camshaft (Long)

[aermotor]

I have never had an A engine totally apart. My question is - can a model A "jump" timing if the camshaft thrust plunger is not doing it's job because of a weak spring or some other reason? Reason I ask is because after complete trouble shooting the timing and entire ignition system the engine runs fine at idle and a little above. However when the advance lever is pulled down the engine will "bog" down and eventually quit. The distributor plate lever is touching both sides of the housing at full advance and full retard. Note, again, that this is happening with the advance lever being pulled down from full retard. I did pull the distributor shaft housing and shaft gear and could see no problems. The steering box is 7 tooth so no adjustment is available there but the dist. plate arm adjustment is okay as stated above. Timed with NewRex tool and once again the entire ignition system was trouble "shooted" and no problems noted. The carb was taken apart and rebuilt 2 times so carb. problems should not exist as the condition is all related to the spark advance - so I think. I have no way to know if it is going more retarded or advanced when it bogs down. I know how to determine with a timing light but I don't believe they even existed in the model A days and this problem should be fixable without one. The problem started with an erratic miss which could not be pin pointed to any one cylinder and occasional back fire when rapidly letting up on the gas pedal at higher RPM's when it was running. So I fixed it till it's really broke. O, yes the point gap is .017 and rotor to housing contacts all the same @ .025.

John

John

[700rpm]

Point gap may be too close for stock. I run mine at .020. Service Bulletins from April 1930 say .018-.022. I dunno about any other system.

[Patrick L.]

Is this a continuation of the previous, 'fixed till broke' thread ?

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

Point gap may be too close for stock. I run mine at .020. Service Bulletins from April 1930 say .018-.022. I dunno about any other system.

I have tried everything from .017 to .020

John

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Is this a continuation of the previous, 'fixed till broke' thread ?

Yep. John

[nkaminar]

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It is unlikely that the timing gear has jumped a tooth or two. But there is an easy way to check without taking the engine apart. First a little theory. The piston is at top dead center (TDC) for two times during the 4 stroke cycle. The first time the fuel is igniting and pushing down on the piston to start the power stroke. The second time the cylinder is switching from the exhaust stroke to the intake stroke. At that TDC both valves are slightly open.

The timing detent in the timing gear on the camshaft is used to locate TCD for the power stroke for the #1 cylinder. At the same time the #4 piston is at TCD switching from the exhaust stroke to the intake stroke.

Take all the plugs out. Leave the ignition and fuel off. Rotate the engine until the timing pin drops into the detent in the camshaft timing gear. Use a bore scope or other tool to check that the #1 piston is at TDC. The timing can be off a few degrees and the piston will still look like it is at TDC. Now check the valves on the #4 cylinder. The both should be just slightly open. If the cam timing is off, one valve will be closed and the other will be open about 1/4 inch.

The timing gears are helical cut, not straight cut, so I guess it is possible for the timing to change if the cam shaft is moving forward. If the cam plunger and spring are completely missing then I guess the timing could change to the point where the engine performance would be compromised.

[nkaminar]

If the engine bogs down when you pull down on the timing lever then either the timing is way too advanced or there is a fault with the distributor. I know you said that you have checked the ignition system, but it is still ignition related, so something is still wrong. Pulling down on the timing lever will advance the timing.

Check to see if the top plate in the distributor is not loose so that when you move it the point gap is changed. Also check that the wire that leads to the plate underneath does not have a bare spot that is rubbing against something.

The timing method on a Model A is pretty fool proof. Assuming the cam is timed correctly, the points should just be opening when the timing lever is full up and the timing pin is in the detent. If not then it is not timed correctly.

Lots of people use a timing light and degree wheel on a Model A to check the timing. The mechanics are the same as a modern engine. You can buy the parts from the vendors. Instructions come with the parts.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

It is unlikely that the timing gear has jumped a tooth or two. But there is an easy way to check without taking the engine apart. First a little theory. The piston is at top dead center (TDC) for two time during the 4 stroke cycle. The first time the fuel is igniting and pushing down on the piston to start the power stroke. The second time the cylinder is switching from the exhaust stroke to the intake stroke. At that TDC both valves are slightly open.

