The Ford Barn

Steinar · 07-03-2011, 08:43 AM

Hi!

I know my A should not have had hydraulic brakes, but I also know my A is not the only one with this setup. But one thing is a bit special on mine, instead of modifying the rear 46 - 48 brake shields, they are mounted up side down. Which make them a direct bolt on. This is not a result of my brain work, I just bought it this way, and now I am trying to restore the whole system to bring the car back out on to the road again, after maybe as much as 20 years standing still. Well, I put everything back in place, new master and new wheel cylinders. But I cannot get the air out of the system.
I've been bench bleeding the master, no sign of air there. So I feel pretty sure the problem is my rear cylinders, since bleeder screw is now at the bottom of the wheel cylinder, not at the top where it obviously should have been. So my question is, would a vacuum bleeding system be able to suck this air out, or should I go the hard way and do some cutting and welding mods to the brake shields? I sure hope that would not be necessary, the car has been run with this setup earlier. I also read a comment, I think on H.A.M.B somewhere, where this setup was described in an earlier Hot Rod Magazine.
I have heard some people telling they sometimes had to take the shields off the axle and let them lay down flat while bleeding. Doesn't sound right to me, would make a lot of stress on the brake tubings..

Is Vacuum bleeding the way to go, or doesn't it make much difference?
Any comments appreciated!

JoeWay · 07-03-2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordgarage

...It was no problem to pressure bleed, one cylinder at a time...[/IMG]

If you say it, I believe it, Vince, but your experience is unusual. Most people have Steinar's problem, with the top half of the cylinder remaining full of air that has no incentive to go the bottom of the cylinder, no matter how much pressure or vacuum is applied.

Removing the backing plates temporarily is one solution. Another slightly easier but potentially messier solution is to remove the forward shoe (on the right in Vince's photo since it is upside down). Pull the dust boot and piston, and allow the seal to come out of the bore at a slight angle so there is a small gap at the top. Have a helper SLOWLY AND GENTLY work the pedal to evacuate air, pushing the seal back into full contact during the pedal return stroke to prevent sucking air back into the cylinder.

Joe

Steinar · 07-03-2011, 10:40 AM

Very interesting! That seems to be the exact same setup! But I've been pouring 3 liters with brake fluid through the system, no air bobbles to see, but after finished bleeding, always the same, first pedal goes to the floor. The next jump on the pedal gives a rock solid one. My new mastercylinder looks pretty much the same as the old one, and this is a very common mastercylinder, used on a whole lot of different American built cars, among them also Ford. I was told. I know the problem could occur if the piston inside was not able to move enough fluid, but it doesn't seem to be any differences between them..

Patrick L. · 07-03-2011, 10:41 AM

An old trick to bleed a cylinder with a broken bleeder screw is to just remove the outer dust shield and pop out the piston.. Then slip a about a .010" feeler strip over the top side of the cup/seal.. Wait for the fluid to start running clear and then button it back up..

mrtexas · 07-03-2011, 10:59 AM

If it were me I'd spend about an hour and put the wheel cylinders on top, only about 3 minor mods involved.

http://members.fortunecity.com/pjsau...ulicBrakes.htm

Bob C · 07-03-2011, 11:20 AM

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Could you swap the wheel cylinders to the opposite sides, that way the line
would be going in the bottom and the bleeder would be on the top.

Steinar · 07-03-2011, 11:28 AM

Bob C

That was exactly what I had in mind this morning. I took everything apart, just to discover they were not symetrical, it didn't work out..
- Great minds think alike!

BillLee/Chandler, TX · 07-03-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinar

Bob C

That was exactly what I had in mind this morning. I took everything apart, just to discover they were not symetrical, it didn't work out..
- Great minds think alike!

If you're willing to do a bit of modification to the backing plate, they will swap from side-to-side.

Steinar · 07-03-2011, 01:46 PM

Fordgarage, that is how I did it. But I can assure you I've been doing more than a couple of rounds around the car. I did put almost a gallon with new fresh fluid through the system. It is no leak to see. No bubbles visible when bleeding, two weeks since last time I saw one! I'm afraid the rear wheelcylinders are holding the air in the top of the chamber inside the cylinder. Air always want to go up, when in fluid, and pressurebleeding doesn't seem to change that. I had hoped vacuum bleeding maybe would have turned out better, sucking out the air together with more fluid coming down the tube. But I think I have learned here that this construction maybe is not the best one. It's kind a hard to fight the laws of nature. I don't know how they bled this thing when it was built, maybe they just, like you, had more luck than what I have. Or maybe they turned the car upside down, what do I know

I will think about what to do over the night, right now I feel very attracted to mrtexas' ideas, even though I also feel pretty sure JoeWays prescription also would work out fine. But like he said, a bit more messy. In the long run, I think I probably would be happier with the cylinder on top. Gives very easy maintenance.

Thanks to all of you! For good ideas and pictures!
I'm very impressed how fast things are working out here!

Steinar

Steinar · 07-03-2011, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillLee/Chandler, TX

If you're willing to do a bit of modification to the backing plate, they will swap from side-to-side.

Yes, I know, I was very close to start doing that earlier today, when I decided to first give it a try at Fordbarn. But the way mrtexas does it seems to be a easier way out, less modifications necessary, and when all comes to all, I don't really need to have'em down there. They just happened to be down there when I bought the car..

