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Old 06-20-2016, 02:46 PM   #1
GOSFAST
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Default Bronze Guides

Due to the large response recently to the bronze-lined guides I decided two weeks ago to fabricate a quick fixture to allow us to do all 16 with one setup. We had been doing them one at a time. I should be able do these now on our PH-2000 head machine?

Just wrapped it up, looking good. Hopefully this will allow a decent drop in the cost for a set. We'll soon find out, I don't know yet!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I chose to post about this issue rather address it one-on-one behind the scenes. Easier for me on this end. On a side note, those aren't Flathead rods in the photo (obviously), my son took the shot for me.
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File Type: jpg Flathead Valve Guide Fixture A.JPG (87.3 KB, 145 views)
File Type: jpg Flathead Valve Guide Fixture B.JPG (87.6 KB, 148 views)
File Type: jpg Flathead Valve Guide Fixture C.JPG (82.7 KB, 141 views)
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Old 06-20-2016, 04:27 PM   #2
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Do you put seals on the inlet ones after you fit the bronze liners?
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Old 06-20-2016, 08:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrie View Post
Do you put seals on the inlet ones after you fit the bronze liners?
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Hi Lawrie, when we do these liners I check closely with EACH individual customer. The reason for this is not everyone wants them exactly the same?

When I have spare time (this is rare, trust me) or even a "lull" in work I normally build some for inventory and keep them here ready to go. None of these are normally pre-machined for the seals. If I get a call and someone wants a set this way we send them out, if they want them cut for the seals it's not a real big issue. I can set them up again and just do the seals. Many want their old guides used also, no problem for me.

Some don't want them machined for seals because they use the older style pry bar for installing them and need the "lip" on top. I've never used that tool, just find I don't really need it, serves me no purpose here. We use an air operated spring compressor, both for disassembly and assembly of the valve train.

I need some more time to see how this tool performs. Will be a few days at least.

Up to now here's the program works:
the customer sends us 16 useable guides, usually we like at least one valve for fitting. If all 16 valves are identical we need only that one, if there is a dedicated intake and a dedicated exhaust we'd like one of each. We then line the guides, fit them to the valve(s), and cut them for the seals if it is requested, most usually want the intakes cut only. I have no problem this way and actually recommend this now. If not we skip this step.

The "Viton" seals are only really necessary on the intakes and this is generally how most leave here.

We supply the 8 new seals, 16 new horseshoe (guide) locks, and 16 pair standard valve locks. Along with the guide work this is pretty much the "standard" package. We also cover the shipping back (domestic), read the P.S.below.

I can supply ALL the valves also if necessary, but that is a customer option. If we do supply the valves I don't need any sent in with the guides. Have much Flathead inventory on hand.

In order to keep the cost of the procedure down I need the customer's original guides. In the case of the 2-pc guides where there aren't any useable ones to send us the customer must first buy new guides THEN do the liner. More costly when changing from the OEM 2-pc guides setup. I do have all new guides here also if necessary.

Right now I'll have to readjust ALL the older pricing due to the time saving with the new tooling, I just haven't proved out the tooling as of tonight. The only issue at the moment is I'm not sure that top "retainer-plate" is going to keep the guides from "spinning" while boring them for liners. If that works we'll be home free. After that step I'll be able to nail the entire package price down better. It WILL be lower than any previously posted prices, don't know how much? There will definitely be lower pricing either way without cutting for/supplying the seals.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Any pending orders here now will be affected, the price will most likely go down some if the tooling works? I will know in a day or two. Shipping is relatively priced using the small "flat-rate" Post Office boxes. A set of finished guides fit nicely with at least 2 valves.
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File Type: jpg Flathead Valve Guide Fixture-Winona Mod.jpg (78.3 KB, 76 views)

Last edited by GOSFAST; 06-21-2016 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 06-21-2016, 12:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

I need very accurate feedback from mostly the builders' up here, Ol'Ron, etc. about a very specific dimension concerning the valve guides themselves.

This tool WILL end working nicely, BUT, these (used) guides are all over the place size-wise. What I discovered working on this so far is critical to be able to "clamp" these used guides tightly in the tool, as far as any builds go this difference would have no effect at the end on the build in the larger picture!