The timing detent in the timing gear on the camshaft is used to locate TCD for the power stroke for the #1 cylinder. At the same time the #4 piston is at TCD switching from the exhaust stroke to the intake stroke.

Take all the plugs out. Leave the ignition and fuel off. Rotate the engine until the timing pin drops into the detent in the camshaft timing gear. Use a bore scope or other tool to check that the #1 piston is at TDC. The timing can be off a few degrees and the piston will still look like it is at TDC. Now check the valves on the #4 cylinder. The both should be just slightly open. If the cam timing is off, one valve will be closed and the other will be open about 1/4 inch.

Did all that. I'm talking about the gear on the shaft that goes from the oil pump to the distributor. The shafts are all slip tight at the unions. I realize that top dead center observation in the spark plug hole could have a few degrees of crankshaft rotation but that should be a non-issue. I don't mean to be a smart a** on any replay - some may take it that way, I just need help.

Thanks, John

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

If the engine bogs down when you pull down on the timing lever then either the timing is way too advanced or there is a fault with the distributor. I know you said that you have checked the ignition system, but it is still ignition related, so something is still wrong. Pulling down on the timing lever will advance the timing.

Check to see if the top plate in the distributor is not loose so that when you move it the point gap is changed. Also check that the wire that leads to the plate underneath does not have a bare spot that is rubbing against something.

The timing method on a Model A is pretty fool proof. Assuming the cam is timed correctly, the points should just be opening when the timing lever is full up and the timing pin is in the detent. If not then it is not timed correctly.

Got all this checked and even replaced the distributor with one out of my
speedster that ran great on the road 10 mins. before the swap and all the problems are the same. I know I am missing something somewhere but two other A people have looked over my shoulder, we are all stumped. BTW, I replaced the cam gear a couple years ago because the old one had a lot of slack between the phenolic center and the ring gear. I did check the points opening with a trouble light.

Thanks, John

[nkaminar]

Well, John, It sounds like you have done everything I can think of and done it correctly. I am stumped too. I will have to think about it.

If the engine is getting the right fuel/air mixture, the compression is good, and the spark is at the right time and a hot spark, the engine should run well. Have you tried a different coil and high tension wire? A marginal spark will not jump the gap at the plug under compression. It will look good at atmospheric pressure but not under compression.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

- Well, John, It sounds like you have done everything I can think of and done it correctly. I am stumped too. I will have to think about it.

If the engine is getting the right fuel/air mixture, the compression is good, and the spark is at the right time and a hot spark, the engine should run well. Have you tried a different coil and high tension wire? A marginal spark will not jump the gap at the plug under compression. It will look good at atmospheric pressure but not under compression.

I did try a different coil and wire. I only checked the compression the old time way with my thumb in the spark plug hole. As I said every thing I changed I took off my good running speedster. As an aside I have had the engine running smooth on one cylinder taking one plug wire off at a time, I didn't think a 4 cylinder engine would do that but when tuned properly it will. I fool with hit & miss engines and some will run good by pulling the flywheel through with my thumb and fore finger, I doubt more than 3 or 4 to 1 compression ratio - if that much. I also run 2 hit & miss 8 cycle engines - figure that one out. I am really stumped.

Thanks, John

[nkaminar]

Can you borrow a compression gauge and get some accurate numbers? You may want to use a vacuum gauge too. See the thread about the vacuum gauge.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Can you borrow a compression gauge and get some accurate numbers? You may want to use a vacuum gauge too. See the thread about the vacuum gauge.

I will do that, will take a couple days due to other commitments and will need help with the results as related to this problem.

Thanks, John

[ursus]

Let's return to the OP's original question: "My question is - can a model A "jump" timing if the camshaft thrust plunger is not doing it's job because of a weak spring or some other reason?"

The answer is Hell, yes! The spring may be weak or simply broken. I chased this all over the ignition, timing, compression, and fuel delivery universe before discovering a broken camshaft thrust plunger spring. I kept checking and adjusting every parameter of normal running, the engine would start and run correctly until I braked, made a sharp turn, shifted gears or scratched my arse, then it all fell apart, with backfiring, loss of power, etc.