Patrick L. · 07-03-2011, 01:53 PM

There is a real easy way to bleed that monster,, but apparently.............

mrtexas · 07-03-2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinar

Yes, I know, I was very close to start doing that earlier today, when I decided to first give it a try at Fordbarn. But the way mrtexas does it seems to be a easier way out, less modifications necessary, and when all comes to all, I don't really need to have'em down there. They just happened to be down there when I bought the car..

Ideas actually came from Dave Wilton, former owner MT Car Products.

Steinar · 07-03-2011, 03:53 PM

Interesting, I've also been thinking about that, let the air go out through the line-nut connection. But since this one is located about at the middele of the chamber, I was thinking I would do better, but not fully good.
I also liked the upsidedown construction in the way it was a direct bolt on, not in need of any modifications. Generally I don't like to cut in old car parts and change them unless I have to.
But I have now been working on this thing for two weeks with no progress. Could it be that my cylinders are a bit different on the inside, making them more difficult to bleed when upside down? Bought them at SoCalSpeed Shop, but they were imports...?

Steinar · 07-03-2011, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordgarage

I have bled these upside down brake cylinders on a few occasions with absolutely no difficulty, so I am having a hard time understanding what might be fighting you, other than an air leak elsewhere.

Did you always have to bleed them through the line-connection, or was this not typical when bleeding those upsidedown cylinders?

Tony S,Fl. · 07-03-2011, 04:15 PM

An old mechanic told me his proceedure it is as Vince mentioned. I use a squirt oil can the type with the long tube. Force a clear plastic tube unto the long tube. Push the other end onto the bleeder Take the cap off the master cylinder. Loosen the bleeder and pump away. Works for me. Also use silicone brake fluid. My cylinders don't freeze up anymore. Tony

JoeWay · 07-03-2011, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinar

...The next jump on the pedal gives a rock solid one.

If you get a good firm pedal on the second pump, then you probably have an adjustment problem rather than an air problem. The old Lockheed brakes can be tricky to get adjusted properly.

Joe

ddweave · 07-03-2011, 08:13 PM

I agree with JoeWay. If you get a hard pedal on the second pump, there's no air in the cylinders. Air makes the pedal spongy - every time you press it. You need to spend more time adjusting the brakes.

Tom Wesenberg · 07-04-2011, 01:20 AM

I've done it several times exactly the way JoeWay suggests in #3. Anytime I get a car with a frozen bleeder and can't get the bleeder free, I also do it this way.

Patrick L. · 07-04-2011, 05:03 AM

Maybe I didn't make my statement very clear, I guess thats a problem I have.. All you have to do is remove one wheel cylinder piston leaving the cup in place.. Insert a thin [about .010"] feeler strip between the top/high side of the cup and cylinder bore.. Walk away for awhile and residual line pressure will fill the cylinder and push the air past the feeler strip.. Once the fluid starts running out of the cylinder, down the backing plate and all over the garage floor, the cylinder is bled and the piston can be re-installed..
However, as has been said, the shoes should be somewhere near proper adjustment or the first pump of the pedal will just be used to push the shoes 'way out' in an attempt to find the drums.. If the pedal is 'hard and firm' then the air has been removed..

Charlie Stephens · 07-04-2011, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinar

Very interesting! That seems to be the exact same setup! But I've been pouring 3 liters with brake fluid through the system, no air bobbles to see, but after finished bleeding, always the same, first pedal goes to the floor. The next jump on the pedal gives a rock solid one. My new mastercylinder looks pretty much the same as the old one, and this is a very common mastercylinder, used on a whole lot of different American built cars, among them also Ford. I was told. I know the problem could occur if the piston inside was not able to move enough fluid, but it doesn't seem to be any differences between them..

My guess is that your problem is because your master cylinder piston is too small for the wheel cylinders. Check the diameter. Since you are not running a dual master cylinder why didn't you use the '39 to '48 master cylinder?

Charlie Stephens

Steinar · 07-04-2011, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

My guess is that your problem is because your master cylinder piston is too small for the wheel cylinders. Check the diameter. Since you are not running a dual master cylinder why didn't you use the '39 to '48 master cylinder?

Charlie Stephens

I didn't think a lot when ordering new parts, I just sent a picture and a description of what I had, and this was what they come up with. I was thinking this would be an easy fix, since everything were already set up for a mastercylinder looking like this one. The parts supplier also told me this was a very common mc, found on a whole lot of older US built cars, so to me it sounded about right.. I'll go and double check the piston diameter after dinner.

Steinar · 07-04-2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWay

If you get a good firm pedal on the second pump, then you probably have an adjustment problem rather than an air problem. The old Lockheed brakes can be tricky to get adjusted properly.

Joe

They are adjusted, brakelinings are very close to the drum, I can feel and hear they are in touch with the drum.

I have also adjusted them until they locked all the wheels, same thing happens, but pedal doesn't go all the way to the floor then, but still too deep on the first jump after bleeding.

Steinar · 07-04-2011, 11:19 AM

I'll give it an other try, will put things back into place and bleed it like Patrick L / JoeWay suggest. If no air, it might be the mc as Charlie Stephens indicates. I'll be back when I know more. Until then, thanks to all!

