47 V8 ignition mystery

[Old Henry]

Prior to starting my 10,000 mile maintenance Old Henry was running fine. I replaced all of the sparkplugs and was replacing the distributor contact points when I discovered that I could not properly gap the points because the peaks on the distributor cam were worn down too much. So, I ordered a remanufactured distributor from Southside Obsolete that looked like new when it arrived. Cam peaks nice and sharp. Since the remanufacture was some time ago I replaced the points with new ones and was able to properly gap them. After installing the new distributor the engine worked even better than before . . . for one short errand. Then it started skipping beats and fairly quickly was skipping a lot - missing cylinders. I put a timing light on the coil high tension wire and the spark was very inconsistent. I suspected possible problem with the new distributor rotor I'd installed so removed the distributor cap and examined it for any damage to it or the rotor. No damage to cap nor rotor. I then suspected the old condenser/capacitor I'd had on for a long time. Removed it and checked it. Still perfect but replaced it with another perfect one. Didn't help. I then took a short drive with the timing light on the coil wire shining in my eyes while I drove. It has smoothed out but some cylinders were still missing. Back at the garage the spark at the coil wire was smooth but at the spark plugs several were very intermittent. I suspected defective wires so last night, after dark, I ran the engine in total darkness to see if I could see any sparks from any wires. I saw none but saw some slight spark leakage from the base of the spark plugs to the block. Took another drive this morning hoping for a miraculous recovery. None. Several cylinders still not firing. It seems clearly an ignition problem but I'm bewildered.

What have I missed?

Any ideas of what else to try?

Any help greatly appreciated. Old Henry is still my daily driver.

[Ggmac]

Thinking , you should not have spark from base of plug to block . Either the blug isn’t completely tightened and grounded or the plug is bad and the spark is following the path of least resistance, the outside of the plug ? I’ve never seen that happen .
Still thinking , good one .

[Lawrie]

Craig,
I always have a spare set up distributor in the 33 .
You should get another distributor from some where and try that, some time the problems take a while to sort.
I would fit new spark plugs ,that is an easy thing.
Try another cap, and rotor.
change the condenser ,
put new fuel in
One thing I found on one of my misfire problems was the little brass straps that connect the points to the round low tension contact were bent out of shape and one was shorting out on the steel part the points spring screw goes into.
Lawrie

[TJ]

I suspect it's the condenser. Recently had an experience with a Chevrolet distributor and it
had some of the same symptoms. Changed the condenser and problem solved.

[JayChicago]

"saw some slight spark leakage from the base of the spark plugs to the block"

Is the gap on the plugs too large? I think should be about .025 for our 6 volt cars. Out-of-the-box plugs are usually much larger gap.

[Old Henry]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Lawrie

Craig,
I always have a spare set up distributor in the 33 .
You should get another distributor from some where and try that, some time the problems take a while to sort.
I would fit new spark plugs ,that is an easy thing.
Try another cap, and rotor.
change the condenser ,
put new fuel in
One thing I found on one of my misfire problems was the little brass straps that connect the points to the round low tension contact were bent out of shape and one was shorting out on the steel part the points spring screw goes into.
Lawrie

Thanks for you insights.

I did replace the sparkplugs checking the gap on all first.
I have just ordered new distributor caps (inner and outer) boots and wires.
I did replace the condenser. Didn't help.
I even checked those little brass straps you mention when I was installing the new distributor and bent them away to make sure they didn't touch ground.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by TJ

I suspect it's the condenser. Recently had an experience with a Chevrolet distributor and it
had some of the same symptoms. Changed the condenser and problem solved.

Yeah, I've solved ignition problems in the past by replacing the condenser so I tried that first. Didn't help.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by JayChicago

"saw some slight spark leakage from the base of the spark plugs to the block"

Is the gap on the plugs too large? I think should be about .025 for our 6 volt cars. Out-of-the-box plugs are usually much larger gap.

I checked the gap on the new plugs as I installed them. They were all correct.

The "glow" around the base of the plugs is, indeed, a mystery I don't understand.

[Old Henry]

Just to make sure the problem wasn't in the new plugs, I switched the plugs from the cylinders that were firing with the ones that weren't. The problem stayed with the cylinders, not the plugs. So, they're all OK.

Because the distributor was creating reliable spark from the coil but the sparks weren't making it to some of the plugs, I decided to bite the bullet and replace all wires, distributor caps (inner and outer), and boots even though I could not see any sparks in the dark from the wires. Hope it fixes the problem. All of those new parts ain't cheap.

