points firing

[benji]

i am not getting spark out of distributor on 59a engine.
i want to clean and file distributor points . It appears the distributor must be removed to do this due to accessability on front of engine. There is very little space due to radiator. Can the distributor be removed without removing radiator? If bolts are removed will it slide out? Please help.

[cas3]

Yes, the only way to work on the crab style dizzy is to remove it. only 2 bolts, remove the cap and there will be room to get it out. On reinstalling, the drive tang is offset so it only fits one way, no timing necessary, make sure it sits flat and flush before you tighten up the bolts

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by cas3

Yes, the only way to work on the crab style dizzy is to remove it. only 2 bolts, remove the cap and there will be room to get it out. On reinstalling, the drive tang is offset so it only fits one way, no timing necessary, make sure it sits flat and flush before you tighten up the bolts

Good advice from "cas3" above. You MUST move distributor FORWARD 1/4" or so to dis-engage the drive tang. Then you can slide it out the side.

Coop/AMERICAN

.

[drolston]

Originally Posted by benji

i am not getting spark out of distributor on 59a engine.
i want to clean and file distributor points . It appears the distributor must be removed to do this due to accessability on front of engine. There is very little space due to radiator. Can the distributor be removed without removing radiator? If bolts are removed will it slide out? Please help.

Have you done trouble-shooting to determine that the points are for sure the problem? Like put a voltmeter on the distributor side of the coil and turn the engine to see if that voltage drops from battery voltage to near zero as the points close. If you are seeing that voltage drop, the problem may be the coil instead of the points.

If, when the points are open, the voltage on the distributor side of the coil is lower than the battery side of the coil, you have a leaky condenser. Disconnect the condenser from the distributor terminal and see if you then get spark when cranking. If so, replace the condenser.

[Seth Swoboda]

If it is in fact the distributor, send the distributor to Michael Driskell at Third Gen Automotive for a professional tune up.

[corvette8n]

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Send it to either Michael or CharlieNY for a rebuild, usually the bushing is worn so much it won’t run right even with new points.

[drolston]

With great respect to our excellent distributor rebuilders, I am going to encourage our junior member Benji to try figure this out on his own first. Because when something goes wrong on the road (it probably will at some point) he knows enough about the ignition system to do the farmer fix needed to get home.

[benji]

After unclipping the side clip wires, the side caps are stuck. How are these removed ?

[Tim Ayers]

Do you have a crab-type or a football helmet type of distributor. Crab would have two bolts holding it on, football type three?

When you say side wires, it is making me think you have a football style distributor.

[Bored&Stroked]

Something very important to know: The end of the cam has a SLOT in it that the tang on the distributor slides into. The slot/tang are offset from the centerline only 1/16 of an inch.

The reason it is offset is so that the distributor drive is always mounted in the same way - you can take the distributor on/off and not influence the timing. BUT, it is very easy to have the distributor rotated 180 degrees OFF from where it should be - then you think it is close to fitting (so you force it on) and you try to somehow get the bolts back in their holes. Make sure the orientation is correct - or you'll ruin the distributor and the engine will not run.

You might even succeed in wrenching the bolts in . . . which will crack the distributor housing when you tighten them - or when you turn the engine over.

Lastly, there is a gasket that goes underneath the distributor - you'll need a new one. It is important that you clean the timing cover and back of the distributor well. I'd use a little thin gasket sealer on the gasket (like Gasgacinch - from Edelbrock or Jegs) - but don't clog the vacuum transfer hole. You need the gasket to seal the vacuum port, but not obstruct it.

If you're not familiar with these distributors (which it sounds like), you can learn a bit in this process (if you understand distributors in general). If you want to really get it setup properly, send it to either of the two guys mentioned earlier - they know what they're doing and have the necessary distributor machine to really set it up correctly.

Best of luck!

[benji]

I have the football helment type that has dome caps on each side held on by wire clips. After removing the clips, the dome caps are stuck. Do these caps screw off or do you pry them off with screwdriver or tap them loose? I am being careful since I do not know.











i

[Tim Ayers]

Just wiggle them a bit. Should come off afterward.

Originally Posted by benji

I have the football helment type that has dome caps on each side held on by wire clips. After removing the clips, the dome caps are stuck. Do these caps screw off or do you pry them off with screwdriver or tap them loose? I am being careful since I do not know.











i

[rotorwrench]

A person should pull the distributor off periodically just to inspect all the parts in there, The vacuum brake leather pad, the advance/retard flyweights, the rotor bushing, and of course the points & plastic parts all need to be maintained in good working order.

[benji]

I have ordered most parts from MAX in the past, now they have very little as compared. Where to buy gasket? Max or Bob Drake or NAPA do not have gasket. Where can I find?

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by benji

I have ordered most parts from MAX in the past, now they have very little as compared. Where to buy gasket? Max or Bob Drake or NAPA do not have gasket. Where can I find?