Mike · 07-04-2011, 11:32 AM

I had the same problem on a 30 roadster and I bled the rear brakes just as Pat L suggusted, it works

mike

Charlie Stephens · 07-04-2011, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinar

I didn't think a lot when ordering new parts, I just sent a picture and a description of what I had, and this was what they come up with. I was thinking this would be an easy fix, since everything were already set up for a mastercylinder looking like this one. The parts supplier also told me this was a very common mc, found on a whole lot of older US built cars, so to me it sounded about right.. I'll go and double check the piston diameter after dinner.

The supplier was probably not thinking about the early Fords when he said "older US built cars". Check out the diameter of the early Ford cylinders compared to the "older US built cars" he was talking about.

Charlie Stephens

JoeWay · 07-04-2011, 01:30 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinar

They are adjusted, brakelinings are very close to the drum, I can feel and hear they are in touch with the drum.

I have also adjusted them until they locked all the wheels, same thing happens, but pedal doesn't go all the way to the floor then, but still too deep on the first jump after bleeding.

If you haven't been through the full routine, it's still possible that you have the heel or toe adjusted properly but not the other end, on any individual shoe. Below is some information from the 1953 MOTOR'S Repair Manual on the adjustment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

The supplier was probably not thinking about the early Fords when he said "older US built cars". Check out the diameter of the early Ford cylinders compared to the "older US built cars" he was talking about.

Charlie Stephens

By far the most common size master in older US cars is 1" bore. The 1939-48 Ford master is 1-1/6" bore. That's only about 13% difference in diameter, which would result in a slightly low pedal but not NO pedal, assuming the shoes are correctly adjusted.

I see the scanned images I attached have been reduced in resolution to the point they are barely readable. Here are links to the full-resolution scans:

LockheedAdjust1.jpg

LockheedAdjust2.jpg

Joe

Steinar · 07-04-2011, 04:18 PM

Problems don't usually show up alone, do they? When I took brake parts apart at rear axle, I clamped on a special tool on the flexible tube between the mastercylinder and the front/rear connection, to avoid fluid from leaking out while parts were apart. When I had put everything back in place, I forgot to take off this clamp when we started to bleed the system again. Not much fluid come out at the rear wheel even though my helper was stepping on the pedal as hard as she could. I then remembered the clamp, took it off, but since then the pedal is stuck, does hardly move at all, no fluid is coming through the system. I guess the flexible tube got damaged, so I took it out. I could easily blow through it. So, I guess what happened is, something loosened from the inside of this not so new tubing, and found its way down into the system somewhere else, and clogged it. So I have now one more problem I'll have to look into. But tomorrow I have to prepare for my daughters birthdayparty, so probably won't be much more time for the A until end of week.

But one more question: Is it necessary to have a flexible connection between the mastercylinder on the firewall and the rest of the tubings on the chassis, or could I go with steel tubing all the way from the mc to the wheels? Does the frame twist as much under driving that it could cause stress to the brake tubes if all steel?

And, yes, I measured the mc, they're both one inch diameter.

Steinar · 07-04-2011, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWay

If you haven't been through the full routine, it's still possible that you have the heel or toe adjusted properly but not the other end, on any individual shoe. Below is some information from the 1953 MOTOR'S Repair Manual on the adjustment.

Joe

Thanks for good info, but does this apply to my brakes? They are fixed at the opposite end of the cylinders, so I cannot see how I can do any adjustment else from turning the two adjustment bolts on the back side of the shields?

Charlie Stephens · 07-04-2011, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWay

By far the most common size master in older US cars is 1" bore. The 1939-48 Ford master is 1-1/6" bore. That's only about 13% difference in diameter, which would result in a slightly low pedal but not NO pedal, assuming the shoes are correctly adjusted.

Joe

I am surprised the diameter is 1 1/6. I would have expected 1 1/8 and assume you made a typo since you say 13% difference on the diameter. The volume is a function of the area (times the distance pushed) which is about a 27% difference. I can't definitely say this is your entire problem but I feel it combined with leverage of your pedal design would be a good place to start looking.

Charlie Stephens

JoeWay · 07-04-2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I am surprised the diameter is 1 1/6. I would have expected 1 1/8 and assume you made a typo since you say 13% difference on the diameter. The volume is a function of the area (times the distance pushed) which is about a 27% difference. I can't definitely say this is your entire problem but I feel it combined with leverage of your pedal design would be a good place to start looking.

Charlie Stephens

Charlie,

You have a good feel for this, obviously, and about 27% would be correct for 1-1/8" vs. 1", but the '39-'48 Ford car and light truck master is indeed 1-1/16". I've put brass sleeves in several hundred of them.

Depending on whether you calculate up or down, the difference between 1" and 1-1/16" is about 11% or 13%. Depending on the pedal ratio, that would probably be about 1" to 1-1/2"of pedal travel--more travel for the smaller cylinder, as you say.

I'd have to check my books before I said for sure, but off the top of my head the first 1-1/8" Ford cylinder was used in mid-'50s cars with power brakes.

Joe

JoeWay · 07-04-2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinar

Thanks for good info, but does this apply to my brakes? They are fixed at the opposite end of the cylinders, so I cannot see how I can do any adjustment else from turning the two adjustment bolts on the back side of the shields?

Sorry--you said your setup was the same as Vince's in reply #2. He shows the earlier style brakes, to which the MOTOR'S Manual refers as "Lockheed [1]". This setup has two eccentric anchors, one for each shoe.