Pull that front timing cover and tell us what you found.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by aermotor

I have tried everything from .017 to .020

John

But are you running stock?

[Tom Wesenberg]

When I read "jump timing", I thought you meant can the gears change due to the cam gear moving forward and out of mesh with the crank gear. The answer to that is no, but the spark timing will change due to the camshaft moving forward and rearward some if the spring is broken.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

But are you running stock?

Yes, John

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

When I read "jump timing", I thought you meant can the gears change due to the cam gear moving forward and out of mesh with the crank gear. The answer to that is no, but the spark timing will change due to the camshaft moving forward and rearward some if the spring is broken.

Thanks Tom, on the way to the shop to put things together so I keep from tripping over parts (in the AM). Then unto the timing cover, any thing else to check with the cover off for good measures?

John

[aermotor]

ursus was on the spot with several symptoms, so timing cover next - nice to have Tom's advice to go along. I may have been demoted to Newbie. What size is that slippery little roll pin that was a booger to get out with the engine in the car and is it hardware store quality?

Thanks, John

[J Franklin]

Mouse nests clogging the exhaust? Or a backfire dislodging baffling in the muffler? That can mess up how an engine will run. I know that doesn't jibe with all the symptoms but if all else fails.....

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Mouse nests clogging the exhaust? Or a backfire dislodging baffling in the muffler? That can mess up how an engine will run. I know that doesn't jibe with all the symptoms but if all else fails.....

Don't think so but wish it was as that would sure to be easier to check than the timing cover plunger spring,

Thanks, John

[updraught]

Check the timing cover isn't a B. It's more advanced.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/timingcovers.htm

[aermotor]

[QUOTE=updraught;2050786]Check the timing cover isn't a B. It's more advanced.

It is not a "B" Thanks, John

[updraught]

These things can be fitted under the valve cover. No manual advance needed then.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/nurexadvance.htm

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by updraught

These things can be fitted under the valve cover. No manual advance needed then.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/nurexadvance.htm

I would like to find the problem with the original set up. I did run a Mallory with a centrifical advance for a while but got tired of fooling with the springs to get what I felt was a decent curve.

Thanks, John

[updraught]

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Originally Posted by aermotor

I would like to find the problem with the original set up. I did run a Mallory with a centrifical advance for a while but got tired of fooling with the springs to get what I felt was a decent curve.

Thanks, John

I'm not saying to fit one, but if a previous owner has fitted one it may not be obvious.

[katy]

Have you checked for a vacuum leak?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by aermotor

ursus was on the spot with several symptoms, so timing cover next - nice to have Tom's advice to go along. I may have been demoted to Newbie. What size is that slippery little roll pin that was a booger to get out with the engine in the car and is it hardware store quality?

Thanks, John

I can't think of any roll pin. Where is it located?

The only pins I can think of is the two dowel pins for the cam gear.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I can't think of any roll pin. Where is it located?

The only pins I can think of is the two dowel pins for the cam gear.

I was wondering the same.

[rocket1]

Originally Posted by aermotor

i have never had an a engine totally apart. My question is - can a model a "jump" timing if the camshaft thrust plunger is not doing it's job because of a weak spring or some other reason? Reason i ask is because after complete trouble shooting the timing and entire ignition system the engine runs fine at idle and a little above. However when the advance lever is pulled down the engine will "bog" down and eventually quit. The distributor plate lever is touching both sides of the housing at full advance and full retard. Note, again, that this is happening with the advance lever being pulled down from full retard. I did pull the distributor shaft housing and shaft gear and could see no problems. The steering box is 7 tooth so no adjustment is available there but the dist. Plate arm adjustment is okay as stated above. Timed with newrex tool and once again the entire ignition system was trouble "shooted" and no problems noted. The carb was taken apart and rebuilt 2 times so carb. Problems should not exist as the condition is all related to the spark advance - so i think. I have no way to know if it is going more retarded or advanced when it bogs down. I know how to determine with a timing light but i don't believe they even existed in the model a days and this problem should be fixable without one. The problem started with an erratic miss which could not be pin pointed to any one cylinder and occasional back fire when rapidly letting up on the gas pedal at higher rpm's when it was running. So i fixed it till it's really broke. O, yes the point gap is .017 and rotor to housing contacts all the same @ .025.