Michael at Third Gen Automotive 844-327-5988 cst. Monday thru Thursday


The caps, IF you look, have a little square tang on them for alignment purposes so make sure you line them up when re installing, I cannot stress enough and it has been pointed out here a few times, MAKE DOUBLE sure you align the distributor offset key to the cam correctly. This is made easier IF you get a couple of 5/16-18 x 1" or so NC Bolts and cut the heads off of them. Screw them in the block BEFORE you attempt to put the distributor back on. THEN slide the distributor onto the studs you thread in, then you can use your thumbs on each side of the distributor to rotate the rotor and line the keyway up with the end of the cam shaft. put some light pressure against the distributor and rotate the rotor and you will feel it click in!!! ONCE you feel it click in, you can try and move the rotor and it should NOT turn!!! THEN you remove one stud at a time and replace with the correct bolt.
AS a third check, once I have it installed and before I re-intall the caps, I put the car in first and have someone rock the car back and forth and watch the rotor (or put your finger in there and feel), you should see (or feel) it move back and forth, then I know 100% its on and lined up correctly BEFORE I try and fire it up!!!! Then re-install the caps!!!! BELIEVE me you don't what to try and start the car and hear a loud "crack"!!!!

[rockfla]

These are the alignment studs I made just for this job!!!! I have since knurled the ends to make it easier to thread in and out.

[Lawson Cox]

Originally Posted by rockfla

These are the alignment studs I made just for this job!!!! I have since knurled the ends to make it easier to thread in and out.

Better still is to just install studs into block and leave it there and tighten it up with a nut. My 2¢. Still a PITA no matter how you do it.

[deuce_roadster]

If the vehicle you are trouble shooting has an ammeter instead of a voltmeter, when the engine is being turned over the needle will wiggle. If the needle doesn't move, then oxidation on the points is probably the problem. You can fix that without filing the points by using some strips of doubled over 1000 grit wet/dry paper.
Once you get one side cap off with the inner cap attached of the "helmet" type (32-41) distributor an 8" piece of wooden dowel will allow you to tap the other side off. They fit tight to keep moisture out. Always use new gaskets in all those places.

[benji]

[IMG][/IMG]

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Something very important to know: The end of the cam has a SLOT in it that the tang on the distributor slides into. The slot/tang are offset from the centerline only 1/16 of an inch.

The reason it is offset is so that the distributor drive is always mounted in the same way - you can take the distributor on/off and not influence the timing. BUT, it is very easy to have the distributor rotated 180 degrees OFF from where it should be - then you think it is close to fitting (so you force it on) and you try to somehow get the bolts back in their holes. Make sure the orientation is correct - or you'll ruin the distributor and the engine will not run.

The difference in SLOT ALIGNMENT that Dale speaks of can be seen below. It helps to re-install if you reference the direction the rotor is pointing when distributor is removed. Coop/AMERICAN


TOP Picture Shows PROPER Alignment!





BOTTOM Pic Shows 180º Out of Alignment!

[benji]

IMG_0174.jpg

IMG_0173 (1).jpg

[benji]

This is what I have and the top looks like nothing I have found pictures of. Can anyone help identify this set up. The engine is a 59ab in a 1936 Ford. It appears the distributor bottom from the old 1936 engine was used and the dome top was replaced with this flat plate that the coil wire goes into. Can you help identify what configuration I have so I can order parts and tune if I need to in the future?

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by benji

This is what I have and the top looks like nothing I have found pictures of. Can anyone help identify this set up. The engine is a 59ab in a 1936 Ford. It appears the distributor bottom from the old 1936 engine was used and the dome top was replaced with this flat plate that the coil wire goes into. Can you help identify what configuration I have so I can order parts and tune if I need to in the future?

What you have IS a conversion plate mounted to the top of the distributor for use with a more modern coil as you have mounted on the top of the head. The process for removing your distributor, having it rebuilt and set up on a distributor machine (if that is what you choose to do) is still the same, AS well as checking your distributor and coil as Drolston (post #4) has suggested in an earlier post....the only difference being the coil is NOW on the top of your left head!!!! Everything else is the same as stock it appears!!!


Where it me, I'd find a stock coil an send it down here to Skip Haney in Florida and have him bullet proof it for you (about $120) and ditch that conversion plate and go back original, mounted on top of the distributor again!!!


In the mean time you can still chase your issue and decide which manner is best to proceed.


Let us know how you are making out!!1

[FlatheadTed]

As a tempory fix tutorial for benji ,The black cover conversion plate at the top can be removed with the three screws ,then knocjk out the side ternials with a blunt screw driver or the dowl on the top edge ,uindo the pipe coduet of the manifold then they should come of ,remove the three bolts on the distriubtor and the small vac tube and remove it ,with out changing any adjustments on the points sand them with some 60 or 35 grit paper . cut a piece and fold it1,1/2 x 1' back to back ,and sand ,clean the condensor mountings , coil wires etc , ,mount up the coil and a ground to the D body X to coil rotate the distrubtor by hand ,should fire a 8 mm spark of the HT lead to the D body ground ,remount on the car ,

[JayChicago]

He mentioned he wants to clean the points, so we are telling him how to tackle the distributor. But to someone new to flatheads it's a distributor unlike anything ever seen before. And as yet there is no indication that the problem is in the distributor.