Thanks to all who made an effort to consider and advise.

[Seth Swoboda]

Why not send your new distributor so someone like Michael Driskell to time and check out on the distributor tester? When you get it back it will be timed and ready to bolt on.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

Why not send your new distributor so someone like Michael Driskell to time and check out on the distributor tester? When you get it back it will be timed and ready to bolt on.

I will probably do that very thing while waiting for all of the wiring parts to come.
What is Michael Driskell's contact information please.

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I will probably do that very thing while waiting for all of the wiring parts to come.
What is Michael Driskell's contact information please.

www.thirdgenauto.com

844-327-5988

When you get it back, bolt it on, have fun.

[Ggmac]

This spark plug glow at the base is bugging me . If its still together, I have a simple test you could try . Take a jumper leade and attach to the base of the spark plug (while its in the cyl head and ready to run ) take that leade and attach the other end from the plug base to a solid ground on the motor . What I’m trying to do is eliminate the possibility of the plug NOT BEING GROUNDED when installed in the cyl head . Never had nor heard of this situation, but also never had a glow or spark from plug base to ctl head either .
Just a way to eliminate the potential of it being not grounded. If the cyl starts to fire , we’re on to something.

[Brian]

St Elmos fire? You're not, by chance running resistor type plugs are you Craig?

[pistonbroke]

The glow around the plug base is an odd one for sure, but I'm going with too much resistance in the plug wires. If they are carbon fiber they may have fractured when you did your tune up. Not leaking anywhere just not passing the amount of current if any needed. Just my two cents, Tim

[Seth Swoboda]

If you have carbon fiber plug wires, remove them for the original type plug wires. A second benefit of changing to original is that carbon fiber plug wires on these cars just look ugly.

[35fordtn]

If its a old Reman, the point contact plunger could be froze. Common issue. Also if you replaced the points and used anything except NEW standard FD6770 or Echlin CS47, plan to replace the points. NOS points and other brand points have weak spring tension. Send it in if you need and we can throw it on a Sun Machine.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Brian

St Elmos fire? You're not, by chance running resistor type plugs are you Craig?

Originally Posted by pistonbroke

The glow around the plug base is an odd one for sure, but I'm going with too much resistance in the plug wires. If they are carbon fiber they may have fractured when you did your tune up. Not leaking anywhere just not passing the amount of current if any needed. Just my two cents, Tim

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

If you have carbon fiber plug wires, remove them for the original type plug wires. A second benefit of changing to original is that carbon fiber plug wires on these cars just look ugly.

The sparkplug wires I've been using are exact reproductions of the originals with copper cores the same as the ones I just ordered here: https://cwmoss.com/products/spark-pl...e-sets-1946-48

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 35fordtn

If its a old Reman, the point contact plunger could be froze. Common issue. Also if you replaced the points and used anything except NEW standard FD6770 or Echlin CS47, plan to replace the points. NOS points and other brand points have weak spring tension. Send it in if you need and we can throw it on a Sun Machine.

I'm sending the distributor to Michael Driskell today to get checked out. I did replace the points with new ones from NAPA that have always worked well for me but it doesn't hurt, as long as I'm replacing virtually the whole ignitions system, to get it thoroughly tested.

[corvette8n]

Professionally fixed and tested it the way to go, I sent mine to CharlieNY and found out the shaft was bent. After being repaired I only had to bolt it on and drive it.

[Bored&Stroked]

One of the challenges can be that distributor machines don't test anything to do with the secondary side of the equation - so while the distributor may "spin up" just fine on the machine, when you put the cap, rotor, wires and plugs in the engine, it may leak voltage to strange places. Due to this, on my distributor machine I have a custom setup to test the engine ignition system --> coil(s), cap, wires and plugs.

This is particularly important on the ole' Harman Collins dual-coils with the yellow mid-plate. Those mid-plates can leak secondary spark/voltage all over the place - the problem is quite typical. The symptom is that 4 cylinders will run fine and 4 will either not run, or have terribly intermittent sparks and dropped cylinders.

Here you can see "Frankenstein's Tester" in action: LOL

https://youtu.be/3xduaVyzx10

[cas3]

Thats a cool machine Dale! Takes the guess work out of the equation for sure.

[ford38v8]

Now, that's a work of art!

