out of a stretched to the limit Ford motor.

I know these things are heavy (I've got one), and a lot of parts would have to be custom made, but so what? Bonneville cars get weight added, and custom made parts is the norm for Bonneville flatheads. So why not the big Lincoln?

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

While we are on the budget is not a consideration, theoretical max power flathead subject, I have a question. Why don't any of the flathead Bonneville racers use a destroked 337 Lincoln motor in the flathead class (max 325 cubes)? Bigger ports, bigger intake valves, bigger main bearings, factory forged crank, huge oil pump volume, larger valve lifter diameter, etc. It looks to me like you could get a bit more power from one of these than out of a stretched to the limit Ford motor.

I know these things are heavy (I've got one), and a lot of parts would have to be custom made, but so what? Bonneville cars get weight added, and custom made parts is the norm for Bonneville flatheads. So why not the big Lincoln?

I agree with you 100%. I've only seen inside a 337 one time but it looks like Ford addressed every facet and improved on it over the smaller engines. Would love to get my hands on one. Excellent engine. Saw one in a Muntz Jet once.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

While we are on the budget is not a consideration, theoretical max power flathead subject, I have a question. Why don't any of the flathead Bonneville racers use a destroked 337 Lincoln motor in the flathead class (max 325 cubes)? Bigger ports, bigger intake valves, bigger main bearings, factory forged crank, huge oil pump volume, larger valve lifter diameter, etc. It looks to me like you could get a bit more power from one of these than out of a stretched to the limit Ford motor.

I know these things are heavy (I've got one), and a lot of parts would have to be custom made, but so what? Bonneville cars get weight added, and custom made parts is the norm for Bonneville flatheads. So why not the big Lincoln?

The rules for Bonneville Land Speed Racing specify any production Ford / Mercury pasenger car V-8 flathead 1932 throw 1953 max cubes 325. The Lincoln flathead is not allowed.


Heres my ideas for the engine masters challange if the flathead was included. Start with a new French flathead block the exhaust dog bone issue has been eliminated. Next work towards a half inch valve lift actuated by rollers cam located in a tunnel flooded with oil the intake port shape issues would be greatly eliminated. Using a USA made crankshaft with five main bearings increase stroke to at least 4-1/2 inch. Next the rods would be of a beam type. Oiling changes including proper windage control and piston oil spray bars duplicating the latest technoligy used in any of the new factory high HP V-8's. Igntion crank trigered the spark plugs 3/4 reach with heat ranges adjustable for load required.
Induction would be updated to a computer contoled system for the best air fuel ratios that allow HP and Torque gains. Combustion chamber design would follow the last design developed by Harley Davidson for their racing program in the sixtys. Thats where I would start not sure where I would end.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

The rules for Bonneville Land Speed Racing specify any production Ford / Mercury pasenger car V-8 flathead 1932 throw 1953 max cubes 325. The Lincoln flathead is not allowed.


Heres my ideas for the engine masters challange if the flathead was included. Start with a new French flathead block the exhaust dog bone issue has been eliminated. Next work towards a half inch valve lift actuated by rollers cam located in a tunnel flooded with oil the intake port shape issues would be greatly eliminated. Using a USA made crankshaft with five main bearings increase stroke to at least 4-1/2 inch. Next the rods would be of a beam type. Oiling changes including proper windage control and piston oil spray bars duplicating the latest technoligy used in any of the new factory high HP V-8's. Igntion crank trigered the spark plugs 3/4 reach with heat ranges adjustable for load required.
Induction would be updated to a computer contoled system for the best air fuel ratios that allow HP and Torque gains. Combustion chamber design would follow the last design developed by Harley Davidson for their racing program in the sixtys. Thats where I would start not sure where I would end.

Great post Ronnie! Good ideas. I like the roller cam idea not just for max lift but for the rate of lift. Any Flathead breathes sideways off the valve seat, so low and mid lift specs are even more important. I like it!

[scooder]

Would that frog flathead be allowed in this engine masters thing? It does state American V8, 1954 or older, not including the hemi. A French engine built much later surely don't comply. I know they ain't allowed at Bonneville.
Martin.

