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Old 10-11-2013, 05:36 PM   #1
newshirt
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Default Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

I’m considering an engine rebuild and would like to understand the advantages of a new Burlington crank over a reconditioned one with counterweights added. Cost is not a consideration.

I understand the cranks will be similar and I might not feel a difference while driving the car. But beyond that, there must be some clear advantages of a new crankshaft. For instance, I’m concerned that a reconditioned crank might go out of spec sooner than a new Burlington. E.g. twist, crack, bend, wear, etc. After all, it’s already 85 years old and probably needed reconditioning for a reason. So is longevity an advantage? Or not? Anything else?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

A very respectable engine builder told me he won't use a Burlington crank because of the material it's made out of. One of his buddies drilled the crank and sent the shavings to get Annalyzed. Apparently it's not much better than cold rolled steel. This all information that i was told, I never saw any evidence. But I do know the builder who told me this, had a crank sent to him from Burlington for him to put in a motor for free for him try it out and he won't put it in a motor. It's still sittin on his shop floor. An original A crank that's not cracked and hasn't been turned down to much will work fine. If you get t counterweighted, get it done by someone who knows what they're doing. The counterweights shouldn't be welded all the way around on the crank. All that heat then gets transferred into the journal making it prone to crack. In my opinion the best way to do it is to drill and tap the crank, then drill the counterweights, and run bolt threw them and bolt them down. Then you can put a little tack weld on the ends of the weights just for re-assurance. I can't remember which bolt it is or where you can get it, I use to have it written down but I've lost the paper. But the bolts were good up to 5,000 rpm by themselves, and them the tack welds are there just incase. I got the info from Ron Kelly, because this is the way he does his cranks.

A lot of people don't realize the scat cranks also make a brand new crank for the model a. I know two people that have used them, and they seem to be happy with them. I know T people put scat cranks in all the time in the T motors.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:03 PM   #3
Chris in CT
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

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A very respectable engine builderMay we know who this respectable engine builder is? told me he won't use a Burlington crank because of the material it's made out of. One of his buddies Is the buddy also respectable? drilled the crank and sent the shavings to get Annalyzed Where? By what metallurgical lab? Apparently apparently? what does that mean? it's not much better than cold rolled steel.So when exactly is 4340 steel not much better than cold-rolled? This all information that i was told, I never saw any evidence. But you go to the trouble of repeating this nonsense on a public forum, even though you admit you have no evidence. But I do know the builder who told me this, had a crank sent to him from Burlington for him to put in a motor for free for him try it out and he won't put it in a motor. It's still sittin on his shop floor. In that case, he could have the decency and integrity to return it to the source that originally sent it to him. An original A crank that's not cracked and hasn't been turned down to much will work fine. If you get t counterweighted, get it done by someone who knows what they're doing. The counterweights shouldn't be welded all the way around on the crank. All that heat then gets transferred into the journal making it prone to crack. In my opinion the best way to do it is to drill and tap the crank, then drill the counterweights, and run bolt threw them and bolt them down. Then you can put a little tack weld on the ends of the weights just for re-assurance. I can't remember which bolt it is or where you can get it, I use to have it written down but I've lost the paper. But the bolts were good up to 5,000 rpm by themselves, and them the tack welds are there just incase. I got the info from Ron Kelly, because this is the way he does his cranks.

A lot of people don't realize the scat cranks also make a brand new crank for the model a. I know two people that have used them, and they seem to be happy with them. I know T people put scat cranks in all the time in the T motors.
Comments in red are mine. The comments in black are clearly un substantiated.

Chris Robinson, Burlington Crankshaft
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

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Originally Posted by BlueSunoco View Post
I've never talked to anyone who has used the Burlington crankshaft, but I WAS told they are Chinese- made. You were told correctly. Do you drive a Ford, Toyota, Audi, Mercedes Benz or equipment with a Cummins diesel? News Flash! Your crank was made in China.

I would think that they probably don't have the quality control thing down too good as of yet, to take a chance on one for what they cost.
What do you know? You think, but based on what information?