[Lawrie]

Man I like that, I have a home made distributor set up machine, but I only use plugs with a very wide gap,I think I will make a setup like that for extending the gap.
I set up all. my V8 distributors on it, and in this last week a pile of my model A ones with a vac advance,
it is very easy to set up and alter the advance amount and curve,
My machine is not as sanitised as your one.but sure does a great job.
Lawrie

[Lawrie]

A couple of pictures for my post above

[petehoovie]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Lawrie

A couple of pictures for my post above

[Old Henry]

Verdict (as us legal beagles are want to say): It appears to be the condenser that was guilty.

To refresh your memory, I had purchased a remanufactured distributor from Southside Obsoletes, replaced the old points, and put in my old condenser that still tested .35 mfds. Then I had all kinds of cylinders miss-firing. It seemed that the spark coming out of the coil was steady but was not making it to all of the cylinders. So, I figured it was the sparkplug wires and ordered all new ones along with new boots and both outer and inner distributor caps to replace. While waiting for those to come I sent the distributor to Michael Driskell to check out to make sure it wasn't the problem. All he found was that my correct gaps of the points did not make the dwell correct so adjusted that and said my condenser was bad even though it had tested .35 mfds and replaced that and returned the distributor to me. In the mean time all other parts had come to replace but I waited until I got the distributor back to put in and see if it fixed the problem without having to replace all of the other stuff. To my great and pleasant surprise, it did and I didn't have to replace the rest.

I pondered on the question I asked myself why the new condenser that only tested at .31 mfds (.35 being optimal) worked better than my old one that tested optimally. I concluded that there is more to the adequacy of a condenser than just its capacitance. Over time, the paper and foil that it's made of deteriorates and ceases working even though its capacitance tests optimally. (Even though that seemed like a new idea to me, it is more likely something I knew and forgot.)

So, lesson learned: Always replace the condenser whenever replacing the points, even if their capacitance still seems correct.

[corvette8n]

Glad you got it fixed, don’t forget to carry a few good condensers with you.

[35fordtn]

Old Henry glad you are up and running.

Your distributor had 42 degrees of dwell and a bad condenser, with either one of the two IÂ’m surprised it ran. Testing just the mfdÂ’s of a condenser is not a true test. We heat them to 160 degrees and test the mfdÂ’s and the leakage as thatÂ’s the typical failure. Your issue was the leakage, it wouldnÂ’t hold a charge for more and than a millisecond. A early ford really can run fine on .20-.45 mfdÂ’s. I think ford used .36 since some vehicles like busses and truck sat idling a lot where the higher mfd helps from burning points at idling for long periods.

Ps the new condenser is a standard fd72 and I have never after using and selling well over 400 of them have ever seen one go bad

[Old Henry]

All of my life the routine was to replace points and condenser together until a few years ago when I read an article (that I can't find right now) about condensers that told how too high or too low mfds would cause pitting and peaking of the points, too high one way, too low the other, and that once a condenser was found that did not pit and peak the points to keep it as they are rare. So I did. For years now I've never seen any pit or peak on any of the points I've replaced so have just kept the same condenser until now that something worse than pitting and peaking occurred. I'll go back to my routine of replacing the condenser with the points every time and get the points from NAPA the same as I get the points and rotor even though I may end up with some points pitting and peaking.

[Old Henry]

The sad saga continues . . .

Unfortunately, the new condenser was not the "silver bullet" that would kill my ignition problem nor solve the mystery. It only helped for about a day when the same old problem returned - skipping beats under load.

I thought maybe the coil. The impedance of the high tension coil was only 6,440 ohms, not the 10-11,000 ohm it should be, but I pulled off the high tension wire to the distributor and plugged in a short one and watched the spark at the end near a head bolt. The spark was strong and consistent - never skipping a beat so I thought it must be OK.

Since I had already replaced all spark plugs and distributor, all that was left were the spark plug wires and distributor cap. So, I ordered whose and knuckled down to change them when they arrived.

Removing the old wire conduits and the cap was the first time I had been able to inspect the cap. It looked like the attached photo so I thought for sure it must be the problem and replacing it would solve my problem. Again, as soon as I got all of that replaced I tried the engine, drove the car around, and it seemed to have fixed the problem - for about a day. UGHH!

When the old problem of stumbling under load returned I turned to examination of the spark plugs I'd just put in. Oddly enough, the bracket on #2 was smashed right down to the tip without any gap at all. That would seem to be a problem. I gapped it properly and checked all other plugs. They were all gapped correctly but #1 had black moist soot on it. The plug fires OK so I hope that's not the problem

I hoped fixing the plug would fix the problem and tested it by climbing a short very steep hill. I had full power with all cylinders firing. So, we decided to do a little 350 mile overnight road trip the next day.

