What are the advantages of upgrading to Hydraulic Braks

[CaliforniaBorn36]

Originally Posted by BobR35

Just thinking about upgrading my brakes to hydraulics. Driving it a lot and realizing if you're going drive often and be safe it would make sense. My'35 brakes work well but not good enough for traffic these days. Just saying......

This statement confuses me, but then maybe I do not understand. Mechanical Brakes and Hydraulic brakes both stop the car by forcing the brake shoe against the drum, they just use different mechanisms to apply pressure. SO, why do people imply that hydraulic brakes are safer? I can lock up the mechanical brakes on my '36, (don't ask how I know). So, the only way to make them safer would be to increase the contact patch of the tires so there is more resistance to sliding and therefore better stopping. Oh, and I don't have to worry about brake fluid or loss of pressure in the system. If one brake rod were to break, I would still have 3 functioning brakes.

Please help me understand why hydraulics brakes are perceived to be safer. I understand that the use of hydraulics multiplies the force applied to the pedal, (requiring less force from the driver), but aside from that is there something else I am not considering?

Brakes stop the tire from rotating, so bigger braking surface stops the tire faster, (important with higher powered vehicles, and maybe at higher speeds). Tires stop the car from moving in it's current direction, (so a larger contact patch will improve that action). I could put bigger brakes on a car, but unless I increase the resistance of the tires, I am just going to lock up the brakes and skid sooner, No? Locking up the brakes is not desirable in an emergency situation.

Always interested in learning. Also thinking that many people make this upgrade without understanding it's limitations as well.

[Kube]

I believe many folks "upgrade" (that's what they call it) as they don't know how to repair as necessary, install and adjust mechanical brakes.
Often times I dare say, the same guys "upgrade" to 12v. simply because they lack the skills necessary to get the 6v. system operating properly.

[19Fordy]

I think you answered you own question when you stated, My'35 brakes work well but not good enough for traffic these days. Just saying......" and then following up with " I understand that the use of hydraulics multiplies the force applied to the pedal, (requiring less force from the driver)..."

Some folks may not be strong enough to consistently apply the force needed to make mechanical brakes perform to their max when needed. Just not efficient.

Surely, Henry Ford did some research on this. As vehicles became heavier and larger improved braking systems were needed.

[skidmarks]

Its also, the replacement parts are readily available. Walk into a napa and ask for a 37 ford right rear cable

[Kube]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

I think you answered you own question when you stated, My'35 brakes work well but not good enough for traffic these days. Just saying......" and then following up with " I understand that the use of hydraulics multiplies the force applied to the pedal, (requiring less force from the driver)..."

Some folks may not be strong enough to consistently apply the force needed to make mechanical brakes pwerform to their max when needed. Just not efficient.

Surely, Henry Ford did some research on this. As vehicles becam heavier and larger improved braking systems were needed.

This is a good point ... the strength of the driver (or lack thereof) issue.

[Jack E/NJ]

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Keep your mechanicals. I wish I'd kept mine instead of installing the Lockheed hydraulics. FlatheadTed's bendix-like conversion kit for mechanicals should make a big difference. I just wish he'd hurry up with the conversion kit for the Lockheed hydraulics. 8^) Jack E/NJ

[19Fordy]

Old technology is not always the best technology needed for the demands of the situation.

[CaliforniaBorn36]

19Fordy, The beginning of my post is a quote that someone made on another post that I did not want to muddy up.

I am planning to keep my mechanical brakes on my '36 unless I cannot find parts at some point in the future. Just putting this out there so others thinking about making the upgrade understand and can make a better cost versus benefit decision.

As Kube points out, I think a lot of money is spent unnecessarily because people get convinced that things are better, when in fact, that is not necessarily the case, or they don't understand how to fix what they have.

If stopping safely is the concern, there are other options like:
1.) Minimize freeway driving to minimize exposure.
2.) These cars are old, don't drive them like today's cars. Drive to the right. Slower
3.) Increase tire width to get more tire on the road, also make certain tires are not dried out and therefor less flexible.
4.) These cars require us to be present, don't let yourself be lulled into that state your modern high tech transportation allows you to.
5.) What did we learn years ago in driver training...drive defensively
6.) To the best of your ability, leave a safe distance between you and that guy in front of you.
7.) Don't just get there, enjoy getting there

I am not lecturing, just saying be careful and enjoy the ride. Some "upgrades" may not be worth the time or effort, and/or leave the driver with an inflated feeling of improved safety.