John

john

check valves condition,compression and leakdown,tappet clearance,stop throwing parts at it.

[aermotor]

Post 28 & 29. Check Bratton's oil pump distributor drive gear sleeve. Mine would not come out with out removing that top shaft about 1" or so long.

Thanks, John

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by rocket1

check valves condition,compression and leakdown,tappet clearance,stop throwing parts at it.

Go through the entire thread starting with the first one and tell me what was wrong with my trouble shooting and where I was throwing parts at it. Valves have less than 500 miles since installation by a reputable shop, it has no tappets and the valve stems were ground for proper clearance. I still say it is an ignition problem and compression and leak down should be non-issues. I may be wrong but I am going for the walking cam shaft theory because of a possible broken or weak plunger spring as others have suggested. No way to trouble shoot that without pulling the front cover that I know of. If you know of a way let me know as I have just jacked the car and do not relish going the rest of the way. Changing parts was a double check. I did find a distributor bad that a friend loaned me that he had timed and under his back seat for emergency road repair. He is glad we found it now rather than when or if needed. There was another thread on this titled "Fixed till broke"

John

[Patrick L.]

I'm not sure of you look in the side cover [ light and maybe a mirror ] to see the plunger.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

I'm not sure of you look in the side cover [ light and maybe a mirror ] to see the plunger.

I guess that is possible, I will check but even if it is not broke I would have no way of checking the strength.

Thanks, John

[rocket1]

Originally Posted by aermotor

go through the entire thread starting with the first one and tell me what was wrong with my trouble shooting and where i was throwing parts at it. Valves have less than 500 miles since installation by a reputable shop, it has no tappets and the valve stems were ground for proper clearance. I still say it is an ignition problem and compression and leak down should be non-issues. I may be wrong but i am going for the walking cam shaft theory because of a possible broken or weak plunger spring as others have suggested. No way to trouble shoot that without pulling the front cover that i know of. If you know of a way let me know as i have just jacked the car and do not relish going the rest of the way. Changing parts was a double check. I did find a distributor bad that a friend loaned me that he had timed and under his back seat for emergency road repair. He is glad we found it now rather than when or if needed. There was another thread on this titled "fixed till broke"

john

john did not mean to upset you you changed the dist> and coil to no avail,yes it has tappets we call them lifters today.i would want to know the compression and if the cylinders will hold in a leak down test,nothing to take apart and all to gain.i think you said problem gradually worse not all of a sudden,possibly rebuilder left out the plunger spring? Best of luck hang in there you will find the problem.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by rocket1

john did not mean to upset you you changed the dist> and coil to no avail,yes it has tappets we call them lifters today.i would want to know the compression and if the cylinders will hold in a leak down test,nothing to take apart and all to gain.i think you said problem gradually worse not all of a sudden,possibly rebuilder left out the plunger spring? Best of luck hang in there you will find the problem.

Not upset at all, My understanding is that the engine does have tappets but they are not adjustable and the valve clearance is obtained by grinding the valve stems - 500 miles ago so the clearance should not have changed since that time. This is not a rebuilt engine, it was out to change the clutch and the valves were done than, I figured what the heck do the valves the machine shop was almost next door. It was more like a skip than miss. I did pull all the plugs, cleaned, replaced and ran the engine for about a minute. The skip was still there and all the plugs had about the same amount of soot. The engine ran fine at idle and slightly above but would "choke " down when the advance lever was brought down a little bit, moving it further down it would quit. I will do a compression test better than thumb over the spark plug hole method. Once again sorry if my response to your post sounded that I was upset with what you said.

John

[aermotor]

This all is giving me a head ache so I want return that. Ponder how my 8 cycle hit and miss engines work. Maybe start an O.T. thread with your chosen name.

Thanks, John

[Patrick L.]

You have an Aermotor water pump !? Thats a rare monster. There is one in this area. Never have been able spend enough time to figure out how the thing works.