As soon as we set out the same old problem returned - stumbling under load but otherwise fairly smooth on level high speed. Needless to say, the 172 miles we drove that afternoon was not as relaxing as usual with the engine stumbling most of the way.

I hoped it was a fuel problem, not ignition, so next morning before heading home I hooked up my timing light, clamped the sensor to the coil high tension wire and duct taped the light to my cowl so I could watch the light and know what was going on with the spark while we went down the road. (See attached photo) Unfortunately, the stumbling showed in the light flashes - more when under load so it's still an ignition problem.

I don't know what else to do.

Any ideas?

[JayChicago]

Have you tried a different coil? My understanding is that coils (like condensers) will often work fine at first, but then start to fail when they get warm from usage. So looking at spark output in the garage may not tell you how it will perform later.

And what about that plug you found with tip bent closed? That's curious! Have you pulled that plug to see what it looks like now?

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The sad saga continues . . .

Unfortunately, the new condenser was not the "silver bullet" that would kill my ignition problem nor solve the mystery. It only helped for about a day when the same old problem returned - skipping beats under load.

I thought maybe the coil. The impedance of the high tension coil was only 6,440 ohms, not the 10-11,000 ohm it should be, but I pulled off the high tension wire to the distributor and plugged in a short one and watched the spark at the end near a head bolt. The spark was strong and consistent - never skipping a beat so I thought it must be OK.

Since I had already replaced all spark plugs and distributor, all that was left were the spark plug wires and distributor cap. So, I ordered whose and knuckled down to change them when they arrived.

Removing the old wire conduits and the cap was the first time I had been able to inspect the cap. It looked like the attached photo so I thought for sure it must be the problem and replacing it would solve my problem. Again, as soon as I got all of that replaced I tried the engine, drove the car around, and it seemed to have fixed the problem - for about a day. UGHH!

When the old problem of stumbling under load returned I turned to examination of the spark plugs I'd just put in. Oddly enough, the bracket on #2 was smashed right down to the tip without any gap at all. That would seem to be a problem. I gapped it properly and checked all other plugs. They were all gapped correctly but #1 had black moist soot on it. The plug fires OK so I hope that's not the problem

I hoped fixing the plug would fix the problem and tested it by climbing a short very steep hill. I had full power with all cylinders firing. So, we decided to do a little 350 mile overnight road trip the next day.

As soon as we set out the same old problem returned - stumbling under load but otherwise fairly smooth on level high speed. Needless to say, the 172 miles we drove that afternoon was not as relaxing as usual with the engine stumbling most of the way.

I hoped it was a fuel problem, not ignition, so next morning before heading home I hooked up my timing light, clamped the sensor to the coil high tension wire and duct taped the light to my cowl so I could watch the light and know what was going on with the spark while we went down the road. (See attached photo) Unfortunately, the stumbling showed in the light flashes - more when under load so it's still an ignition problem.

I don't know what else to do.

Any ideas?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by JayChicago

Have you tried a different coil? My understanding is that coils (like condensers) will often work fine at first, but then start to fail when they get warm from usage. So looking at spark output in the garage may not tell you how it will perform later.

And what about that plug you found with tip bent closed? That's curious! Have you pulled that plug to see what it looks like now?

I thought I had another coil to try but couldn't find it. I may have to buy another just to see.

The straightened plug is fine. I just checked it.

[Terry,OH]

Both the coil and the ignition condenser can fail after heat builds up and yet, when cold, can work properly. If you have had your original Ford coil rebuilt by Skip Haney, I would suggest it is most likely good. Who manufactured your plugs and what number are the plugs? Does your engine have a heavy battery ground cable bolted to one of the head studs? Which cylinders are not firing correctly?How do you explain the plug electrode being bent when you checked plug gap before installing?

[deuce_roadster]

I would guess that either the reach of the plugs is too long or there is enough carbon built up to hit the ground strap on the plug. How many miles are on this engine? What make and plug number are we talking about? I would certainly replace that cap and not write anything inside of it. I would also double check the ground of the engine to insure it was clean and tight clear to the battery. If loose and dirty, it might fail as the engine heats up.
An old timer once told me that all electrical troubleshooting begins with and at the battery.
Have you used a jumper to eliminate the resistor when the poor running is happening? It could cause problems too as well as the ignition switch itself.