You must have the later brakes, called in MOTOR'S "Lockheed [3]", with a single eccentric anchor at the bottom (or for you, the top since your backing plates are upside down). Here are scans of the adjustment procedure. The main difference is that the single eccentric anchor is adjusted for the front shoe only (again, as shown in Vince's photo the rear shoe).

If the heel of the forward shoe is not adjusted correctly, you will lose considerable pedal travel as the wheel cylinder tries to push the shoe into contact with the drum--even if the toes of the shoes, controlled by the cams at the sides of the backing plate, seem to be properly adjusted.

Joe

LockheedAdjust3.jpg

LockheedAdjust4.jpg

John Kuhnast · 07-04-2011, 06:51 PM

Just went through the same problem as you. I switched the cylinders so that bleader is on top. cylinder still on bottom of backing plate. This requires grindint the hole so that the bolts line up with the cilinder. I ground the big hole so that the bolt holes lined up this left a quarter moon shaped hole on the bottom which has not been a problem. I used a master cylinder from a 1967 mustang. We removed the rear line and pluged the master. We then were able tobleed the front brakes. Keep bleeding even when you think you got all the air.WE then hooked up the rear and bleed them. When you bleed rear be very gental when you pump so as not to upsead the front. We then adjusted the brakes. After about 100 miles we bled the front and back with disconecting anything but be very gentle when you pump so as not pumpair from frotn to back and vice versa.We know have very good brakes.Much better than expeced. John

1931 flamingo · 07-04-2011, 07:04 PM

Steinar: On post #31 you mention that M/Cyl is on firewall. If so what kind? Are you utilizing "hanging" pedals? As I read your post I assumed (I know....) that you had a 39-48 M/Cyl mounted under the floor. Not that this has any real thing to do with your bleeding problem, but I think you could get away w/out a "rubber" connection to the frame at this point. When I did my 32 with chev dual resivoir m/cyl (hyd brakes and clutch) I only used a pre-formed tube for the clutch connection, not the brakes.
Paul in CT

Charlie Stephens · 07-04-2011, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWay

Charlie,

You have a good feel for this, obviously, and about 27% would be correct for 1-1/8" vs. 1", but the '39-'48 Ford car and light truck master is indeed 1-1/16". I've put brass sleeves in several hundred of them.

Depending on whether you calculate up or down, the difference between 1" and 1-1/16" is about 11% or 13%. Depending on the pedal ratio, that would probably be about 1" to 1-1/2"of pedal travel--more travel for the smaller cylinder, as you say.

I'd have to check my books before I said for sure, but off the top of my head the first 1-1/8" Ford cylinder was used in mid-'50s cars with power brakes.

Joe

Joe,

I think I am going to back out of this discussion since I don't have access to the data I need. Even if I looked up the early Ford (I am sure you are right) I still don't know what the other master cylinder is from.

Charlie Stephens

JoeWay · 07-04-2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Joe,

I think I am going to back out of this discussion since I don't have access to the data I need. Even if I looked up the early Ford (I am sure you are right) I still don't know what the other master cylinder is from.

Charlie Stephens

Charlie, Steinar says both his old and new cylinders are 1" bore. I'm not sure how it matters what the application was for the new one? It's the bore area that determines the hydraulic ratio, as you've said.

If you're wondering about my bona fides, check the URL in my signature.

Joe

P. S. I shouldn't have said I've sleeved "several hundred" of the early Ford cylinders. On reflection, I think probably about 100 is a better number.

Charlie Stephens · 07-04-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWay

Charlie, Steinar says both his old and new cylinders are 1" bore. I'm not sure how it matters what the application was for the new one? It's the bore area that determines the hydraulic ratio, as you've said.

If you're wondering about my bona fides, check the URL in my signature.

Joe

P. S. I shouldn't have said I've sleeved "several hundred" of the early Ford cylinders. On reflection, I think probably about 100 is a better number.

Sorry I missed the part about the cylinder being a one inch bore. The application is not important, I was just trying to find a trail to the diameter. To change the topic is that a copper line with a compression fitting coming out of the master cylinder? Both are a definite "no no" on brake systems. Still open is the question about leverage in the mechanical linkage.

Charlie Stephens

JoeWay · 07-05-2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Sorry I missed the part about the cylinder being a one inch bore. The application is not important, I was just trying to find a trail to the diameter.

Charlie Stephens

Aha. I understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

To change the topic is that a copper line with a compression fitting coming out of the master cylinder? Both are a definite "no no" on brake systems. Still open is the question about leverage in the mechanical linkage.

Charlie Stephens

I'm pretty sure you're correct about the copper line. It does not have the greyish tint associated with Cunifer steel-alloyed brake line, and I think this was mentioned back when Steinar first posted his photos. Hardware store compression fittings are typically rated in the 300psi range for the 1/4" size. That's about half the pressure that can be expected in a system like this during a hard application.

I don't recall whether Steinar said his system was functioning acceptably in terms of pedal travel and effort required when he started rebuilding it. If it was, then the mechanical ratio must have been OK.

Joe

V4F · 08-05-2012, 02:31 PM

not to steal the thread , but im having major problems bleeding mine . 1931 ford coupe , 1942 hyd brakes . used a vaccum bleeder , no luck . used the helper old style bleeding ... seems there is no air , but the pedal still goes to the floor . it is firmer than when i started & when pumped it does activate the brakes , but no good pedal . any ideas appreciated . thanks .. steve

miss victoria · 08-05-2012, 02:45 PM

Years ago Dave Wilton (mt products) master brake guy, posted on upside down backing plates as i recall it was not recommended?