[Henry Floored]

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Originally Posted by scooder

Would that frog flathead be allowed in this engine masters thing? It does state American V8, 1954 or older, not including the hemi. A French engine built much later surely don't comply. I know they ain't allowed at Bonneville.
Martin.

Yeah I'll bet the French Flatty would probably be deemed illegal. I would like to see what could be done with ancient Henry iron anyway. I hope the final rules don't allow the OHV's aftermarket heads as well since they were never available pre-'54.

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Yeah I'll bet the French Flatty would probably be deemed illegal. I would like to see what could be done with ancient Henry iron anyway. I hope the final rules don't allow the OHV's aftermarket heads as well since they were never available pre-'54.

I can't understand how people call them "Ardun Flatheads". No, sorry, it's not a flathead anymore. Very cool and valuable, but not a flathead.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

I can't understand how people call them "Ardun Flatheads". No, sorry, it's not a flathead anymore. Very cool and valuable, but not a flathead.

I think the Ardun should be allowed because they were available at the time. What I meant was I don't think an Olds or Caddy should be able to use some modern interpretation of their heads in aluminum. I'd like to see how these old engines really compared. The Arduns were a true option and actually were part of the scene back in the day.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

I think the Ardun should be allowed because they were available at the time. What I meant was I don't think an Olds or Caddy should be able to use some modern interpretation of their heads in aluminum. I'd like to see how these old engines really compared. The Arduns were a true option and actually were part of the scene back in the day.

Do you have any background on the Duntov Brother heads? They were not Ford-produced options. They were aftermarket, like Edelbrock and Navarro, etc. DD

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Do you have any background on the Duntov Brother heads? They were not Ford-produced options. They were aftermarket, like Edelbrock and Navarro, etc. DD

I think you misunderstand me. In 1949 Edelbrock, Navarro and Ardun heads were available for the Flathead Ford. There were no Edelbrock, AFR or Dart heads available for any Olds, Caddy or Chevy V8 for that matter. I would like to see a comparison of what was available hot rodders back then. I would like to see just how good these various engines could be as they were utilized and raced in the 40's and 50's. Bolting today's technology onto a vintage block wouldn't be a fair comparison and wouldn't give a clear picture of the actual potential of the various engines as they stood back then.

[Ol' Ron]

I'm late getting here because after reading the firs few threads, I didn'yt think it was a viable project. The OHV's are just too good. I was supprised to read about Ken Kloth's engine. Yes I was with John when we talked to him and was surprised he didn have the engine dynoed. I was impressed at his knowledge and the performance of the car And a very nice guy to boot. The best power I ever got from an engine on a dyno was 175 @ 4800. I was surprised at the amount as I wasn't after HP but torque. The engine in question was 284ci and was replacing a 258ci engine that went substantially faster. But it had never been dynoed. This was in a 1936 Hydroplane. Wish I had it back, them little fellows got power. Have no idea why we build big engines.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I'm late getting here because after reading the firs few threads, I didn'yt think it was a viable project. The OHV's are just too good. I was supprised to read about Ken Kloth's engine. Yes I was with John when we talked to him and was surprised he didn have the engine dynoed. I was impressed at his knowledge and the performance of the car And a very nice guy to boot. The best power I ever got from an engine on a dyno was 175 @ 4800. I was surprised at the amount as I wasn't after HP but torque. The engine in question was 284ci and was replacing a 258ci engine that went substantially faster. But it had never been dynoed. This was in a 1936 Hydroplane. Wish I had it back, them little fellows got power. Have no idea why we build big engines.

Ron one of these days I'm going to build something different. I want to remove (as much as possible) the roadblocks to power in a Flatty. I doubt I could outsmart anybody when it comes to traditional building practices. I do think however think the intake tract could be rethought. On a Flatty the relationship between the location of the intake valve and the piston needs improvement in my humble opinion. The air/fuel charge enters the combustion chamber and wants to go straight up. That tells me the combustion dome needs to go up. In addition if there were some way to move the intake valve closer to the cylinder I think it would be a big help. I mean if think about it an angled valve opening over the cylinder would have to be a better flowing situation. The question is, can it be done?