While these vehicles are expensive, unnecessary "improvements" can easily multiply the cost of ownership and discourage some of those who might truly enjoy the hobby.

[Jim in Wisconsin]

How could hydraulic brakes multiply the force? The power comes from your leg pushing on the pedal, the result is the shoes pressing on the drums. If no other power source is used, how could there be any multiplication? There is no such thing as free energy. Extra leverage can increase the pressure at the shoes, at the expense of longer throw, but that can be done with either system.
There is less friction in a hydraulic system than in a mechanical one, other than that, they are about the same.
Henry said "The safety of steel, from pedal to wheel".
Well maybe it was some ad guy that dreamed it up, but Henry agreed. He fought against hydraulics for a long time, but finally gave in.

[JSeery]

All manufactures upgraded to hydraulic brakes, Ford just lagged behind because of Henry's resistance to change. They tried the cable brakes first for two years. Nothing wrong with keeping a stock car stock/original, but Ford (and everyone else) upgraded for a reason. Jim the multiplication factor comes from the relative size of the master cylinder vs the wheel cylinders. One of the big issues was the brakes at each wheel working evenly, this becomes a factor on any slick surface. If the brake force is not applied equally the vehicle will pull in one direction or the other. Hydraulic brakes are much easier to get to work equally.

[woodiewagon46]

Part of the problem with mechanical brakes is that they must be maintained. As levers, bushings, pins, rollers, etc. wear, they induce slack in the system, causing uneven braking. They also require lubrication. I just did a complete restoration of a 1929 Ford mechanical brake system. When I started, you could press the brake pedal with both feet and the car wouldn't stop. I can now "lock em up" and bring the car to a quick stop from 50 MPH.

[DavidG]

I think that part of the attraction of hydraulic brakes is a lack of understanding what constitutes a good mechanical brake system and what is required to maintain its efficiency. There have been numerous threads on this site where it is obvious that the basics have not been given a lot of thought and/or the car owners do not have the widely-available Ford service bulletins to inform him/herself how to keep their brakes "as new".


Your point about the role of tires in braking is an excellent one. Not only is the width of the tread important but also the tread design to at least the same extent. The tread designs on many of the flathead-era replacement tires, most notably the Firestone 16" and 17" tires, are the antithesis of effective braking, be they hydraulic or mechanical systems.

[Aarongriffey]

Hydraulic linkage does NOT always multiply the pressure going to push brake shoes against the drums.
That depends on the size of the master cylinder piston compared to the wheel cylinder size.
If you make a brake pedal three feet long and put it in a ‘37 Ford you will not have to push very hard to stop the car, but you will have to have a much longer stroke before you get everything working.
Same with hydraulic.
If you use a master cylinder that has a smaller piston you will not have to push as hard but the pedal will have to move further.
As a side note, Bugatti last built cars in 1941. They NEVER built a car with hydraulic brakes.
I have had cars with mechanical brakes, they worked well but were a pain to get working right, so I prefer hydraulic, until I break a hose, or blow a cylinder.

[Floyd]

There are others but reply # 9, 10 & 11 are technically correct. The total force applied to the system is via the leg muscle. This energy / force is transmitted to the brake shoe. The hydraulic system is slightly more efficient in doing this as it does not have to deal with the friction in the various levers and pin joints. How much? We can calculate it easily but the answer is "not much " you would not be able to tell it. The two main reasons for hydraulic brakes is 1) maintaining the adjustment of mechanicals is much greater than hydraulics (thanks Bernoulli ) and 2) the manufacturing cost is less when you consider all the brackets ,rods levers etc and the labor to install and adjust.
I have mechanicals on my 32. Hydraulics would do nothing. My 40 has hydraulics because it came with them. Calculations available, but not necessary. Hydraulics can not generate more force/energy than we put into it.