Also, the issue doesn't affect the setup when we do them in the single-guide fixture. The size variation's will NOT allow the "new" tool to work as it is now. (I still see a reasonably easy fix though)

Here's the problem: the dimension between the upper "groove" where the horseshoe clip (guide-retainer) is located and the spring seat register is "all-over-the-place" from guide to guide? It may be an actual "production batch-to-production batch" one from the beginning? but I'll never know that answer. I have a "ton" of new guides here that are ALL identical and clamp nicely in the fixture but this measurement difference is prevalent on ALL the used ones I have, basically these would be the same type customers will be sending in to line. This would need to be addressed first.

I am reading up to .010" spread between guides, these MUST all be closer, maybe a couple "thou", for me to go forward. If you have numbers simply post them back here. They will probably be something akin to .125" nominally.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. This difference also affects (to a degree) the shims needed to equalize the spring pressures. At a minimum the guides would be symmetrical. The height of the valves in the block would still be an issue with the number of necessary shims used but irrelevant to the guides at this point. Please don't see this as an opportunity to for us to sell new guides, I won't even go down that road. I can fix all the used ones with about 15/20 minutes on the lathe.
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File Type: jpg Flathead Valve Guide-Spring Register Mod.jpg (76.8 KB, 54 views)

Last edited by GOSFAST; 06-21-2016 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Add photo
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Old 06-21-2016, 03:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Ive tried a few different aproaches of this and so far a collet chuck in the lathe is fastest.
If you have a revolver lathe with a collet chuck its way faster then this fixture youre working on...just my 2c.
Height of clip could be fixed in the same setup if in the lathe to so a win-win.
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Old 06-21-2016, 04:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

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Ive tried a few different aproaches of this and so far a collet chuck in the lathe is fastest.
If you have a revolver lathe with a collet chuck its way faster then this fixture youre working on...just my 2c.
Height of clip could be fixed in the same setup if in the lathe to so a win-win.
Hi "murre", we have been getting $160.00 to line them/size them/cut them (8) for seals, supply 8 seals, and ship back to the customer. There's not much left in my pocket after laying out for the liners, the seals, and the frgt at that $160.00? We have a small "break" now for not doing the seals and for doing multiples of 16 (2 or more sets for instance).

Doing one guide at a time in our present (single) fixture at the $160.00 number I'm OK. I can clear enough at that price to cover my "salary", along with the liners, the seals, and the shipping, to "stay the course". I'm in this business over 50 years now and have two problems at the moment, first, there are occasions where I don't have lots of time to do any of this guide work AND build our engines (more help won't solve it, trust me, it'll give me more headaches than the money/time would be worth), and second, I know how the financial situation is now with many people and that $160.00 would limit the amount you'll do.

I'm looking to cut the time/labor/cost spent on this operation enough to pass the savings down over here. I know from my contacts more would use these guides with a even a slightly better price, they downright work really well.

Here's where I am now, as of an hour ago, I can ream ALL 16 in under 8 minutes to accept the liners, next the liners get installed, this is very quick for all 16 with the dedicated driver and an air-hammer, they are now ready to broach (also using the air-hammer) to the finished size with the correct size broaches. Normally they need 2 or 3 passes on the broaching. Simply pressing in the liners and reaming/honing is NOT an option, not the best method! Much like wrist-pin bushings in rods. They should be broached at least once.

I need to have all 16 of these "floor-to-floor" (so to speak) in less than 1 hour. To even-up all 16 height's on the spring register's (separate lathe operation) takes under 10 minutes. Cutting for the seals (if required) would be done directly after the sizing while still in the fixture.


(Add) If anyone here can help I would still appreciate the sizes I was looking for in the initial post??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Well the plan's a good one, just need to exercise it now. Anyone involved here with guides I will follow up on in the next day or so. I'm hoping it works more than you all.
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Old 06-21-2016, 06:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Have you considered clamping horizontally with the fixture split through the holes?
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Old 06-22-2016, 07:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Good work Gary - looks like you're coming up with a viable solution. I think I'll dig through my crap and look for some used guides - would like you to do a set once you're locked down on the process. I continue to use a valve bar - just like it that way, so I will not be using a viton seal.
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Old 06-22-2016, 07:46 AM   #9
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM View Post
Have you considered clamping horizontally with the fixture split through the holes?
Hi Bill, I'm almost home with this project but you caught my eye with this post.