Personally I'd stick with the originals for now. Maybe the off shore ones will get better over time. Maybe you will be more careful with your unsubstantiated opinions over time.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:15 PM   #5
Bill Edstrom
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

I have a motor that I installed a Burlington crank in, I now have 5,000 miles on it. A couples of weeks I drove 1200 miles and the car just purred along at 50 to 55 miles per hour. No leakage from the rear main. The engine has a 5.5 head,oversize intake vales, new Bil Stipe touring cam and I have Mitchel overdrive. So to date I am very please with the crankshaft. If you use a reground crank be sure the grinder knows what's he is doing because it is so easy for crank journals to be ground off center.

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Old 10-11-2013, 07:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

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Sounds like Chris in CT is a little touchy. Why?
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

All metal parts will eventually break from accumulated stress/flex cycles. If you've ever seen a rear flange snapped off an A crank that is the result of accumulated stress/flex cycles. I'll take a new crank over a welded and reground 85 year old one with millions of accumulated stress cycles in the metal grain interfaces any day.

The Burlington cranks I have used (3) were all in spec when I checked them on a surface plate between V blocks for bend, journal dimension, evenness of throw, and to see if the rod journals were 180 apart as they should be. I have yet to see a reworked A crank that 'measured up' as well.

If you run poured babbitt a reground crank requires thicker babbitt to make up the difference. In babbitt bearings, thicker is NOT better, it is worse. If you run inserts the Burlington crank presents a superior nitrided surface to the bearings, something a regrind will not unless you nitride it after grinding, bringing the total cost up to a new crank.

I have also had one Scat crank cross my bench. There was no oil slinger and I had to make up a thrust with a rear seal for it.
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

I put one in my car 3000 miles ago and it seems fine to me. I have no problems with it. I am guessing that if the crank was bad, his company would not last that long in this industry. Like I said, so far it is working like a charm.

Mike
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:36 PM   #9
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris in CT View Post
Comments in red are mine. The comments in black are clearly un substantiated.

Chris Robinson, Burlington Crankshaft
I said all that, wondering if someone would clarify those things or not. That's what I had heard. It was possible somebody else had heard this as well, they just didnt state what they had heard. This gives you and anybody else the opportunity to clarify or discredit this. As I'm sure I'm not the first person to hear this.
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

I am running a Burlington in my '29 Tudor. My engine guy had no problem with it, and it has many trouble free miles on it. It's a very smooth running engine. Results may vary.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

It is truly sad that "he said/she said" rumors always enter into these things. I know Chris personally and his integrity, ...and I have installed 7 or 8 in customers engines without complaints. Matter of fact, I have not heard of a single failure. Yes I know I am always guilty of defending certain vendors but in this case it begs the question of why someone would spread false propaganda and hearsay. Truly sad for Chris, for prospective buyers, and the hobby in general!!!

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I think Mike is correct in his assessment of old cranks.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:30 PM   #12
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

I've installed Burlington cranks in 5 engines. They all run smoothly and the customers are very happy with them. The only failure I heard of with a Burlington was one that was drilled for pressure, which Burlington advises against. It cracked along the drill bore, but bear in mind, that owner drove his car very hard for 15000 miles before it broke. He has also broken 4 drilled and counterweighted Model A cranks in about the same time frame doing the same thing. He is now torturing a Scat. I'll let you know when it breaks.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

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Originally Posted by wrndln View Post
Sounds like Chris in CT is a little touchy. Why?
Rusty Nelson
Hey Rusty,
Well, the 'WHY' ...is pretty self evident !
It's hard enough for a person/company to produce product and survive in the current anti business milieu now existing in this country ! Even worse is bad/unsubstantiated pr/bs , that is directed at this particular company which produces a product that specifically benefits US...the model A owners. Words framed wrong and/or from ignorance (not knowing) can do great harm to such company ! The fact that this man comes onto this forum , in a seemingly defensive manner, to reject heresy about his excellent product (read actual product user comments).....how would you respond
A man can do good things all of his lifetime and never get noticed, but when someone finds one thing done wrong (or claimed done wrong) , by the same man, and that one thing is what is remembered ! Same with business.
BTW...only reason I do not own one of these cranks...is pricey !!