[Seth Swoboda]

When you say it stumbles under load, it's when you are hard on the accelerator pedal? How do you know you don't have a problem with your accelerator pump?

[47topless]

You could just buy one of those Blue Streak (Flame?) tube coils at NAPA or O'Reilly, depending on your system, with or without built-in resistor, and test that. They are very inexpensive, and you would then have an emergency spare.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

Have you used a jumper to eliminate the resistor when the poor running is happening? It could cause problems too as well as the ignition switch itself.

Now here's something really weird.

I just connected a jumper wire from the battery to the coil, bypassing the resistor and all wiring through the ignition switch. I had actually done that once on my trip to see if it helped. Both times it actually made the problem MUCH WORSE. I could hardly climb the hill in front of our house.

Why is that? Can't figure that one.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

Who manufactured your plugs and what number are the plugs?

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

What make and plug number are we talking about?

Spark plugs are brand new Autolite 216 just installed. Same as I've used for years.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

Does your engine have a heavy battery ground cable bolted to one of the head studs?

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

I would also double check the ground of the engine to insure it was clean and tight clear to the battery. If loose and dirty, it might fail as the engine heats up.
An old timer once told me that all electrical troubleshooting begins with and at the battery.

Engine is well grounded with webbed ground cable from head bolt to firewall within a foot of the same style ground cable from battery post to firewall. Starter motor works fine so ground not the problem.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

How do you explain the plug electrode being bent when you checked plug gap before installing?

That one is a total mystery. I've checked it again since re-gapping it and it's fine.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

When you say it stumbles under load, it's when you are hard on the accelerator pedal? How do you know you don't have a problem with your accelerator pump?

I just rebuilt the carburetor including replacing the accelerator pump. If that was the problem it would hesitate when first pressing the gas pedal. It doesn't do that. It's after pushing the pedal with the pedal still.

On my trip I ran mostly with the throttle holding the gas steady. Still, when under load up an incline it stumbled but not so much when on the level.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 47topless

You could just buy one of those Blue Streak (Flame?) tube coils at NAPA or O'Reilly, depending on your system, with or without built-in resistor, and test that. They are very inexpensive, and you would then have an emergency spare.

I just ordered a $15.00 6 volt coil from Amazon that will be here Monday to try before laying out $80.00 for the real thing. Hope it fixes the problem. That would be a fix easier than anything I've done so far.

The coil I'm using was rebuilt by Skip Haney in 2015, 70,000 miles ago.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

How many miles are on this engine? I would certainly replace that cap and not write anything inside of it.

80,000 since engine bearings replaced in 2014.

95,000 since pistons replaced in 2013.

Just replaced the distributor cap if that's the cap you're referring to. Don't understand not writing anything inside of it. Do you mean some other cap?

[Old Henry]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

Which cylinders are not firing correctly?

6,3,7, & 8. 6 the worst, 3 next, then 7 & 8 less than the others.

I switched plugs between 1 and 3 then 2 and 6 in case plugs were bad. It isn't the plugs. It's those cylinder locations.

When I just replaced all of the spark plug wires I confirmed continuity of each one between the distributor cap terminal and the spark plug end.

What else could it be?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Just replaced the distributor cap if that's the cap you're referring to. Don't understand not writing anything inside of it.

You should NEVER write anything inside a distributor cap, most especially with a lead pencil. It is extremely likely that a spark will jump to and follow the writing instead of going to where it is supposed to go. It's a phenomenon called carbon arcing.

Coop


.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

You should NEVER write anything inside a distributor cap, most especially with a lead pencil. It is extremely likely that a spark will jump to and follow the writing instead of going to where it is supposed to go. It's a phenomenon called carbon arcing.

Coop


.

Good thing I've never written anything inside of a distributor cap. I use an engraver to mark each terminal for continuity testing. (See post #33 photos)

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Good thing I've never written anything inside of a distributor cap. I use an engraver to mark each terminal for continuity testing. (See post #33 photos)

If that is one of those engravers that vibrates, you may be inducing cracks in that plastic that cannot be seen to the naked eye. Cracked caps need to be tossed in the round can immediately. If you're having such a hard time determining which terminal is which, use some masking tape to write on which can be peeled off later.

Coop


.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

If that is one of those engravers that vibrates, you may be inducing cracks in that plastic that cannot be seen to the naked eye. Cracked caps need to be tossed in the round can immediately. If you're having such a hard time determining which terminal is which, use some masking tape to write on which can be peeled off later.