Could you explain it in more detail?, maybe a photo of a hand drawing??

This tool will be set up to basically do anything required on the guides without ever removing them once from the fixture. Will have more on this later in the day!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I will keep everyone interested in this updated, mostly for the guy's with pending orders!
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Old 06-22-2016, 08:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

I have a 5C 1 1/32 Collette for my Lathe that I used to knurl and ream in one pass. Takes about a minute per guide. I use back gear in the lathe to reduce reamer ware. However I've never considered the Keeper location as a factor on spring length. Learn sumpiin new every day. However I do measure the installed height of the spring, but not all 16. I wonder what the difference could be?? With all the modifications we make to these engines, this is just one more thing to check. One thing I do know and that is the valve stem clearance in NEW guides are all over the place. I just Knurl the old ones and don't run any seals. I did run a few back 30 years ago, but feel thrir unnecessary with a tight stem. In my next build the guides will be permanently installed in the block and the springs will be installed at final assy. like when using the dual springs. UGH!!
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Old 06-22-2016, 10:58 AM   #11
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
I have a 5C 1 1/32 Collette for my Lathe that I used to knurl and ream in one pass. Takes about a minute per guide. I use back gear in the lathe to reduce reamer ware. However I've never considered the Keeper location as a factor on spring length. Learn sumpiin new every day. However I do measure the installed height of the spring, but not all 16. I wonder what the difference could be?? With all the modifications we make to these engines, this is just one more thing to check. One thing I do know and that is the valve stem clearance in NEW guides are all over the place. I just Knurl the old ones and don't run any seals. I did run a few back 30 years ago, but feel thrir unnecessary with a tight stem. In my next build the guides will be permanently installed in the block and the springs will be installed at final assy. like when using the dual springs. UGH!!
Hi Ron, many sending their guides here DO NOT want that "lip" on top removed (not sure if that's in your plan there?) so they can use the "pry-bar" to install the valve/guide assy's. I've never used that method, never owned that bar, and have no plans on changing our present procedure. Talking the 8BA platform here (most of what I have here normally) I can remove 16 valves/guides OR reinstall 16 of them in about 30 minutes or less. Removing them occasionally is slightly more time-consuming but still not a real issue, going back together on final (everything cleaned/machined) I can do all in well under 30 minutes. Have done many in this time-frame.

Back to the fixture. I'll place a short series of photo's below, very interesting for sure if you understand machining processes. I know you (Ron) are?

We can now do every required procedure to install liners, install full 1-pc guides, .502" x .343" or even smaller, .312", on the stems including pressing them in place, cut for the Viton seals, repair any broken tops, and just about any other needed operation WITHOUT ever removing the original guides. This was my goal and I believe we did "hit-the-mark". Just need to try a few more of my own pieces before I call it a total success.

If you follow the photo sequence below it's fairly easy to see all the necessary steps and exactly what can be accomplished!

I can remove the fixture totally off any machine, hold it my hand, and mount it back on again. The guides NEVER have to come out until totally done. This is what I needed to make it all happen!

On a side note, one of main concerns was being able to the OEM exhaust guides which don't have any "seal-groove", therefore I couldn't rely on that groove for any referencing, it makes no difference now, it worked out well,
we don't need it. Couple more final touches and we're set (I think)?