[nkaminar]

John,

You have stated several times that you think this is an ignition issue. The only thing that I can think of that would give you the response with your advance lever is that the engine is too advanced or becomes too advanced. Check the plunger in the front. It is not too hard to do. But before that try a timing light. You can just put a mark with a bit of paint on the front pulley at 12:00 at TDC. You don't even need a pointer or you can just jury rig something up. Nothing like data to help understand what is wrong. It will be easy to see if the timing is 25 degrees advanced or 50 degrees. You don't need exact numbers for this first test. Or if you want to be more exact, put another mark 25 degrees advanced of the 12:00 position (12:50). With a 25 degree advance (close to ideal) the mark for TDC at 12:00 will be at 11:10. To be on the safe side you can take the fan belt off for the test.

[nkaminar]

Regarding a hit and miss engine. The intake valve is opened by the suction in the cylinder against a weak spring. When the flyball governor senses that the engine is running too fast, it will open the exhaust valve and turn off the magneto. The engine coasts with air being sucked in and pushed out with the open exhaust valve. The intake valve will not open because there is not enough suction. When the flyball governor senses that the engine has slowed down it will allow the exhaust valve to close and a fuel/air charge will be sucked into the engine and ignited by the now working magneto. The magneto is not like a modern one but operates by moving a magnet in a linear motion.

Fascinating engines. It seems like they run forever.

[nkaminar]

Even though the engine does not have adjustable tappets, you may want to check the clearance anyway. The red book has a detail description on how to do this.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Regarding a hit and miss engine. The intake valve is opened by the suction in the cylinder against a weak spring. When the flyball governor senses that the engine is running too fast, it will open the exhaust valve and turn off the magneto. The engine coasts with air being sucked in and pushed out with the open exhaust valve. The intake valve will not open because there is not enough suction. When the flyball governor senses that the engine has slowed down it will allow the exhaust valve to close and a fuel/air charge will be sucked into the engine and ignited by the now working magneto. The magneto is not like a modern one but operates by moving a magnet in a linear motion.

Fascinating engines. It seems like they run forever.

Got that part mostly right. The rest of the story. The next 4 strokes the exhaust valve for those not familiar with the 8 cycle Aermotor is open due to the cam profile. The cam gear is 4 times the crank gear, (of course in the 4 cycle engine it is 2 times the crank gear) the last 4 cycles - down, up, down, up with the exhaust valve open then back to intake, compression, power and exhaust. Interesting point is that the exhaust exits back toward the exhaust valve cage for more cooling.

John

[Patrick L.]

I think if I remember correctly we talked about ignition timing quite awhile ago. And I too still kinda think thats the issue.

[Patrick L.]

Yep, the 8 cycle Aermotor is a strange animal. The intake is atmospheric and the exhaust is mechanical as many engines of the day were. But that big ole cam gear dictating all those exhaust cycles is unique.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Regarding a hit and miss engine. The intake valve is opened by the suction in the cylinder against a weak spring. When the flyball governor senses that the engine is running too fast, it will open the exhaust valve and turn off the magneto. The engine coasts with air being sucked in and pushed out with the open exhaust valve. The intake valve will not open because there is not enough suction. When the flyball governor senses that the engine has slowed down it will allow the exhaust valve to close and a fuel/air charge will be sucked into the engine and ignited by the now working magneto. The magneto is not like a modern one but operates by moving a magnet in a linear motion.

Fascinating engines. It seems like they run forever.

Further explanation. The cam gear is 4 times the crank gear for the 8 cycles. Intake, compression, power, exhaust, the next 4 cycles (2 revolutions of the crank) the exhaust valve is open due to cam profile. Then we start over. Interesting fact is that the exhaust exits towards the exhaust cage for cooling. Of course engine is air cooled.

John

[aermotor]

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Break time over. If the plunger spring is weak or broken the cam will slide forward or they wouldn't be there. Will that make it more or less advanced? To many things apart now to put a timing light on to tell. Talk about over thinking a simple timing problem!!!

Thanks, John

[nkaminar]

From the front of the car, the crankshaft rotates clockwise, so the camshaft rotates counter clockwise. The gear teeth on the cam gear are right handed, so as the cam moves forward the cam moves counter clockwise, and thus advances the timing. However, the gear in the center of the camshaft will retard the timing as the cam is moved forward. I don't know which effect dominates or whether they cancel each other out to a net no change.