[Ol' Ron]

Well, what you need is a flow bench. I made a home made one that worked quite well. I used it before I wrote my book and included the results. About 10 years later I had adigital flow bench given to me on loan, which proved my original flow system was very accurate in many cases. The down side of the flow benches is::: Uou get hooked on them looking for the HLY GRAIL of flow. Well after a year or so I couldn't find it. I did however discovered how I could increase the flow of a port in 15 minutes with a carbidr on a die grinder about 10%. But if you spend a few days in the same port, you're not going to get much more. Now if you could move the valves over the cylinder in a Hemispherical area with big valves and direct ports, you'd have something worth while. good luck.

[Bored&Stroked]

Okay, I know this is 'FordBarn', not 'FlatheadBarn', so excuse the following post

Too bad they don't allow us vintage boys to run blowers - we'd give them a run with the FlatCad (or at least have some fun!):

EngineBlowerDriveMockup4.jpg

EngineBlowerDriveMockup101.jpg

This is a 1940 Cadillac flathead engine, bored to 3.552 and stroked to 4.625 - about 366 cubes. Took us about 18 months to design/build the engine.

Actually, if it was a flathead only class, then I would run the Flathead Cadillac engine, due to the factory port arrangement (all up top). This shows the heavily ported block and the intake/top-end girdle.

IMG_0351 copy.jpg

We've proven it can take some abuse and the EMC challenge doesn't care about weight, so it could be fun. The downside is that it is very expensive and time consuming to build these one-off engines - as everything is 'custom' . . . only the 'block' is stock in the end.

But, we made 550 reliable HP on Gas and about 650 on Alky!

We can't wait to get back to Bonneville this year . . . has been a long wait!

B&S

[tubman]

I've always been impressed with what you guys have been able to do with these old "tank engines". I know the exhaust comes out the top of these engines (unlike Ford flatheads). It looks like the ports (from to back) are :

E-I-I-siamesed E-I-I-E.

Looks a lot more efficient than a Ford. Those ports are relatively HUGE. I see how you think a blower would probably work well on these.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by tubman

Looks a lot more efficient than a Ford. Those ports are relatively HUGE. I see how you think a blower would probably work well on these.

They didn't start out that way . . . I think I had 10 lbs of cast iron up my nose by the time I was through! I put about 120 hours into porting and relieving that block - as there are four different intake and four different exhaust designs . . . so your sphincter tends to pucker a lot more than on a flathead Ford!

It does have far better breathing than any flathead Ford - unless you spend an insane amount of money on welding and Frankensteining the block (like FlatFire).

Anyway, fun conversation in general. I do believe that a flathead has no chance to win this category if it has to go against OHV setups. Now, if we're allowed to put OHV conversions on our Flatheads, then things become a lot more equal. But, we have to remember the HP levels they are able to achieve with Chevy/GMC 6 cylinders with aftermarket heads - way more than we can achieve with even the FlatCad.

Also, think about the first Olds Rocket engines - plenty of bad-ass combinations and later heads that can make a lot of HP. Yep - trying to compete with ANY flathead would be pretty much impossible (dollar for dollar, HP for HP).

[saltracer]

from the HAMB, a picture of the Jimmy Stevens built flathead motor that went over 300 mph. Seems to be dry deck, or completely filled, all cylinders seemed to be sleeved. ports rerouted out the top.

[V8COOPMAN]

Don't ya just love grass-roots ingenuity? DD

[tubman]

After seeing these last two examples, it would seem to me that running the exhaust out the top of the block would be a necessity for anyone wanting to make max HP from a flathead Ford. Does anyone know what they do with the conventional exhaust ports? Do they just run them as is, or are they plugged? Running them would give the exhaust a lot of places to go, but might mess up the flow characteristics.

BTW, the "spellchecker" on this site flags "flathead" as a potential misspelling whenever I post; has anyone else noticed this? Seems a little odd to me.

[saltracer]

spell it Flathead (capitol F)