Coop


.

Good "point".


Next time I'll use my Dremel spinning engraver instead of the jackhammer.


Thanks.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Good "point".


Next time I'll use my Dremel spinning engraver instead of the jackhammer.


Thanks.

Why would you NOT use masking tape, for instance? Whether you use a "jackhammer" or spinning engraver, any time you disturb the finished surface on a distributor cap, you introduce POSSIBLE pathways for errant current travel. It's been proven in the past that these pathways or anomalies in the cap's surface don't necessarily need to be visible for them to exist. Electricity only knows to follow whatever path that physics has deemed the easiest way to get back to ground, whether it makes sense to us humans, or not!

Coop


.

[Old Henry]

I just ordered another new distributor cap and will chuck this other new one that I marred up. I'll install the new one without marring it. Hope it solves my ignition mystery. Doesn't seem to be any other ideas to solve it.

I'll also try the new coil when it comes although that doesn't seem like the problem. I've tried everything everyone's suggested so far. Something's got to work.

[35fordtn]

The breaker plate terminals can give issues. We have to check them thoroughly during every rebuild. That usually only causes a random miss. You declined the recommendation of a full rebuild on your distributor and only had us adjust the dwell and timing so there is a lot of still unknowns

Only missing under heavy load only with no relative relation to rpm’s sure sounds like carburetor power valve or accelerator plunger to me

[Old Henry]

I'm afraid that my ignition problem has deteriorated to the point that it is now constant, even at idle. It is just more noticeable under load.

Regarding the distributor, it is my understanding the it has just three simple functions:
1) turn the coil on and off to create spark,
2) distribute that spark through the rotor to the terminals in the inner distributor cap and then out through the spark plug wires to the spark plugs, and
3) advance the timing of the spark as the RPMs rise.

I just tested my coil again to check on the first function, i.e. switching the coil on and off to create spark.

First, I put my timing light sensor on the high tension wire coming out of the bottom of the coil and started the engine. Even at idle the light fluttered consistent with the missing sparks in cylinders 3, 6, 7, & 8.

Then, I pulled the high tension wire from the coil and inserted a short spark plug wire. Of course, I couldn't start the engine because of no spark going to the plugs. So, I just cranked the engine while holding the other end of the spark plug wire near a head bolt enough to cause a spark with the timing light sensor on that wire. As I cranked the engine the spark and the timing light both fired consistently without any misses at all.

That would lead me to believe that the function of the distributor to turn the coil on and off is working just fine with no issues of the points that perform that function. It would also suggest that the coil is working fine although I was not able to test the coil independent of the distributor distribution function at an RPM higher than idle. Any problem with the coil at higher RPM would need to be tested some other way.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 35fordtn

Only missing under heavy load only with no relative relation to rpm’s sure sounds like carburetor power valve or accelerator plunger to me

If I still have problems after I get reliable and consistent spark to all plugs I will look to the carburetor. Until then, I'm relying on the fact that I just rebuilt the carburetor and installed new accelerator pump and power valve.

[1942deluxe]

Craig, any progress?

[Old Henry]

I decided that maybe I hadn't pushed all of the spark plug wires all the way into the distributor cap but far enough that each showed continuity with my ohm meter but maybe not far enough to carry a full spark. So I Marked all of the wires at the top of the socket, pulled out the most offending one, number six, measured the depth of the socket to compare the depth that the wire was pushed in and, sure enough, it was only about halfway. I then pulled out the rest of the wires, none of which were pushed all the way in, greased the sockets, and kept pushing each one till it got to the bottom hoping that would fix my problem. Unfortunately, although it eliminated the slight stumbling of #7 & 8, it didn't help number three and six which are still only sparking erratically. Oddly enough, both of those are next to each other in the distributor cap. I'm still waiting for a new cap to replace the one I have engraved terminal numbers on, hoping that will fix it. If not, I have no other ideas.

[1942deluxe]

Craig, my thought was that if you are getting proper voltage to the distributor it has to be something in the distributor. In the last year I've replaced wires on both my 42(has a 59 A-B engine and cap) along with my 48 coupe and know what a difficult job it is. When you get your new cap double check your plug wire locations. If you are still in the same spot, I'd send the distributor to Michael for the full rebuild. You will get it fixed although it can drive you nuts until you do....