Keith True · 08-05-2012, 04:44 PM

One thing you said that stands out at me,the second pump of the pedal is rock hard.Air=sponge.Liquid=rock.Air compresses,liquid does not.If the pedal gets hard,not spongy,I would call it a travel problem too.

JoeWay · 08-05-2012, 04:57 PM

This thread is more than a year old. I suspect Steinar solved his problems long ago.

Joe

Glenn C. · 08-05-2012, 06:56 PM

A long way back in trade school we taught to adjust the shoes to drum first on all wheels to ensure minimum travel of the brake shoes. Perfect setting was not required at that time. With a good helper....it is now time for bleeding the brakes.
I use a glass jar 1/2 filled with the appropriate clean brake fluid, and a clear piece of plastic tubing. Start your bleeding proceedure at the closest wheel to the master cylinder. With the plastic tubing attached to the wheel cylinder bleeder and the other end submersed into the fluid in the jar, loosen of the bleed screw while instructing your helper to pump the pedal. When you have received a good stream of fluid into the jar with no air bubbles, have your helper depress the pedal down to about half way of travel....stop....and hold. while you tighten the bleed screw without lifting the tubing from the fluid. Sometimes you may have to empty the bleed jar a couple of times, but remember to close the bleed screw each time you remove the bleed jar from the tubing end.
Proceed to the wheel that is next closest to the master cylinder and repeat the same proceedure. Follow the same proceedure for the third closest wheel and finally the last. You should have a firm pedal if everything is tight. Make final adjustment of the brakes.

Chris Haynes · 08-05-2012, 08:04 PM

I use a pump oil can and a piece of rubber hose the reverse bleed brakes. Put the hose on the bleeder valve. Open the valve and pump fresh fluid in till there are no bubbles in the master cylinder. Of course two sets of eyes are needed.

V4F · 08-05-2012, 08:22 PM

glenn c.
wow that is totally opposite from most ideas . but i sure can see how it would work !
learn something every day . thanks

columbiA · 08-06-2012, 12:31 AM

I was taught to bleed brakes in the following order-- RR,LR,RF & LF.The 39-41 brakes have adjustable anchor pins-the 42-48 are not.Adjust the brakes as best you can before bleeding them.You can switch the cyls side to side to put the larger bore to the front & get bleeder on top or you can put the cyls on top with minor mod to backing plate & filing or grinding a groove in spring perch to allow the brake line to fit WC.You need a flex line from MC to V shaped steel lines on front of DS hsg as there is movement every time R E moves up & down.

John Kuhnast · 08-06-2012, 07:04 AM

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I had mine mounted as per the photo with the bleeder on the bottom. Grind the hole in the backing plate so you can switch side to side with the bleeder on top. Made a big improvement on mine.ALso use a dule master for safty. We had to remove the front line on the dule master and install a plug to bleed the rear then install front line and bleed that. Before we did that we kept adding fluid and bleeding. The air would keep going back and forth front to back. Front and back in the master are not totaly indebendet. Do you have a master with a built in check valve or do you need to add a valve?

V4F · 08-06-2012, 07:32 AM

i have a residual valve in line . my fronts are on top , my rears are 20* OC . thanks

rally 1 · 08-06-2012, 06:58 PM

Just went through the same issue using inverted rear backing plates on my A.
The problem turned out to be "insufficient master cylinder piston travel".
The advertised pedal mechanism I purchased wasn't even close to having the 1 1/2" stroke required for my master cylinder.
As soon as I changed the lever length and modified the pushrod, instant pressure.

I bled the rear cylinders by cracking the line at the cylinder.

Ken

V4F · 08-06-2012, 08:00 PM

ken , i just spent all day rechecking every thing .

i found that i did not have enough travel also !! what a deal this has been . thank you for confirming my thoughts . gonna re-design my set up tommorow .
i did find some little things i missed the first time , so it turned out to be well spent time .

*** thank you all for your great help . ill let you know how it comes out ... steve

columbiA · 08-06-2012, 10:53 PM

If you had rebuilt mechanicals with Teds Floaters you would have better brakes with less pedal pressure than the old Wagner hydraulics.

sturgis 39 · 08-07-2012, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve norcal

not to steal the thread , but im having major problems bleeding mine . 1931 ford coupe , 1942 hyd brakes . used a vaccum bleeder , no luck . used the helper old style bleeding ... seems there is no air , but the pedal still goes to the floor . it is firmer than when i started & when pumped it does activate the brakes , but no good pedal . any ideas appreciated . thanks .. steve

Adjust the brake shoes. You shoes are probably to far from the drums.

V4F · 08-07-2012, 08:17 AM

If you had rebuilt mechanicals with Teds Floaters you would have better brakes with less pedal pressure than the old Wagner hydraulics.

i am a firm believer in teds kits . have used them for like 10 yrs . i put a s-10 5 speed in my coupe & it is in the way of the rod from the pedal . revamped but lost leverage . thus the hyd . ............... thanks .. steve

got teds kit 4 sale !