Here is what was said about the problem: "i am not getting spark out of distributor on 59a engine." That could be many, many things.

I would start by verifying there is voltage coming to the coil & distributor.

[benji]

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I have tested and I have power to coil, condenser and coil wire to dist. Now that I know more about what I will be doing, I will remove dist and follow recommendations. The last time I had this problem, I paid way too much to have someone else remove the corrosion and said then that would try it myself the next time, and like it was said , you will never learn if you do'nt try. Thanks for all the help.

[cas3]

The ford duel point system is a very good design. It works best when its set up properly on a distributor machine, but there are " home remedy's" also if you search. Originally, you wanted to clean the points to try and get some spark. I agree with this if you have owned the car for while, and know when the last time the dizzy ( sorry Lawson ) was serviced, and then would know for a fact that the points may only have some scuzz on them from winter storage etc. You will know once you look at them, are they burnt badly, or just not making contact. points are hard, trying to reshape burnt points with a file makes no sense to me, and if you do not know the history of the car, sending the whole unit off to one of our re builders makes the most sense to me. My cars with a Bubba dizzy and skips coil start on one revolution winter or summer

[rotorwrench]

Don't be surprised if it is just a bad condenser. Many of these are bad right out of the box. I noticed from the photos that it looks to be a relatively small one like the 8BA used. When troubleshooting, I always do the easiest things first.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Don't be surprised if it is just a bad condenser. Many of these are bad right out of the box. I noticed from the photos that it looks to be a relatively small one like the 8BA used. When troubleshooting, I always do the easiest things first.

bingo bingo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL of the condensors on the conversion plates are bad ( never seen a good one ) they must buy them all at a walmart sale !!!!!!! Replace with a RR175 napa unit before you get too far along ...........

[benji]

I have removed the vacuum line , top plate, and side caps but now have difficulty removing the 3 bolts that attach dist. to engine. The top bolt came off easily, but the 2 remaining are very difficult to get to. Is it necessary to remove the sheet metal panel below the radiator and access bolts from below or is it possible to get these bolts out from above with a wrench? The 1/2 in open end and socket wrenches I have do not seem to work. Is there an offset type wrench or some other type that will work?

[drolston]

No offset wrench or special tool needed. Open end and box end wrench will be very awkward. A 3/8 drive socket with a suitable extension should do the job.

[benji]

I have cleaned the distributor and ready to reinstall. I have read somewhere to spray inside with a moisture displacment like wd40 or something. Is this a good idea or will it be harmful?

[marko39]

Not necessary just make sure your cap is tight.

[benji]

thanks, worked good

[Graeme / New Zealand]

Originally Posted by cas3

The ford duel point system is a very good design. It works best when its set up properly on a distributor machine, but there are " home remedy's" also if you search. Originally, you wanted to clean the points to try and get some spark. I agree with this if you have owned the car for while, and know when the last time the dizzy ( sorry Lawson ) was serviced, and then would know for a fact that the points may only have some scuzz on them from winter storage etc. You will know once you look at them, are they burnt badly, or just not making contact. points are hard, trying to reshape burnt points with a file makes no sense to me, and if you do not know the history of the car, sending the whole unit off to one of our re builders makes the most sense to me. My cars with a Bubba dizzy and skips coil start on one revolution winter or summer

I agree with Cas3. If an engine has been lying around unused for a while the "scuzz" is the first thing to check. When I had my 48 wired up we couldn't get it to spark. The first thing the auto sparky did was pull the cap and look at the points which had developed a film on them from sitting so long. A bit of emery cloth solved it. a Skips coil was probably the best investment for my ignition system, well worth the hastle of getting this thing down to New Zealand.

GB

[benji]

I have done everything suggested but still no spark to plugs. I do have spark going into top of distributor . The only thing I haven't done is disassemble the side caps to clean contacts inside. I found them tight and will not budge. I am afraid I will damage if using a screwdriver or do they twist off? How do these come apart ?

[marko39]

you can get them off by removing the coil or adapter and tapping them from the inside with a wood dowel. when off you can check continunty of all plug wires from the inside of cap.

[benji]

Bubba, I have tried everything and still no spark out of distributor. If I send it to you for repair, 1. do I send side caps? 2. send condenser and coil? it has a tube type coil. 3. someone recommended going back to original coil set up, is this necessary or can the adapter plate , external coil give me satisfactory performance? 4.Turnaround time? 5.Will the points and timing be set by you so I can reinstall without adjustment? 6. price? 7. your shipping address?

[TerryS]

Thanks for posting this benji, I'm in the same predicament. Thanks also to all those who have been sending instructions. When the heat breaks up here in NH, maybe Wednesday. I'm going to try the same procedures with my 34.

[40Pickup]

Be sure, you have contact between conversion plates spring pin to the contact place on breaker points.
Spring pin may be bent, has happened to me!

/Jorgen

[slowforty]

I was chasing a no power to the Spark Plugs found out it was a bad resistor, Drove me nuts as the issue was intermittent.