[Aarongriffey]

Hydraulic brakes always get the same amount of pressure to each wheel.
From there wheel cylinder size decides how much less pressure is put on the rear shoes compared to the front.

[JSeery]

Sure is a lot of misunderstanding on how hydraulic brake systems work!

[Tim Ayers]

My buddy had a '35 5W hotrod that retained it's mechanical brakes. The car stopped great. Looking it over, the system was "kept up" and adjusted correctly.

By kept up, I mean maintained. As these cars got older, it must have been amazing to see the crap people would do or how far they push things to the wear limit.

Bent and severely rusty brake rods, worn out parts from lack of greasing, etc. Pedals that can rock back and forth due to completely worn out bushings and shafts, etc.

Just as a hydraulic system can be crappy as well. Ill adjusted brakes, etc may not have the system working correctly.

As fond as it is to go down memory lane (recent thread about bailing wire holding a carb return spring and the reluctance to fix it correctly just because Gramps did it that way) are prime examples of all the farmer fixes and shade tree mechanics that people have done to these old Fords to keep them on the road.

Personally, as a hot rodder, I just love the look of a '40-style backing plate and will continue to use them unless I purchase a car without. I would not bother to convert them.

[Jack E/NJ]

Yep. Mechanicals too. Jack E/NJ

[McMimmcs]

Originally Posted by Kube

I believe many folks "upgrade" (that's what they call it) as they don't know how to repair as necessary, install and adjust mechanical brakes.
Often times I dare say, the same guys "upgrade" to 12v. simply because they lack the skills necessary to get the 6v. system operating properly.

I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s never been said as eloquently before !

[Anteek29]

"Mechanical vs. Hydraulic Brakes" follows along the same conversation as "Which Oil is Best?"

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Anteek29

"Mechanical vs. Hydraulic Brakes" follows along the same conversation as "Which Oil is Best?"

LOL! So true.

[Brian]

Last year I finally converted my 35 to Lincoln brakes. Now they work....
I've owned and driven this car since the early 70's, towed many heavy loads, raced it, all with rod brakes. What I've found with rod brakes in 35 fords, is that sure, you can lock them up once, twice, maybe three times [could be pushing it], but you cannot continually keep locking them up; they go away. Same as going down a big, twisty, windy mountain pass, [we have many 'little hills' like that here in New Zealand], the brakes just fade, so much so that you can ride that brake pedal all the way down the pass with absolutely no retardation whatsoever! Engine braking is very important with rod brakes.
Now I'm running a Columbia. Where has the engine braking gone?? The Lincoln brakes would be the 2nd best modification I've ever performed during my ownership of this car.

[19Fordy]

Any improvement to your vehicle that makes it safer is money well spent,despite one's love for nostalgia and rationalization for not doing so, unless you rarely drive your vehicle or drive it only in pristine weather and trraffic conditions. . Think of the days of no safety plate glass or padded dashes or seat belts or "spear shaped" hood ornaments.

[hop up]

I have both and both can work great if properly maintained and don’t see a advantage to either . I do see a issue with someone trying to upgrade with a 1936 ford. This is because in 36 ford uses a different offset in the backing plates and different spindle. So updates to a 36 juice brakes will be a few more bucks as the spindles need a upgraded to get proper offset on juice brakes as well and not sure if upgrade is the proper word

[Brian]

Mechanical vs. Hydraulic Brakes" follows along the same conversation as "Which Oil is Best?

RUBBISH!! Why don't modern vehicles run mechanical brakes? Because they're not a patch on the modern boosted disc [hydraulic] brakes. That's why!

[Brian]

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Hop up, 35, 36 fords can use 39-40 Lincoln backing plates which have the deep offset.

[hop up]

Brian thank for that great information I won’t be throwing the 36 stuff out any longer . So are you using the Lincoln drums as well.

[big job]

I thought I wrote this before: a brake rod and a brake line. Pick one. Brake rods are
solid as a rock, brake lines and hoses subject to rust. Unless you live in the perfect world.
Here we deal with 30s 40s 50s brakes ok so a 3 yr old car, wife car pray god hydraulic hose blew out and she went right thru red light duel brake a joke. Our Model A and even
my T I throw ya thru the windshield. sam

ain't got air brakes or mechanical s I DO NOT want it...