I suspect that you will find the thrust plunger and spring are OK, or not damaged to the extent that they would cause the problem you are experiencing.

Updraught had a valid point. There may be an advance mechanism somewhere. It would be easy to test this by hand moving the rotor while the distributor is in the car. If it moves more than a small amount there is an advance mechanism somewhere.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

From the front of the car, the crankshaft rotates clockwise, so the camshaft rotates counter clockwise. The gear teeth on the cam gear are right handed, so as the cam moves forward the cam moves counter clockwise, and thus advances the timing. However, the gear in the center of the camshaft will retard the timing as the cam is moved forward. I don't know which effect dominates or whether they cancel each other out to a net no change.

I suspect that you will find the thrust plunger and spring are OK, or not damaged to the extent that they would cause the problem you are experiencing.

Updraught had a valid point. There may be an advance mechanism somewhere. It would be easy to test this by hand moving the rotor while the distributor is in the car. If it moves more than a small amount there is an advance mechanism somewhere.

I don't know one way or another about your first paragraph. You may be right about the thrust plunger. The advance mechanism some where has me puzzled, I have the side cover off and everything from the oil pump through the head and I see nothing different from Les A's book or the suppliers catalogs. In post #39 you said "check the plunger in front it is not too hard to do." Loosening the rear mount bolts, blocking up the engine, removing the front mount bolts and the rest of the bolts then reversing the process along
with the front seal, draining and replacing the oil and cost of the parts and oil isn't exactly a easy or cheap 10 minute job. What do you think the problem is?

Thanks, John

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

I was wondering the same.

[QUOTE=Tom Wesenberg;2050854]I can't think of any roll pin. Where is it located?

I suppose everyone is as tired of this thread as I am & I started it. Concerning the above, Tom's post # 28 and Patrick L.'s post # 29. I can't post a picture but refer to Bratton's pictures for part #9550 and #9551. The shaft pictured will not come out of the block without separating these parts. Nowhere could I find this out without doing it and I guess no one really needs to know or care except an overhauler.

Thanks, John

[aermotor]

If any one still thinks I know nothing about Model A engines, timing, trouble shooting, 4 stroke engines or I am a smart "arse", and feel offended by any one - my previous threads or responses included, I will take my tools, go home and quit the Barn.

John

[Patrick L.]

Seems to me everyone is/was trying to help and be friendly.

[nkaminar]

Hi John,

Everyone is trying to help and no one thinks you are a smart a@@.

Regarding checking the plunger at the front of the engine. The easiest way to work on the front of the engine is to take the radiator out first. It can be done without doing that but with the radiator out of the way it is much easier. Follow the instructions in Les Andrews' book, Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook, Vol. I for changing the timing gear, page 1-324, but don't change the timing gear, just check the plunger. After getting everything out of the way you just have to remove the timing gear cover. You can re-use the gaskets by cleaning them up and using a small amount of gasket sealer of your choice.

Getting the response you got from the advance lever, I would have just adjusted the distributor cam a little more retarded regardless of where the timing pin dropped into the recess. On a more modern engine you can just rotate the distributor body until the engine runs the best. I wish you could do that on a Model A, and perhaps you could by having the distributor not set in the pin and not tightened down, just to test the timing.

When you get the engine back together let me know and I will drive down to Greenville to help you. I have over 60 years experience with Model A's.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by aermotor

Post 28 & 29. Check Bratton's oil pump distributor drive gear sleeve. Mine would not come out with out removing that top shaft about 1" or so long.

Thanks, John

I forgot about that pin.
The original was a solid pin, but Bratton's roll pin is a better idea.

[Patrick L.]

[QUOTE=aermotor;2051133]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I can't think of any roll pin. Where is it located?

I suppose everyone is as tired of this thread as I am & I started it. Concerning the above, Tom's post # 28 and Patrick L.'s post # 29. I can't post a picture but refer to Bratton's pictures for part #9550 and #9551. The shaft pictured will not come out of the block without separating these parts. Nowhere could I find this out without doing it and I guess no one really needs to know or care except an overhauler.

