waterpump options for a 1931

[M2M]

Is there a good reason why people "upgrade" from stock water pumps to "leakless"? Do stock pumps give some warning before dying? And are all the "leakless" pumps available equal? What's the best one and why?

[Mike V. Florida]

They feel the leakless ones are better as they do not require maintenance. The original ones need grease, the packing added to or replaced, occasional tightening.


There are those that have original non "leakless" pumps on their cars for years with no "problems", just ask Tom Wesenberg.

[Synchro909]

I've driven many thousands of miles with an original water pump without too much trouble but when it did start acting up, I made my own with a ceramic seal. New beefier castings and nothing rubbing the shaft. It looks just like the original and should outlast me several times over and there is no maintenance.
The "leakless" ones sold by the vendors last about 20,000 miles, then they are leakless no more!

[M2M]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I've driven many thousands of miles with an original water pump without too much trouble but when it did start acting up, I made my own with a ceramic seal. New beefier castings and nothing rubbing the shaft. It looks just like the original and should outlast me several times over and there is no maintenance.
The "leakless" ones sold by the vendors last about 20,000 miles, then they are leakless no more!

Sounds good, maybe you should sell these.


What goes wrong with original pumps? Are replacement shafts sold for originals made from the same material or a softer metal?

[WHN]

We have a leakless water pump on our 29 that is going on 30 years old with no issues.

Also aluminum two blade fan.

A couple less things to worry about. Enjoy.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

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Originally Posted by WHN

We have a leakless water pump on our 29 that is going on 30 years old with no issues.

Also aluminum two blade fan.

A couple less things to worry about. Enjoy.

Seems to be a few designs to choose from when looking at vendors catalogues.


Which leakless design do you use?

[BillCNC]

I admit I haven't compared leak-less to original in design. as my water pump seem's fine so far. But I am curious, is there a visual difference between original and leak-less pumps?

Regards
Bill

[Joe K]

I think the leakless is designed to replace the original "visually." It is not possible to tell which it is EXCEPT the gland nut might appear too close to the bracket back in the leakless.

I have made up for myself the "home grown" variant of the leakless pump. The (mine) single seal in the rear bushing (they now have double which are placed one forward and one back of the grease port) and a Torrington needle and hardened bushing at the front. The advantage of this is one can still have the packing gland - but leave it loose as a sort of "backup" to the lip seal. If the pump leaks - give it a turn.

Joe K

[redmodelt]

The leakless and replacement shafts are stainless steel to prevent rusting which is where a lot of the problems come from. Water would get between the packing and shaft and eat away the original type steel shaft. We have been using the rear seal kit from Snyder's with original type bearings in front.

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P...l-a/water-pump
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P...l-a/water-pump

[BillCNC]

Originally Posted by Joe K

I have made up for myself the "home grown" variant of the leakless pump. The (mine) single seal in the rear bushing (they now have double which are placed one forward and one back of the grease port) and a Torrington needle and hardened bushing at the front. The advantage of this is one can still have the packing gland - but leave it loose as a sort of "backup" to the lip seal. If the pump leaks - give it a turn.

Joe K

Joe,

As a retired experimental machinist and prototype builder, ... I'd love to see some pictures of your "Home Grown" water pump.

Regards
Bill

[katy]

Has anyone used the Snyder's "STAINLESS LEAKLESS WATER PUMP REBUILD KIT" and been happy w/it?

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P...earchByKeyword

[WHN]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Seems to be a few designs to choose from when looking at vendors catalogues.


Which leakless design do you use?

It’s been along time since we install the water pump. Purchased it from Mac’s when they were still in Lockport, New York. I just check there current add on line. It sounds like the same features.

I don’t believe you will be sorry, and your firewall will stay cleaner along with the radiator.

Do you have engine side pans?

[Kurt in NJ]

The shortest lived pump I had was a stainless shaft, I have a stock pump now, no leaks, been over 25 years, it was made from used parts salvaged from "leakless" conversion, the leakless pump has been replaced 2 more times, so for me a stock pump is better, got the used parts from 2 other pumps, should last me long enough---- I found the stock pumps leak less and less as the packing settles in,

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

Joe,

As a retired experimental machinist and prototype builder, ... I'd love to see some pictures of your "Home Grown" water pump.

Regards
Bill

Not much special really. The Torrington drawn cup needle bearing is B-1416. The sleeve I'm not coming up with the number (its not marked) but is hardened, made to fit the bearing and is available from Torrington. OD is .875 and ID is .6245 (press fit on shaft.)

Edit: Race sleeve is Torrington IR-1016 (Ref. "How to Restore Your Model A" Vol 7 Page 13)

The rear bushing is (was) the one available with the lip seal (only one) and replaces the original non lip seal exactly, including threads to put on your repop (or original) gland nut. Today I would use what is available which IIRC are now two lip seals.