V4F · 08-07-2012, 02:15 PM

well im very close now . drove it today . a little fine tuning & ill be done with that !
thanks to all that helped me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the last problem was leverage from the pedal to the mc ................. steve

d.j. moordigian · 08-07-2012, 03:17 PM

Swap the cylinders and modify the backing plates, then it's a done deal....

07-03-2011, 08:43 AM	#1
Steinar Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Norway Posts: 66	Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Hi! I know my A should not have had hydraulic brakes, but I also know my A is not the only one with this setup. But one thing is a bit special on mine, instead of modifying the rear 46 - 48 brake shields, they are mounted up side down. Which make them a direct bolt on. This is not a result of my brain work, I just bought it this way, and now I am trying to restore the whole system to bring the car back out on to the road again, after maybe as much as 20 years standing still. Well, I put everything back in place, new master and new wheel cylinders. But I cannot get the air out of the system. I've been bench bleeding the master, no sign of air there. So I feel pretty sure the problem is my rear cylinders, since bleeder screw is now at the bottom of the wheel cylinder, not at the top where it obviously should have been. So my question is, would a vacuum bleeding system be able to suck this air out, or should I go the hard way and do some cutting and welding mods to the brake shields? I sure hope that would not be necessary, the car has been run with this setup earlier. I also read a comment, I think on H.A.M.B somewhere, where this setup was described in an earlier Hot Rod Magazine. I have heard some people telling they sometimes had to take the shields off the axle and let them lay down flat while bleeding. Doesn't sound right to me, would make a lot of stress on the brake tubings.. Is Vacuum bleeding the way to go, or doesn't it make much difference? Any comments appreciated! Last edited by Steinar; 07-03-2011 at 09:02 AM.

07-03-2011, 10:41 AM	#4
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? An old trick to bleed a cylinder with a broken bleeder screw is to just remove the outer dust shield and pop out the piston.. Then slip a about a .010" feeler strip over the top side of the cup/seal.. Wait for the fluid to start running clear and then button it back up..

07-03-2011, 10:59 AM	#5
mrtexas Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sugar Land, TX Posts: 4,395	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? If it were me I'd spend about an hour and put the wheel cylinders on top, only about 3 minor mods involved. http://members.fortunecity.com/pjsau...ulicBrakes.htm

07-03-2011, 11:20 AM	#6
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,747	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Could you swap the wheel cylinders to the opposite sides, that way the line would be going in the bottom and the bleeder would be on the top.

07-03-2011, 11:28 AM	#7
Steinar Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Norway Posts: 66	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Bob C That was exactly what I had in mind this morning. I took everything apart, just to discover they were not symetrical, it didn't work out.. - Great minds think alike!

07-03-2011, 10:40 AM	#3
Steinar Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Norway Posts: 66	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Very interesting! That seems to be the exact same setup! But I've been pouring 3 liters with brake fluid through the system, no air bobbles to see, but after finished bleeding, always the same, first pedal goes to the floor. The next jump on the pedal gives a rock solid one. My new mastercylinder looks pretty much the same as the old one, and this is a very common mastercylinder, used on a whole lot of different American built cars, among them also Ford. I was told. I know the problem could occur if the piston inside was not able to move enough fluid, but it doesn't seem to be any differences between them..

07-03-2011, 01:46 PM	#9
Steinar Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Norway Posts: 66	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Fordgarage, that is how I did it. But I can assure you I've been doing more than a couple of rounds around the car. I did put almost a gallon with new fresh fluid through the system. It is no leak to see. No bubbles visible when bleeding, two weeks since last time I saw one! I'm afraid the rear wheelcylinders are holding the air in the top of the chamber inside the cylinder. Air always want to go up, when in fluid, and pressurebleeding doesn't seem to change that. I had hoped vacuum bleeding maybe would have turned out better, sucking out the air together with more fluid coming down the tube. But I think I have learned here that this construction maybe is not the best one. It's kind a hard to fight the laws of nature. I don't know how they bled this thing when it was built, maybe they just, like you, had more luck than what I have. Or maybe they turned the car upside down, what do I know I will think about what to do over the night, right now I feel very attracted to mrtexas' ideas, even though I also feel pretty sure JoeWays prescription also would work out fine. But like he said, a bit more messy. In the long run, I think I probably would be happier with the cylinder on top. Gives very easy maintenance. Thanks to all of you! For good ideas and pictures! I'm very impressed how fast things are working out here! Steinar

07-03-2011, 01:53 PM	#11
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? There is a real easy way to bleed that monster,, but apparently.............

07-03-2011, 03:53 PM	#13
Steinar Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Norway Posts: 66	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Interesting, I've also been thinking about that, let the air go out through the line-nut connection. But since this one is located about at the middele of the chamber, I was thinking I would do better, but not fully good. I also liked the upsidedown construction in the way it was a direct bolt on, not in need of any modifications. Generally I don't like to cut in old car parts and change them unless I have to. But I have now been working on this thing for two weeks with no progress. Could it be that my cylinders are a bit different on the inside, making them more difficult to bleed when upside down? Bought them at SoCalSpeed Shop, but they were imports...? Last edited by Steinar; 07-03-2011 at 04:02 PM.