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by woodiewagon46

Part of the problem with mechanical brakes is that they must be maintained. As levers, bushings, pins, rollers, etc. wear, they induce slack in the system, causing uneven braking. They also require lubrication. I just did a complete restoration of a 1929 Ford mechanical brake system. When I started, you could press the brake pedal with both feet and the car wouldn't stop. I can now "lock em up" and bring the car to a quick stop from 50 MPH.

once you get them dialed in, they don't need much work. also you let your car sit for 20 years, the brakes will still work!

[19Fordy]

Or like asking a Vietnam infantryman on combat duty:
'Which rifle did the US infantry serving in Viet Nam prefer?"

No! This not going to turn into a political discussion.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by big job

I thought I wrote this before: a brake rod and a brake line. Pick one. Brake rods are
solid as a rock, brake lines and hoses subject to rust. Unless you live in the perfect world.
Here we deal with 30s 40s 50s brakes ok so a 3 yr old car, wife car pray god hydraulic hose blew out and she went right thru red light duel brake a joke. Our Model A and even
my T I throw ya thru the windshield. sam

ain't got air brakes or mechanical s I DO NOT want it...

Hard rubber tires don't go flat either, would you prefer them over modern tires?
Bill

[Karl]

Originally Posted by JSeery

All manufactures upgraded to hydraulic brakes, Ford just lagged behind because of Henry's resistance to change. They tried the cable brakes first for two years. Nothing wrong with keeping a stock car stock/original, but Ford (and everyone else) upgraded for a reason. Jim the multiplication factor comes from the relative size of the master cylinder vs the wheel cylinders. One of the big issues was the brakes at each wheel working evenly, this becomes a factor on any slick surface. If the brake force is not applied equally the vehicle will pull in one direction or the other. Hydraulic brakes are much easier to get to work equally.

Agreed the advantage (and probably the only advantage) of hydraulics are they are self equalizing. They are probably easier to set up as well . However well adjusted and set up mechanical brakes are fine , I have certainly outbraked modern cars with hydraulics in my 34 -Karl

[Pete]

There is NO race track in existence that will allow a car with mechanical brakes on the track AT SPEED.

City streets and highways are NOT classified as race tracks, therefore mechanical brakes, 6 volts, incandescent bulbs, and non detergent oil are allowed.

The type of system you use is up to you. Whichever one, you will always have “whiners” from the other camp trying to get you to change.

[Frank Miller]

Changed a tire on a 2009 Honda motorcycle for someone last summer. The rear wheel is mechanical brake.
The post above mentioning brake fade is inaccurate. Brakes fade because of heat. Also brake fluid fails because of heat. That does not happen with mechanical brakes.
When I climbed Mt Washington on my 49 there was a mini van coming down that pulled into a rest stop with their brakes smoking. First gear served me well with minimal brake use. I do not care what you are driving you can run out of brakes.
Which brings to mind the story from filming the movie, bullet. The camera man in the back was getting nervous and told Steve McQueen he had run out of film to which Steve replied he ran out of brakes miles ago.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

Changed a tire on a 2009 Honda motorcycle for someone last summer. The rear wheel is mechanical brake.
The post above mentioning brake fade is inaccurate. Brakes fade because of heat. Also brake fluid fails because of heat. That does not happen with mechanical brakes.
When I climbed Mt Washington on my 49 there was a mini van coming down that pulled into a rest stop with their brakes smoking. First gear served me well with minimal brake use. I do not care what you are driving you can run out of brakes.
Which brings to mind the story from filming the movie, bullet. The camera man in the back was getting nervous and told Steve McQueen he had run out of film to which Steve replied he ran out of brakes miles ago.

I don't think a motorcycle is a direct comparison; especially if it was a dirt bike.
A motorcycle brake rod is around two feet in length and has two pivot points by design. Very little to go wrong in this set up. They are either adjust correctly or they aren't. Plus, on a motorcycle, you can push down on the rear brake lever with all of your weight. Three things will happen: Wheel locks up (which is most often the case with a motorcycle due to most of the weight being towards the front side of centerline or goes into a skid on dirt to lack of grip vs. pavement, wheel slows down but doesn't go into a skid, or brake doesn't work due to poor mechanical connection for various reasons.