[Old Henry]

I got the new distributor cap in and got all of the wires installed and checked continuity between the distributor terminals and the end of the wires. All is well except the center coil wire terminal. There is complete continuity to the outer ring of that terminal but the center rounded part had about 30 ohms resistance. The new cap I just took off had the same. The old cap that new one replaced had no resistance. I checked two other old caps. One had resistance and the other didn't.

Is resistance of that center contact point OK or should I keep buying new caps until I get one without any resistance?

[1942deluxe]

I'd try the new cap and see if there is difference.

[Brian]

I don't know if this has any relevance, and I only heard about it through a mate, an old friend, very clued up with flatheads, I respect anything he says, so take it for what it's worth.... His experience was with a new adapter plate for early distributor, the top mounted plate that replaces the original coil. He told me the centre carbon brush was made of plastic!! I know there's a lot of shonky repop parts out there, Craig, is your centre contact in your cap actually carbon?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Brian

Craig, is your centre contact in your cap actually carbon?

The center contact has the appearance of brass around the edge with a black domed insert that has the appearance of carbon. See photo. There is no resistance from the wire end to that brass part but 30 ohms resistance at the "carbon" center.

Does it matter? I hate to just "try the new cap" because it is such a chore to do so - reinstall the whole wire loom plus the generator and fan. I'd really rather get a definitive knowledgeable answer to whether that resistance in the "carbon" center matters.

[Brian]

Does it matter?

Well, it did to my mate; he couldn't get spark to transmit through plastic!

[Terry,OH]

The center terminal is carbon it touches the rotor and conducts the high voltage, from the coil to the rotor. To assist getting the plug wires all the way into the cap terminals add a very small amount of dielectric grease to a cotton swab and rub it in the cap, spark plug wire terminals. Check all nine of the plug wire terminals for conductivity about O. Ohms for the plugs. From the plug end of the spark plug wire to the inside of the distributor cap. Do this just before installing the cap to the distributor.

[jimTN]

The distributor point plate plunger was mentioned, have had problems with them in the past, removed it and ran a wire to the points. Also, the "brush" in your ign switch could also need cleaning. both of these items tend to cause intermittent problems or problems after put under a load.

[FlatheadTed]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

As a Experiment I once strung some welding wire across the the three bolt Diver and hung a HT wire off the coil down to the Rotor about 8mm gap ,the car started and ran fine ,,this could work on the road to get you home ,

[Old Henry]

Any other ideas? I'm at my wits end. I've never been so stumped by anything on this car in my life.

I had very high hopes that replacing the distributor cap would solve the problem since some had suggested that engraving the terminal numbers on the inside of the cap (which I've done for17 years) was the problem. It wasn't. Just like every other time I did something I thought would fix it, I hooked up the wiring harness but didn't install the generator or fan and took a short drive up a steep hill. All cylinders fired just fine. Then, after installing the generator and fan, I took a longer ride and the same old problem came back - cylinders #3 & 6 not firing consistently. I pulled the wires off the plugs and held them by a head bolt to see if they'd fire right not going through the plugs in case the plugs were the problem. The spark to the head bolts was erratic the same as through the plugs.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

As a Experiment I once strung some welding wire across the the three bolt Diver and hung a HT wire off the coil down to the Rotor about 8mm gap ,the car started and ran fine ,,this could work on the road to get you home ,

Fortunately, my problem is not bad enough to stop forward motion to get home. It just makes getting home, or even away from home, less fun because of the chronic hesitation.

[FlatheadTed]

My post is in answer to 67 the spark will jump ok ,Could you swap the offending wire to the one next to it and see if the problem moves ,Have you changed the coil yet ??

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

My post is in answer to 67 the spark will jump ok ,Could you swap the offending wire to the one next to it and see if the problem moves ,Have you changed the coil yet ??

Switching wires is, indeed, all there is left to do. Unfortunately, I don't have the crab cap that would make that so easy. I have the stock rabbit ears cap the means changing one wire means changing them all as far as I know. If I don't get any better ideas that's what I'll have to do. All wires are just brand new and were replaced in post #31.

I did try a new coil. It didn't help any.

[cas3]

Has it been mentioned to run the car in the dark to see if you see any spark leakage from the wires or terminals?

[Jack E/NJ]

>>>[timing] light fluttered consistent with the missing sparks in cylinders 3, 6, 7, & 8. >>>
>>>timing light both fired consistently without any misses at all [from coil]>>>>

>>>Switching wires is, indeed, all there is left to do. Unfortunately, I don't have the crab cap that would make that so easy. >>>


Pull only one plug wire out of the cap. Start with #3. Then insert a short piece of known good plug wire into the cap that can reach a ground to make a spark. Start the car with 7 cylinders connected to the distributor. Does the spark from the short wire to ground seem steady or not? Use a timing light if you can't tell how steady it is. Do the same with 6, 7 & 8 one at a time.