07-03-2011, 04:15 PM	#15
Tony S,Fl. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pompano Beach, Fl. Posts: 226	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? An old mechanic told me his proceedure it is as Vince mentioned. I use a squirt oil can the type with the long tube. Force a clear plastic tube unto the long tube. Push the other end onto the bleeder Take the cap off the master cylinder. Loosen the bleeder and pump away. Works for me. Also use silicone brake fluid. My cylinders don't freeze up anymore. Tony

07-03-2011, 08:13 PM	#17
ddweave Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Waterloo, IL Posts: 81	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? I agree with JoeWay. If you get a hard pedal on the second pump, there's no air in the cylinders. Air makes the pedal spongy - every time you press it. You need to spend more time adjusting the brakes. __________________ Doug in Waterloo

07-04-2011, 01:20 AM	#18
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? I've done it several times exactly the way JoeWay suggests in #3. Anytime I get a car with a frozen bleeder and can't get the bleeder free, I also do it this way.

07-04-2011, 05:03 AM	#19
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Maybe I didn't make my statement very clear, I guess thats a problem I have.. All you have to do is remove one wheel cylinder piston leaving the cup in place.. Insert a thin [about .010"] feeler strip between the top/high side of the cup and cylinder bore.. Walk away for awhile and residual line pressure will fill the cylinder and push the air past the feeler strip.. Once the fluid starts running out of the cylinder, down the backing plate and all over the garage floor, the cylinder is bled and the piston can be re-installed.. However, as has been said, the shoes should be somewhere near proper adjustment or the first pump of the pedal will just be used to push the shoes 'way out' in an attempt to find the drums.. If the pedal is 'hard and firm' then the air has been removed..

07-04-2011, 11:19 AM	#23
Steinar Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Norway Posts: 66	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? I'll give it an other try, will put things back into place and bleed it like Patrick L / JoeWay suggest. If no air, it might be the mc as Charlie Stephens indicates. I'll be back when I know more. Until then, thanks to all! Last edited by Steinar; 07-04-2011 at 12:20 PM.

07-04-2011, 11:32 AM	#24
Mike Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ASTON, PA. Posts: 725	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? I had the same problem on a 30 roadster and I bled the rear brakes just as Pat L suggusted, it works mike

07-04-2011, 04:18 PM	#27
Steinar Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Norway Posts: 66	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Problems don't usually show up alone, do they? When I took brake parts apart at rear axle, I clamped on a special tool on the flexible tube between the mastercylinder and the front/rear connection, to avoid fluid from leaking out while parts were apart. When I had put everything back in place, I forgot to take off this clamp when we started to bleed the system again. Not much fluid come out at the rear wheel even though my helper was stepping on the pedal as hard as she could. I then remembered the clamp, took it off, but since then the pedal is stuck, does hardly move at all, no fluid is coming through the system. I guess the flexible tube got damaged, so I took it out. I could easily blow through it. So, I guess what happened is, something loosened from the inside of this not so new tubing, and found its way down into the system somewhere else, and clogged it. So I have now one more problem I'll have to look into. But tomorrow I have to prepare for my daughters birthdayparty, so probably won't be much more time for the A until end of week. But one more question: Is it necessary to have a flexible connection between the mastercylinder on the firewall and the rest of the tubings on the chassis, or could I go with steel tubing all the way from the mc to the wheels? Does the frame twist as much under driving that it could cause stress to the brake tubes if all steel? And, yes, I measured the mc, they're both one inch diameter.

07-04-2011, 06:51 PM	#32
John Kuhnast Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 564	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Just went through the same problem as you. I switched the cylinders so that bleader is on top. cylinder still on bottom of backing plate. This requires grindint the hole so that the bolts line up with the cilinder. I ground the big hole so that the bolt holes lined up this left a quarter moon shaped hole on the bottom which has not been a problem. I used a master cylinder from a 1967 mustang. We removed the rear line and pluged the master. We then were able tobleed the front brakes. Keep bleeding even when you think you got all the air.WE then hooked up the rear and bleed them. When you bleed rear be very gental when you pump so as not to upsead the front. We then adjusted the brakes. After about 100 miles we bled the front and back with disconecting anything but be very gentle when you pump so as not pumpair from frotn to back and vice versa.We know have very good brakes.Much better than expeced. John

07-04-2011, 07:04 PM	#33
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Steinar: On post #31 you mention that M/Cyl is on firewall. If so what kind? Are you utilizing "hanging" pedals? As I read your post I assumed (I know....) that you had a 39-48 M/Cyl mounted under the floor. Not that this has any real thing to do with your bleeding problem, but I think you could get away w/out a "rubber" connection to the frame at this point. When I did my 32 with chev dual resivoir m/cyl (hyd brakes and clutch) I only used a pre-formed tube for the clutch connection, not the brakes. Paul in CT

08-05-2012, 02:31 PM	#38
V4F Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ca. Posts: 2,522	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? not to steal the thread , but im having major problems bleeding mine . 1931 ford coupe , 1942 hyd brakes . used a vaccum bleeder , no luck . used the helper old style bleeding ... seems there is no air , but the pedal still goes to the floor . it is firmer than when i started & when pumped it does activate the brakes , but no good pedal . any ideas appreciated . thanks .. steve __________________ V4f

08-05-2012, 02:45 PM	#39
miss victoria Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 310	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Years ago Dave Wilton (mt products) master brake guy, posted on upside down backing plates as i recall it was not recommended?

08-05-2012, 04:44 PM	#40
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 2,987	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? One thing you said that stands out at me,the second pump of the pedal is rock hard.Air=sponge.Liquid=rock.Air compresses,liquid does not.If the pedal gets hard,not spongy,I would call it a travel problem too.

