A Flathead in Engine Masters?

[Henry Floored]

Well guys you may have seen the new classes for the 2015 Engine Masters competition. If you haven't seem them and are interested there is a "vintage" v8 class open to any 1954 or older American v8 except for the Chrysler hemi. This would probably attract mostly Olds and Caddy engines with a possible Lincoln or two. What if? What if a bunch of Flathead Ford enthusiasts built an all out engine just because? Certainly a side valver couldn't compete right? But the question begs just how well could one do? Flathead Fords were certainly in the thick of things longer than they should have back in those days. Wouldn't it be fun to raise eyebrows if not competing for the outright win? Isn't the Flathead V8 at the heart of our passion? It is for me.

Now before you poo poo the idea, remember that these contests are scored by average torque and horsepower divided by cubic inches as tested on a dyno. How far up could this theoretical engine reach? Where would one start. I'd like to hear from you guys what you think of this. Have some of you ever built a full on Flathead either recently or back in the day? For the sake of discusion and the sheer fun of it lets build the ultimate naturally aspirated Flathead Ford at least on this thread.

I'll go first. My fantasy engine would be just under 300". The heads would be Navarro Hi-domes (complying with the commercially available rule) with the corresponding pistons. The heat riser would be filled and shaped to form a back port wall for them. Exhaust ports would be in standard location but cleaned up and the dog leg removed from the end ports. The induction system is where I think would be a departure. I have always looked at those intake ports and thought they should be lowered. I would love to machine those intake ports partially away and thereby lowering their entrance angle. I have seen this done and in addition an EFI injector was placed under each port aimed at the back of the intake valve. The combination of this with a fixed guide, "ramped" intake pocket and the hi dome heads I think removes a huge percentage of the impedence to the breathing potential of this engine. Now the rest of the engine would be carefully done especially in the camshaft and crankcase areas.

Lets hear your thoughts and have some fun!

[Henry Floored]

Oops here's the link: http://bangshift.com/general-news/en...e-new-classes/

[Lazy Jake]

Your thread brings to mind the flat motor that Dick Landy built that Hot Rod Magazine did a feature article (cover) on a few years back. 800 HP I believe. After I read that I gave up all hope of ever building a bad ass flathead.

[Ralph Moore]

Originally Posted by Lazy Jake

Your thread brings to mind the flat motor that Dick Landy built that Hot Rod Magazine did a feature article (cover) on a few years back. 800 HP I believe. After I read that I gave up all hope of ever building a bad ass flathead.

Is that the one where the intake and exhaust were reversed?
And he was running one carb per cylinder?

[Henry Floored]

The Flatfire engine built by Dick Landy was in fact a reverse port with both the intake and exhaust coming up out of the top. That engine had a centrifugal supercharger with EFI. I don't think relocated exhaust ports would be necessary on a naturally aspirated engine. The question remains, is 1hp per cubic inch possible with an NA Flathead Ford?

[Kahuna]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Yes, it is and more

[KiWinUS]

only with a KiWi-L100 cam ........

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

only with a KiWi-L100 cam ........

Exactly what I was thinking Tony!

[Blownflatheaddeuce]

Originally Posted by kiwinus

only with a kiwi-l100 cam ........

Gold !

[Henry Floored]

Well I must admit I was hoping for some great stories of wild Flatheads some of you may have built or driven over the years. Maybe a little bump of this thread might flush some of you out. Soooo bump!

[Kahuna]

Henry
I'm sure there are/were flathead engines capable of more than 1Hp/CI. I think Pete in Washington State has built a few.
The only engine I am personally familiar with was the Ken Kloth XFPro record holding Ford flathead.
It displaced 267 cubic inches and dynoed at 280 HP @ around 5700 rpm. It had 109% volumetric efficiency. The engine was always shifted at 6200 rpm. It was naturally aspirated.
Again, I'm sure there were/are more.
His record still stands after 26 years

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Henry
I'm sure there are/were flathead engines capable of more than 1Hp/CI. I think Pete in Washington State has built a few.
The only engine I am personally familiar with was the Ken Kloth XFPro record holding Ford flathead.
It displaced 267 cubic inches and dynoed at 280 HP @ around 5700 rpm. It had 109% volumetric efficiency. The engine was always shifted at 6200 rpm. It was naturally aspirated.
Again, I'm sure there were/are more.
His record still stands after 26 years

Thanks Kahuna, I would absolutely love to speak with Mr. Kloth and even learn some of his secrets. Two hundred eighty hp out of 267" in a side valve engine is absolutely incredible. I would be fascinated to learn more.

[JWL]

I have met and talked to Kenny K. several times at Bonneville. Hi told us his engine had never been on the dyno and he thought it made around 220 to 240 HP. The one occasion, of which I am aware, the Merc was on a drag strip the power calculation is about 225.

A Flathead engine would not be a viable competitor against similar sized OHV vintage engines.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by JWL

I have met and talked to Kenny K. several times at Bonneville. Hi told us his engine had never been on the dyno and he thought it made around 220 to 240 HP. The one occasion, of which I am aware, the Merc was on a drag strip the power calculation is about 225.

A Flathead engine would not be a viable competitor against similar sized OHV vintage engines.