The Torrington drawn cup bearing method uses the sheet metal "bushing" from the front bearing (it "snaps" in place with a chevron so the original rollers can pass over the joint) and this bushing becomes a "spacer" to make up the difference in ID of the nose of the housing and the OD of the Torrington needle bearing.

There are downsides to the method.

One downside I've seen the reason for since doing mine. The generally available today water pump shafts are UNDERSIZE, having been made from rolled stainless rod and typically are 2 to 3 thousandths under the Ford drawing diameter. This anomaly is reported by Vince Falter at his most excellent Ford Garage site. See http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/originalwpshaft.htm for original shaft.

The solution back when I did my pump was to "knurl" the shaft or otherwise upset the diameter and create a force fit of the Torrington sleeve on the shaft.

And this brings the second downside: the pump regardless of shaft has to be assembled and then the sleeve pressed on alongside the bearing insert. Once assembled, the pump cannot be readily disassembled without destroying parts.

Assembly is not THAT difficult. A piece of pipe and a wide opening bench vise can do the pressing. Getting apart (undoing the press fit) would be a challenge, but not insurmountable. (A strong press can shear a soft pin used to stake the impeller and disassemble from the back side first.)

The supposed recommendation is that this bearing method gets past the issue of modern undersize shafts, which with original type Ford "loose" cage bearings can be a cause of front water pump vibration which leads to fan failure. The Torrington setup is TIGHT as it goes together and results in no vibration.

Hope this helps. The first mention of a Torrington needle nose water pump is the "How to Restore Your Model A" Volume 1 (from 1967) Page 102. So this methodology has been around for a while. There are other later sources where the knurling aspect is mentioned as a shaft remedy.

Joe K

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by WHN

It’s been along time since we install the water pump. Purchased it from Mac’s when they were still in Lockport, New York. I just check there current add on line. It sounds like the same features.

I don’t believe you will be sorry, and your firewall will stay cleaner along with the radiator.

Do you have engine side pans?

Am asking for future reference from someone with a good experience. I have leakless, was put on by a Mod A Shop long ago, no problems with it. The shop did not put down on the paperwork. When I asked 5 years later where it was sourced from the shop did not know where the pump was from, or type leakless. Am running side pans. Got tired of leaks so had a leakless put on. Leaks most probably due to my inexperience at the time, did not know then when putting in new lead packing to add grease in the packing nut.

[Synchro909]

[QUOTE=M2M;1754827]Sounds good, maybe you should sell these.

M2M, I looked into this but it didn't take long to realise that the numbers just don't stack up. It would be expensive to tool up to produce a new pump and with a limited market, export/import hassles freight, distribution etc,. In addition, in the US, there is an attitude that if it is not made in America (foreign), it's rubbish!" so it would be too much trouble to be bothered. What many in the US don't realise is that to the other 95% of people in the world, Americans are foreigners!

[Joe K]

[QUOTE=Synchro909;1755143]

Originally Posted by M2M

Sounds good, maybe you should sell these.

M2M, I looked into this but it didn't take long to realise that the numbers just don't stack up. It would be expensive to tool up to produce a new pump and with a limited market, export/import hassles freight, distribution etc,. In addition, in the US, there is an attitude that if it is not made in America (foreign), it's rubbish!" so it would be too much trouble to be bothered. What many in the US don't realise is that to the other 95% of people in the world, Americans are foreigners!

There have been MANY replacement pumps made and sold for the Model A over its lifetime & beyond. I have at least four different pumps upstairs, none of which is a Ford pump, and all have one advantage or another over the Ford Pump. JC Whitney, Western Auto, and PepBoys all had their replacement pump.

Joe K

[Synchro909]

[QUOTE=Joe K;1755150]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

There have been MANY replacement pumps made and sold for the Model A over its lifetime & beyond. I have at least four different pumps upstairs, none of which is a Ford pump, and all have one advantage or another over the Ford Pump. JC Whitney, Western Auto, and PepBoys all had their replacement pump.

Joe K

Yes, Joe. That was all part of what I considered. I decided to do my own and stay out of the $#!T fight.

[M2M]

[QUOTE=Synchro909;1755143]

Originally Posted by M2M

Sounds good, maybe you should sell these.

M2M, I looked into this but it didn't take long to realise that the numbers just don't stack up. It would be expensive to tool up to produce a new pump and with a limited market, export/import hassles freight, distribution etc,. In addition, in the US, there is an attitude that if it is not made in America (foreign), it's rubbish!" so it would be too much trouble to be bothered. What many in the US don't realise is that to the other 95% of people in the world, Americans are foreigners!

How did you make your own if you didn't tool up? I like the idea of an "Aussie Outback" pump. If the $A falls it may viable. With soft and undersized shafts the norm, sounds like the hobby could use it or at least proper shafts.

[CarlG]

I've had a James Rupert water pump now for 8 or 9 years (15,000 miles). Nary a problem or a leak.