08-05-2012, 04:57 PM	#41
JoeWay Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Quincy CA Posts: 752	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? This thread is more than a year old. I suspect Steinar solved his problems long ago. Joe __________________ 1929 Tudor since 1962 Feather River A's

08-05-2012, 06:56 PM	#42
Glenn C. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Didsbury Alberta Posts: 838	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? A long way back in trade school we taught to adjust the shoes to drum first on all wheels to ensure minimum travel of the brake shoes. Perfect setting was not required at that time. With a good helper....it is now time for bleeding the brakes. I use a glass jar 1/2 filled with the appropriate clean brake fluid, and a clear piece of plastic tubing. Start your bleeding proceedure at the closest wheel to the master cylinder. With the plastic tubing attached to the wheel cylinder bleeder and the other end submersed into the fluid in the jar, loosen of the bleed screw while instructing your helper to pump the pedal. When you have received a good stream of fluid into the jar with no air bubbles, have your helper depress the pedal down to about half way of travel....stop....and hold. while you tighten the bleed screw without lifting the tubing from the fluid. Sometimes you may have to empty the bleed jar a couple of times, but remember to close the bleed screw each time you remove the bleed jar from the tubing end. Proceed to the wheel that is next closest to the master cylinder and repeat the same proceedure. Follow the same proceedure for the third closest wheel and finally the last. You should have a firm pedal if everything is tight. Make final adjustment of the brakes.

08-05-2012, 08:04 PM	#43
Chris Haynes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Camarillo, CA and Pine Grove, CA Posts: 2,832	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? I use a pump oil can and a piece of rubber hose the reverse bleed brakes. Put the hose on the bleeder valve. Open the valve and pump fresh fluid in till there are no bubbles in the master cylinder. Of course two sets of eyes are needed. __________________ 1921 Runabout 1930 Tudor Early 1930 AA Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?

08-05-2012, 08:22 PM	#44
V4F Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ca. Posts: 2,522	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? glenn c. wow that is totally opposite from most ideas . but i sure can see how it would work ! learn something every day . thanks __________________ V4f

08-06-2012, 12:31 AM	#45
columbiA Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 1,746	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? I was taught to bleed brakes in the following order-- RR,LR,RF & LF.The 39-41 brakes have adjustable anchor pins-the 42-48 are not.Adjust the brakes as best you can before bleeding them.You can switch the cyls side to side to put the larger bore to the front & get bleeder on top or you can put the cyls on top with minor mod to backing plate & filing or grinding a groove in spring perch to allow the brake line to fit WC.You need a flex line from MC to V shaped steel lines on front of DS hsg as there is movement every time R E moves up & down.

08-06-2012, 07:04 AM	#46
John Kuhnast Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 564	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I had mine mounted as per the photo with the bleeder on the bottom. Grind the hole in the backing plate so you can switch side to side with the bleeder on top. Made a big improvement on mine.ALso use a dule master for safty. We had to remove the front line on the dule master and install a plug to bleed the rear then install front line and bleed that. Before we did that we kept adding fluid and bleeding. The air would keep going back and forth front to back. Front and back in the master are not totaly indebendet. Do you have a master with a built in check valve or do you need to add a valve?

08-06-2012, 07:32 AM	#47
V4F Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ca. Posts: 2,522	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? i have a residual valve in line . my fronts are on top , my rears are 20* OC . thanks __________________ V4f

08-06-2012, 06:58 PM	#48
rally 1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 171	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Just went through the same issue using inverted rear backing plates on my A. The problem turned out to be "insufficient master cylinder piston travel". The advertised pedal mechanism I purchased wasn't even close to having the 1 1/2" stroke required for my master cylinder. As soon as I changed the lever length and modified the pushrod, instant pressure. I bled the rear cylinders by cracking the line at the cylinder. Ken

08-06-2012, 08:00 PM	#49
V4F Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ca. Posts: 2,522	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? ken , i just spent all day rechecking every thing . i found that i did not have enough travel also !! what a deal this has been . thank you for confirming my thoughts . gonna re-design my set up tommorow . i did find some little things i missed the first time , so it turned out to be well spent time . * thank you all for your great help . ill let you know how it comes out ... steve __________________ V4f**

08-06-2012, 10:53 PM	#50
columbiA Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 1,746	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? If you had rebuilt mechanicals with Teds Floaters you would have better brakes with less pedal pressure than the old Wagner hydraulics.

08-07-2012, 08:17 AM	#52
V4F Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ca. Posts: 2,522	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? If you had rebuilt mechanicals with Teds Floaters you would have better brakes with less pedal pressure than the old Wagner hydraulics. i am a firm believer in teds kits . have used them for like 10 yrs . i put a s-10 5 speed in my coupe & it is in the way of the rod from the pedal . revamped but lost leverage . thus the hyd . ............... thanks .. steve got teds kit 4 sale ! __________________ V4f

08-07-2012, 02:15 PM	#53
V4F Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ca. Posts: 2,522	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? well im very close now . drove it today . a little fine tuning & ill be done with that ! thanks to all that helped me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the last problem was leverage from the pedal to the mc ................. steve __________________ V4f

08-07-2012, 03:17 PM	#54
d.j. moordigian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fresno, Ca. Posts: 3,636	Re: Vacuum bleeding hydraulic brakes? Swap the cylinders and modify the backing plates, then it's a done deal....