Hi JWL and thanks. I think if someone dare try a Flathead for the EMC competition it would be more of an individual showcase of skill and ingenuity. It would be very difficult to usurp the inherent advantages OHV's hold in volumetric efficiency. My interest would be how close could one get? This is an average hp,tq/ cu. in. formula. A smaller engine that has better VE will beat a larger engine with lower VE. It would be great to hear from Mr. Kloth, perhaps you could make him aware of this thread that he might feel like commenting. I have only seen a couple pics of his record setting engine and it looks very conventional from the outside. Would love to learn more.

P.S. I recently purchased a copy of your book and thoroughly enjoyed it!

[Kahuna]

It is unfortunate that some people profess to know things and comment without all the information.
I am very sure that Ken would not say that his engine was never on a dyno, because it was and was done in Utah.
Next, and VERY important is the drag strip test:
Car- 4350+ lbs with Ken in car (car gearing NOT optimized for drag racing). 3 runs, as I recall.
No ET's were recorded, but speed was 93 mph. Calculate that, then tell me your theory on HP.

Lastly, folks should keep in mind that many racers keep a lot of what they do to accomplish a Bonneville record very close to the vest. That's why records stand. Ken would never lie. He just won't give anyone all the iformation they might desire.

Henry, a lot of what went into Ken's engine has been published in some magazine's:
Displacement
cam and lifters, etc.
Alot has NOT been published, and yes, the engine looks very conventional

I've known Ken for almost 30 years. He's a very talented machinist and thinker. I'm proud to call him my friend.
Jim

[JWL]

I think O'Ron was present on one occasion that KK said his engine was not dyno checked. In fact, I seem to remember it was Ron who asked him about that. He also said his drag strip speed was 89.

I can agree KK is a very open, friendly, approachable, guy who provides consulting to Bonneville hopefuls and would not knowingly provide false info. Likewise, I do not provide false info. Period.

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Henry
I'm sure there are/were flathead engines capable of more than 1Hp/CI. I think Pete in Washington State has built a few.
The only engine I am personally familiar with was the Ken Kloth XFPro record holding Ford flathead.
It displaced 267 cubic inches and dynoed at 280 HP @ around 5700 rpm. It had 109% volumetric efficiency. The engine was always shifted at 6200 rpm. It was naturally aspirated.
Again, I'm sure there were/are more.
His record still stands after 26 years

Sorry, but I'm not buying 109% VE on natural aspiration. Something in this story needs a tune-up.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

It is unfortunate that some people profess to know things and comment without all the information.
I am very sure that Ken would not say that his engine was never on a dyno, because it was and was done in Utah.
Next, and VERY important is the drag strip test:
Car- 4350+ lbs with Ken in car (car gearing NOT optimized for drag racing). 3 runs, as I recall.
No ET's were recorded, but speed was 93 mph. Calculate that, then tell me your theory on HP.

Lastly, folks should keep in mind that many racers keep a lot of what they do to accomplish a Bonneville record very close to the vest. That's why records stand. Ken would never lie. He just won't give anyone all the iformation they might desire.

Henry, a lot of what went into Ken's engine has been published in some magazine's:
Displacement
cam and lifters, etc.
Alot has NOT been published, and yes, the engine looks very conventional

I've known Ken for almost 30 years. He's a very talented machinist and thinker. I'm proud to call him my friend.
Jim

The Tex Smith flathead book by Ron C. has a cool write up about Ken. I think the article stated he uses some crazy oversized cam with mushroom tappets. The cam journals were oversized and required boring the cam journals to accommodate the larger cam.

Certainly some serious thought, tinkering, plotting and planning has got Ken T. engines to where they are today. Hats off to the man regardless of the HP or ET of his engine.

[scooder]

Kloths was a roller lifter cam, not mushroom, but all else is good.
Low compression, high breathing.
Martin.

[Henry Floored]

I remember reading that Kloth designed the combustion chambers to breathe which reduced static compression. Years ago NASCAR ran 9:1 engines and made up for that by designing camshafts which would effectively increase compression dynamically. There was even a photo of an experimental cyl head which had a low dome but had a passage above the valves to direct the charge over the normal transfer area and down into the cyl. The article stated that he found this did not work. It does however illustrate the thought process.

On some high end side valve engines like the Lycoming V8 and the Packard V12 the valves were tilted dramatically towards the cylinder in order to enhance breathing. The engineers that designed those two engines must have recognized that biggest restriction in an L-head is the hard turn that charge mixture must take as it passes the valve seat.

I am a mediocre engine builder but I think even I can coax 150hp out of a Flatty Ford. The best of the best can build around the 225-250hp. That's not a huge difference. This tells me that the greatest induction systems, ports, camshaft designs and overall building practices are limited by a distinct restriction. It's obvious then that is where new or even old thought should be focused. Barney Navarro was a big believer in high dome pistons. Hi domes as opposed to pop ups go way up into a high chamber but taper down to be flush with the top of the cylinder around the edges. That big high dome is a far less restricted area in which the "charge" can flow into.

There was another article which stated that Karl Orr ran some great times on the salt flats with a Flathead with some unusually modified stock heads. Those heads had the domes completely machined out. Then some steel domes that matched the curvature of the stock pistons were brazed in place much higher up in the head. Then the engine was stroked and keeping the stock pistons they were popped up into those raised domes. This was all done to increase breathing while still maintaining good compression ratios.