The weight difference between these two vehicles is tremendously different as well. If it was a dirt bike, what did it weigh? At most 250 lbs. It's a street bike (Harley, Indian, and full dressers not included) what did it weight? 500 +/- That is worlds apart from trying to stop something weighing 2,000 lbs or more.

[big job]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

Hard rubber tires don't go flat either, would you prefer them over modern tires?
Bill

Any day !!!

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by big job

I thought I wrote this before: a brake rod and a brake line. Pick one. Brake rods are
solid as a rock, brake lines and hoses subject to rust. Unless you live in the perfect world.
Here we deal with 30s 40s 50s brakes ok so a 3 yr old car, wife car pray god hydraulic hose blew out and she went right thru red light duel brake a joke. Our Model A and even
my T I throw ya thru the windshield. sam

ain't got air brakes or mechanical s I DO NOT want it...

Thrown threw the windshield that would be a site that plate glass is really safe!

[19Fordy]

Frank, That Steve McQueen response is 'golden".

[Jim in Wisconsin]

Pete, I have seen many vintage racers at Road America with mechanical brakes. Bugatti for one, old '30s indy cars, etc. At speed? Well they aren't as fast as a modern race car for sure.

[Frank Miller]

While someone contested about the motorcycle being a direct comparison it was a 750 Shadow street bike. My point was that his technology has not been abandoned. And it is funny because you will see most dirt bikes running hydraulic discs.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

While someone contested about the motorcycle being a direct comparison it was a 750 Shadow street bike. My point was that his technology has not been abandoned. And it is funny because you will see most dirt bikes running hydraulic discs.

Frank,

That was me. I agree that the technology isn't abandoned and that's odd that a 750 street bike would have mechanical brakes still. Not doubting it, just find it odd.

I've been out of the bike world for a bit. Is the Shadow a lower level Honda?

Agreed most dirt bikes have gone all hydraulic; especially racers. I think Honda introduced hydraulic rear brakes with either the '86 or '87 CR line and started to introduce them into the lower level dirt bikes afterward.

On a racer, I think it has to do with reducing unsprung weight since the hub is lighter when using a rear disc.

For a racing (which a did a bit in the 125 class), I guess it's because you use the brakes a lot. It's more a feathering of the brakes, so maybe the thought is just a light squeeze of the lever brings the brakes on and the rider has more "feel" or "control" over the amount of braking. On a 2 stroker, it's not uncommon to be feathering the front brake while giving it throttle out of a turn to get back into the powerband.

That said, all of my boy's beginner bikes (all under 100cc) had mechanicals front and rear, but these were entry level bikes.
Interesting question.

[Frank Miller]

I was surprised to find it there as were you for me to mention it.

[FlatheadTed]

cccccccccccccc

[al's28/33]

It just doesn't seem safe to run these 80 year old plus cars at modern highway speeds or up and down steep grades. I take my "A" or V8 out on sleepy back roads when traffic is light and only when weather conditions are clear and I drive under 40mph. There are always modern cars tailgating, so I'll pull over and let them pass. I do not drive at night and I do not expect everyone else on the road to stay 20 feet away from me, but I maintain my original 6-volt systems, generators, steering worm gears and mechanical brakes and my cars never fail me.
You just have to be safe, think safe and act safe.

[rotorwrench]

Converting to Lockheed style hydraulic brakes is only a moderate improvement over a well tuned mechanical brake system. The Bendix types like the Lincoln cars had do have a definite braking advantage due to the floating shoes and how they react with primary and secondary shoe action. Modern reproductions of the Lincoln style Bendix brakes are available now. I wouldn't bother to convert unless I put Bendix type brakes on there. The Ford drums work with them so the major cost is for the backing plates, spindles if an early model, and shoe assemblies. A person can even put auto adjusters on there if they can find a set up for the 12-inch brakes.

Most folks that do this are either going for a resto-mod or a vintage type hot-rod. Street rods go with front disks minimum with either disk or drum rears depending on the builder.