Thanks, John

Apparently Tom and I didn't realize that was the pin you were talking about. I was confused, which is normal. I think that is a common roll pin.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I forgot about that pin.
The original was a solid pin, but Bratton's roll pin is a better idea.

I didn't think thats what he was talking about. Sorry. Sometimes these posts can get confusing. And I'm usually confused enough already.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Hi John,
When you get the engine back together let me know and I will drive down to Greenville to help you. I have over 60 years experience with Model A's.

Ready for you, I will take care of all expenses. I do want another look - see before that timing cover removal, it's possible I missed something staring me in the eye somewhere. I am all set with TDC etc. but haven't tried to start it yet. 864-316-0496

Many Thanks, John

[28PHAETONROY]

Aermotor
I’m an amateur at working on A’s but here’s one that happened to a friend and I- the timing linkage was hitting the top of the head when advanced and it would lift the distributor plate out of kilter causing us to chase our tails for awhile. Probably not your problem but it’s very easy to check before pulling the timing cover.
Roy

[aermotor]

[QUOTE=28PHAETONROY;2051758]Aermotor
I’m an amateur at working on A’s but here’s one that happened to a friend and I- the timing linkage was hitting the top of the head when advanced and it would lift the distributor plate out of kilter causing us to chase our tails for awhile. Probably not your problem but it’s very easy to check before pulling the timing cover.
Roy[/QUOTE

I will check that closer but I don' recall seeing any problem. I did have it off numerous times so it could have been bent then.

Thanks, John

[aermotor]

[QUOTE=aermotor;2051787]

Originally Posted by 28PHAETONROY

Aermotor
I’m an amateur at working on A’s but here’s one that happened to a friend and I- the timing linkage was hitting the top of the head when advanced and it would lift the distributor plate out of kilter causing us to chase our tails for awhile. Probably not your problem but it’s very easy to check before pulling the timing cover.
Roy[/QUOTE

I will check that closer but I don' recall seeing any problem. I did have it off numerous times so it could have been bent then.

Thanks, John

I did check that and the clearance to the head was OK. The rod was touching the dist. cable housing a bit with the T block cover off for trouble shooting. I installed the cover and the clearance was good. No clamp to the head stud. Good point and will note that in my other notes.

Thanks, John

[nkaminar]

I drove down the Greenville today, 3 hours each way, and was able to help John sort out his ignition problem. The timing was not correct. John had done everything correctly but not accurately enough. After I adjusted the timing the car started up and ran well. We drove it to a BarBQ place for lunch. It still is popping in the carburetor when backing off, for instance when shifting or coming to a stop. I will have to think about that but it is probably related to the idle adjustment.

John is a real gentleman and it was a pleasure meeting him and being able to help him with his car. He has done a magnificent job restoring his Tudor. His collection of hit and miss engines was a real treat to see.

[Tom Wesenberg]

"His collection of hit and miss engines was a real treat to see."
They are such fun to watch and to listen to them running.
I still have a few, but had more before the thieves moved in.

[aermotor]

[QUOTE=nkaminar;2052787]I drove down the Greenville today, 3 hours each way, and was able to help John sort out his ignition problem.]

There is no way I can express my appreciation for what Neil (nkaminar) did for me, drove for 7 hrs. on a holiday weekend and lengthened his "Honey Do" list to fix a car that I have been fooling with for 3 weeks or so. He showed up when he said he would and corrected the problem in less than 1/2 an hour or so. He had all kinds parts and tools that I never knew existed along and a meter that I have no clue what it did. As I understand it everything was within the recommended specs, but the cumulative total of some specs. being on the high side and others on the low side caused the problems that I described. No written trouble shooting guides I know of would have found this without the meter he had (that probably didn't exist back in the days). I consider Neil a real friend even though the chances of crossing paths again are probably pretty slim. When I asked what I owed him, he said - aw, whatever you think, I gave him some $'s, he peeled two 20's off the top and said here, that is too much. I could not have asked for or gotten more than I did from Neil. Thanks again Neil - it was a great day!

John

[Big hammer]

Good job Neil ! Getting another A back on the road, that's what it's about.