Last edited by hardtimes; 10-11-2013 at 09:32 PM. Reason: ........
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

Hi Ray
Have used many different cranks in A And B Engines both on the street and competition here s my thoughts
Stock A Crank hard to find with enough metal and pass sonic test

Stock B/C better can be re machined for A

Burlington good just need nitriding as they score low on the rockwell test and balance not as good as it could be I rebalance and they are finished to a odd size ?

Scat I have 2 both have different spacing on the pin centres the rods can be 0.050 from the bore centre and you must convert the rear oil seal
Large radius need to re radius rods ect

Moldex the BEST A crank BEST BEST

just my thoughts
Colin
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:30 PM   #15
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

UNSUBSTANTIATED, DETRIMENTAL, "FACTS" & "B.S." & "HERESAY", can destroy a busines's REPUTATION quickly through the INTERNET!! Everyone please be careful of what you POST!! Bill W.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:56 PM   #16
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

"Moldex the BEST A crank BEST BEST"

One, of the best. There are several others of the same quality but none of these are well known among the "A" group because of cost.
The big advantage of these is, you can have any type of seals, drilled or not, maximum counterweight, snout to fit any damper/pulley and ANY STROKE.
Also, if you want to race, they will make the crank from titanium.
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

If you run poured babbitt a reground crank requires thicker babbitt to make up the difference. In babbitt bearings, thicker is NOT better, it is worse. "END QUOTE"

Mike, that is just not true!!

Herm.
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

I used a couple of Burlington cranks for members in our club. We do a lot of driving, so far they have been trouble free. Being a old machinist that has used a lot of 4140 and some 4340 which is stronger than 4140 you will have a hard time finding a better material. We used 4140 for piston rods in cylinders up to 24" bore. It is not even close to 1040 if that is what he was talking about. Cold rolled steel does not mean much. You need the number.

Last edited by George Miller; 10-12-2013 at 08:57 AM. Reason: wrong number
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

I agree! Lets keep it factual!
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Old 10-12-2013, 08:58 AM   #20
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

We at J and M have used the Burlington cranks, when a customer wanted a counterweighted crank we would say "Burlington".
Clearly I'm not excited to see bolt on counterweights it just doesnt make sense where there's a new crank available why bother with the machine work ?

I believe we have used at least 10-12 cranks and am placing an order for two more.

To answer the original poster if I had a choice faced with old stock crank with bolt on weights versus new crank designed with weights,I also would choose the new one,.

Due to the fact that; depends on who grinds crankshaft,do radius exist, was the crank ground straight,did they drill the bolt on weights properly,did they even balance it and did the do the work properly?

Faced with hokey machine shops out there and we have seen plenty of failures from others I would choose "new out of the box".
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Old 10-12-2013, 11:52 AM   #21
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

We installed a Burlington crank in the sedan engine. This was done after Schwalms examined the crank and did some tests on it. This crank has been highly abused running on several long distance tours and at times traveling at speeds in excess of 70 miles per hour. That engine has about 20,000 trouble free miles as of now. It has served us so well we have added Burlington cranks to three more engines.

As to the repair of the old cranks that works but Taylor engines in California showed us a crank that was all done up with counter weights etc. and the rear collar cracked and was separating from the crank.

I guess it is each to his own when it comes to this.
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Old 10-12-2013, 12:15 PM   #22
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

I choose a reground crank on my Antique Engineering engine. I now have 5,000 mile on it and have had no problems. Others in our club have the Burlington. We really can't say there is much difference at this point. All the Antique Engineering engines run great.
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Old 10-12-2013, 12:35 PM   #23
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Default Re: Burlington vs Reconditioned Crank

a burlington crank is an improvement but not necessary. more adviseable to use on touring style motors . to state that they are junk or spread heresay is just wrong
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