Original Head Gasket

[kb]

Does anyone still sell the original copper head gasket with the white core for a fine point judging ?

[[email protected]]

I have known some who have painted the copper gasket edge with white paint before installing. They did a don't ask, don't tell and judged well. It also helps to seal any coolant weeping as well .

[mkmskm]

I'm sorry but I have to finally chime in one this one. There have been lots of threads on fine point judging and I just kept my mouth shut but this one is over the top. Come on, really? You paint the edge of the copper gasket white to mimic something that isn't made anymore just so it can pass fine point judging? And where is the "fine" in the judging if you can pass that the car left the factory with white paint on the edge of the head gasket? That is like those fake battery cases, repop T3 headlights (for later cars).... Face the facts that you can't reproduce how the cars left the factory perfectly because the consumable parts will have deteriorated and perfect replacements aren't available. Its one thing to have an accurate historical record, its another to "repaint" history.

[Bob Johnson]

Here are two excerpts from the judging standards:

A copper or brass-clad white asbestos gasket was used with the cylinder head.

An original part which is well restored and correct for the vehicle being judged shall be awarded full points. If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from the original, it too shall merit full points. If the appearance of a component is different in any way or if materials are different from those used in the original parts, the part must be considered to be a reproduction or incorrect part and awarded fewer points.

Since the original part had the white material a gasket without the white material would be distinguishable from the original and would not merit full points. I one were to paint the material white it might then be indistinguishable from the original and merit full points.



Bob

[Big John]

there are a heck of a lot of repro parts that don't look identical to original, but will still be awarded full points. depends on the judge...they rule......

[msmaron]

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If you check the right supplies they have the white clad gaskets
and YES mkmskm that is common to color the gaskets to match the originals and done all the time.

[mkmskm]

But is then the goal historical accuracy or just fooling the judges to score points? I know for most its historical accuracy and many have spent countless hours and dollars to correctly research and restore a car. This just seems like the wrong end to meet the means. It reminds me of Marco's post on the effort to put together a correct wiper blade, and I would hope those efforts are recognized as superior over trying to make something resemble something else with paint.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Yes, it is correct that the reproduction white-core gasket is no longer being manufactured. Now the filling is a gray composite. Yes it can be painted, ...and the other common option is to find an old Felpro 7013 with the white core. Many veteran hobbyists have these hanging on their garage wall.

Originally Posted by mkmskm

I'm sorry but I have to finally chime in one this one. There have been lots of threads on fine point judging and I just kept my mouth shut but this one is over the top. Come on, really? You paint the edge of the copper gasket white to mimic something that isn't made anymore just so it can pass fine point judging? And where is the "fine" in the judging if you can pass that the car left the factory with white paint on the edge of the head gasket? That is like those fake battery cases, repop T3 headlights (for later cars).... Face the facts that you can't reproduce how the cars left the factory perfectly because the consumable parts will have deteriorated and perfect replacements aren't available. Its one thing to have an accurate historical record, its another to "repaint" history.

In one way you are correct. In another, the 'art' of restoration for fine-point is MUCH different than other forms of Model-A restoration where replacement or reproduction parts are exchanged for worn parts. In fine-point, the level of detail is much greater as the craftsman is not only returning the item to original specifications, he is also trying to recreate the original aesthetics too. Some folks do not see the value in this and others sincerely love the challenge it presents.

One other thought, the Judges are supposed to evaluate the car solely against what has been written in the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards book. What some find difficult to understand is this book is not alway exact how every vehicle came down the assembly line, ...but it IS the Standard by which a vehicle is to be evaulated against. Again, it isn't necessarily how each Model-A was originally assembled, but rather the rulebook by what it will be evaluated against. Though this seems like a small technicality, it is a big difference.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Everything else gets repainted, so what's the problem?

p.s. I brought three NORS white asbestos head gaskets to the swap at Oshkosh to sell, and no one even asked the price. They are not hard to find.

How much for the gaskets,, i need them PLEASE...go ahead and email me please......mark

[email protected]

[mkmskm]

I don't have a problem with, it just seemed odd. Sure we paint everything else, but it came painted. I guess I haven't embraced the cosmetic forgery, then again I haven't asked my wife to quit wearing makeup.

[FL&WVMIKE]

All I have to say is, "Good grief, the nits, sure are getting picked !".
If I was doing high-point judging and was told to take off points for every reproduction part, that was painted to look original, I would go nuts !
There would be very few high-point cars.
MIKE

[Bob Johnson]

Here are another two excerpts from the standards:

If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from the original, it too shall merit full points. If the appearance of a component is different in any way or if materials are different from those used in the original part, the part must be considered a reproduction or incorrect part and awarded fewer points.

Occasionally judges may have used their technical knowledge of specific items that were not included in the Standards available at the time. Individual judges must not use their own ideas, interpretations and/or opinions as this puts the owner at a great disadvantage when his vehicle is judged against information not in the Standards. This practice shall be discontinued. A restorer from one part of the country can enter his Model A in other locations secure in the knowledge that his vehicle will be consistently evaluated. The measure of a restorers efforts shall be evaluated against the Standards and nothing more.

Bob

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bob Johnson

Occasionally judges may have used their technical knowledge of specific items that were not included in the Standards available at the time. Individual judges must not use their own ideas, interpretations and/or opinions as this puts the owner at a great disadvantage when his vehicle is judged against information not in the Standards. This practice shall be discontinued. A restorer from one part of the country can enter his Model A in other locations secure in the knowledge that his vehicle will be consistently evaluated. The measure of a restorers efforts shall be evaluated against the Standards and nothing more.

Bob

Marco ain't gonna like us bringing that one up again!! I got scolded last time I mentioned it!!

[foxfire42]

I'm confused. "If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from the original, it too shall merit full points." If it's indistinguishable from an original wouldn't it receive full points anyway? Is this in the JS's for consumable items assuming they couldn't possibly be NOS therefore must be reproduction?

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

I'm confused. "If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from the original, it too shall merit full points." If it's indistinguishable from an original wouldn't it receive full points anyway? Is this in the JS's for consumable items assuming they couldn't possibly be NOS therefore must be reproduction?

No, because the only "consumables" I and a few others have are oil and water! But actually my seat leather and glass are new so technically your premise would apply here.

It's really there to avoid stupid things like " Yea, it looks really good but Joe told me he made it by . . . . and it's not really an original."

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I just figured out why I DON'T have ULCERS! Bill W.

[foxfire42]

I guess I used "consumables" in error. I was referring to things that are so scarce and used items not considered restorable as in fan belts and hoses. At what point will these items no longer be found even by the most diligent.

[mkmskm]

I was thinking the same thing- batteries, hoses, belts, tires.... These would almost always have to be reproduction for most folks because NOS stock would be real small and you couldn't (or I wouldn't) run a car with 80 year old hoses, belts and tires.