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I still could use some thicknesses from up here between the spring register's and the top horseshoe groove? These photos are for installing a 1-pc guide INSIDE the original (the one shown is bronze, you can do a cast one, same procedure). First shot, core-drill, ream to fit .500" guide, install guides, cut for seals, finish size, either ream (not recommended) or hone to size. This step isn't showing here, guides are only for display. Liners are done exactly the same way, guides NEVER leave the fixture. I can "core-drill and ream" (for the 1-pc guides) ALL 16 of them in a few minutes! Look very closely at the guide in the reaming shot, the top is "broken", it is still totally usable when done (except for the "lip") however.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1050028.JPG (78.9 KB, 65 views)
File Type: jpg P1050030.JPG (79.2 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg P1050031.JPG (76.1 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg P1050032.JPG (84.3 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg P1050033.JPG (73.2 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg P1050034.JPG (58.7 KB, 57 views)

Last edited by GOSFAST; 06-22-2016 at 11:32 AM. Reason: C-Add photo 6
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:09 AM   #12
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

This process has to cost at least twice as much as new guides?? I have used and sold literally thousands of new guides and have never seen or heard of a problem. Maybe we have just been lucky? Also, since I have not purchased boxes of new guides in the past couple of years maybe I am out-of-touch with current costs?
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Old 06-22-2016, 12:08 PM   #13
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This process has to cost at least twice as much as new guides?? I have used and sold literally thousands of new guides and have never seen or heard of a problem. Maybe we have just been lucky? Also, since I have not purchased boxes of new guides in the past couple of years maybe I am out-of-touch with current costs?
Hi John, I have a whole bunch of new guides here and actually sell very few?

Here's the low-down: new guides are approximately $5.00/ea. You can figure that total out for 16. We've been getting $160.00 to line a set. Frgt cost back to the customer (about $6.00 domestic) has always been included, along with 8 Viton seals, 16 new horseshoe clips, 16 pair new valve locks, and the finished guides. If you subtract the cost of 16 guides (assuming you NEED new guides) the price isn't all that bad EVEN at that $160.00 number.
Most people DO NOT need all new guides, I do know this.

With this new setup (still assuming it delivers) I will cut entire time-frame WAY down. We were doing 1 guide at a time, I'd like to help more people up here looking to step-up to the bronze deal. This SHOULD do it, I'm still in the middle of this whole operation, AND the guides to do yet are kind of "pouring-in" so to speak!

I know you and a few others feel this is ALL unnecessary, but I can tell behind the scenes here you would never suspect it. I'm real comfortable doing a few sets every year, I'm not aiming at supplying anyone with bulk bronze guides. It's NOT for me! I actually got contacted by a vendor we all know (I assume for a small bulk order), not the least bit interested.

Next step here after all is proven out, I need to evaluate the entire program. I need to figure the final cost for all the material, and redo some pricing. I believe it will all work out for the good, I just can't confirm any numbers as of today. We've always given a deeper discount for more than 1 set a time/same. That will need to end BUT any pending at the moment will get the newer price which I believe will be even less. If, for ANY reason at this point it doesn't work as planned, we will still honor the earlier "quoted" pricing.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. As for "being a necessity", if anyone has ever had a valve "hang" (I do know you ARE aware of this happening occasionally?) AND couldn't get it free (I've been here myself on '49 F-1) it just ain't no fun, not to mention the labor/material-expense. I've done 100's upon 100's of lined guides for over 40 years now (including my own back when) and NOT one single time I'm aware of did one "hang", not one out of probably thousands. For me this is a
"no-brainer". But that's just me!
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

New guides are much cheaper than going to liners.The bronze liners are a bench racer crowd topic.Not really anything that a 85 hp flathead will require.Yes they work they have a good lifespan and reliable.There is also a crowd out there in the machine shop industry that wouldn't take bronze guides if they were free.They have sucess with cast and will never change as they are dyed in the wool anti bronze.I have called on 100's of shops over the years and have been involved with many conversations about guide repair.There isn't much of an argument as to what does better.The valve hanging is usually to long storage and little driving. I have done 100's of liners without fault but with today's oils a filter system and maintenance scheduling the cast guides will run with the best of them in a flathead.I like the liners if the guides are worn out of spec and the new ones aren't readily available the if the customer wants liners that is his call not mine.Supplying guides to a costumer that will do his own valves and seats leaves a lot to desire as the average owner won't have enough quality equipment to get a seat with little to no runout with a guide that is a slip fit at best in the block.Any guide repair will suffer from a seat that that is out of runout spec's.In any engines I have been involved in i glue the guide in and proceed with a normal valve 3 angle and assemble like a overhead valve head with a c compressor and the correct jaws and yes there are tight quarters to work in but the seat runout is on the money every time just like any other interference press fit guide. Machining the guide for seals is a good option as well.
Just my 2

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Old 06-22-2016, 04:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

On this topic, I found my A engine sucked oil up past the inlet guides.
I found the bore for them in the block was worn and even new guides were loose,my fix was to ream the guide bores oversize and make my own new guides,I also took the opportunity to fit up the K/line liners ,I know its over kill ,but having my 33 with new straight valve kit fitted hang up a valve while away in it last month and my A oiling up from loose guides I now pay a LOT of attention to this area. and my son bought me the new K/Line stuff and the goodson stuff for doing the valve seats and inserts.
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Old 06-22-2016, 07:58 PM   #16
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Here is another possible approach to making a holding fixture. As I understand it, there is a problem clamping on the spring seat surface and the horseshoe clip as the distance between the seat and the clip groove may vary. So I would suggest making a three piece fixture that would clamp around the large diameter of the guide; which you would think be a consistent diameter.
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Old 06-22-2016, 10:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

how much torque does it take for the process, would a bellville washer provide enough tension in your existing fixture

if the top plate is cut to just clamp 4 guides each section ---if it rocked you could swap a couple and the smaller plate could adjust for variations better

another thought is to slit the bottom plate and have through bolts to clamp the guides---like previous post mentioned, but not cut all the way to the ends---althouth the holes are sort of close to the edges , maybe a steel plate on the sides to distribute the force ---
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Old 06-22-2016, 10:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Gary
I love fixtures. I make allot of them for many jobs. It improves accuracy as well as reduces cost. I really have nothing against Bronze guides. It's just a flathead, you cand do anything you want to it, spend tons of money on it and if everything works as planed get maybe 150 HP from it. Now I know you can get more, but they don't last very long. At best you might get 50k from one befor you have to rebuild it. I'd just like to keep the cost down. You do the best you can, with what ever you have. I just love flat motors.
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Old 06-23-2016, 06:13 AM   #19
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM View Post
Here is another possible approach to making a holding fixture. As I understand it, there is a problem clamping on the spring seat surface and the horseshoe clip as the distance between the seat and the clip groove may vary. So I would suggest making a three piece fixture that would clamp around the large diameter of the guide; which you would think be a consistent diameter.
Hi Bill, thanks for that drawing. That would do the job, in fact it's basically the same the design as the one I have now but for a single guide. I MUST be able to do all 16 at the same time and without changing any guides.

That "capture" method of clamping works well (see the photo below).

(Add) I'm not suggesting this for any power gains (really), more to keep the valves from hanging after long storage. Ron, mileage-wise I believe these Flathead's could easily go over 75,000, maybe even hit a 100,000 on a decent build?? Today's forged pistons, Moly rings/metric ring packs, make this feasible.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. With respect to the amount of clamping force to hold the guide, it must be enough to withstand the same force/effort as tapping the guide with a 3/8-16 hand tap. They need to be clamped tightly. The tool below here works excellent by design in that feature, I just can't do a 16 singles for any less than the original pricing above. Mounting/changing 4 at a time would help but still not enough.
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Last edited by GOSFAST; 06-23-2016 at 06:22 AM. Reason: Add info
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Old 06-23-2016, 03:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: Bronze Guides

Ready to call it a wrap, tool looking really good so far.

Actually serves more purposes than I even realized.

Can verify in a matter of minutes, maybe 5 or less, any variations from the top horseshoe groove to the spring seat register, easily.

I really never give this area much thought, it doesn't hurt anything in the larger picture. It does help explain some the number of various shims needed on ass'y from valve-to-valve??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a series of 4 photos, ALL original Flathead guides (no aftermarket, none damaged) showing the difference between only these 4. I checked a dozen aftermarket pieces from 2 different batches and they were within about .002" of each other! Only the OEM's are all over the place!
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File Type: jpg P1050042.JPG (77.0 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg P1050041.JPG (79.8 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg P1050040.JPG (77.7 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg P1050039.JPG (77.1 KB, 24 views)
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