This should rule out or rule in the plug wires. It should also tell you if the problem is further upstream particularly the cap & rotor.You've already tested that the coil output seems steady. So it's gotta be in the spark distribution system rather than spark creation system.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by cas3

Has it been mentioned to run the car in the dark to see if you see any spark leakage from the wires or terminals?

Yes. I did that right from the start. (See post #1)
No obvious leaks from wires but a lot of the wires are hidden inside the conduits where there may have been leaks. Still, I eventually replaced them all.

[Old Henry]

Pull only one plug wire out of the cap. Start with #3. Then insert a short piece of known good plug wire into the cap that can reach a ground to make a spark. Start the car with 7 cylinders connected to the distributor. Does the spark from the short wire to ground seem steady or not? Use a timing light if you can't tell how steady it is. Do the same with 6, 7 & 8 one at a time.


This should rule out or rule in the plug wires. It should also tell you if the problem is further upstream particularly the cap & rotor.You've already tested that the coil output seems steady. So it's gotta be in the spark distribution system rather than spark creation system.[/QUOTE]

As I said in 3 posts ago (#70), I don't have a crab cap so can't swap wires around or pull one wire at a time from the cap to test it as would make sense. I will have to dismantle the entire wire loom to do anything like that. I may yet spring another $100 for another set of new wires like I just bought but wish there was a better way.

[1939mars]

You mention the generator and fan going on and off a few times in all of this and once that it ran fine before they went on. No idea how that could cause what you are seeing, but does taking that equipment off fix the problem?

[Jack E/NJ]

Sorry I don't mean swap wires around. Do you mean that you can't simply pull the #3 wire out of the cap's #3 receptacle?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 1939mars

You mention the generator and fan going on and off a few times in all of this and once that it ran fine before they went on. No idea how that could cause what you are seeing, but does taking that equipment off fix the problem?

I, likewise, had that same thought just today. That may well be my next move. Unfortunately, I can't drive very far without the water pumps and fan running but it's worth a try.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Sorry I don't mean swap wires around. Do you mean that you can't simply pull the #3 wire out of the cap's #3 receptacle?

Right. As you can see in the attached diagram, 42-44 had the crab distributor cap that would be easy to do what you suggest. But, the 45-48 has the sparkplug wires threaded through conduit, boots, and upper distributor cap, all before getting inserted into the lower distributor cap. Then that upper and lower cap are clamped together into one unit to attach to the distributor. No way to just pull one wire to do anything that I can see. You can't really do anything without removing the fan and generator and removing the entire wire loom.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Right. As you can see in the attached diagram, 42-44 had the crab distributor cap that would be easy to do what you suggest. But, the 45-48 has the sparkplug wires threaded through conduit, boots, and upper distributor cap, all before getting inserted into the lower distributor cap. Then that upper and lower cap are clamped together into one unit to attach to the distributor. No way to just pull one wire to do anything that I can see. You can't really do anything without removing the fan and generator and removing the entire wire loom.

[Jack E/NJ]

Aye!! I now feel your pain. If it was mine, I'd hafta run right out to the garage for my stash of used spark plug wires. Pull that cap cover and mess of wires crammed into those metal tubes. Then connect my old used wires directly to the cap and plugs to see if it runs OK.


BTW, I did away with those metal tubes on my helmet. Common sense suggests it's not good to tightly cram 4 or 5 high tension wires all together into a grounded metal tube. Replaced the tubes with black heater hose with a slightly bigger id for ease of assembly. If you don't look too close and maybe squint a little, you can hardly tell the difference.

[FlatheadTed]

I was thinking the same thing ,give it the old hevHo ,I set my cars up so service ablty is top .Machine the caps on the diver so they pull off join the Vac pipe with rubber ,,never run the Generator or ING wire through the pipes .ect I use just black rubber copper core .,I think I would be investing in a crab cap .Can you try someone elses Carb ,

[BoGu]

You mentioned in post #67 that it ran fine without the gen.
What charging voltage do you have when the problem shows up?

Can you just disconnect the generator electrically and see if this make difference (i.e. running on the battery only)?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by BoGu

You mentioned in post #67 that it ran fine without the gen.
What charging voltage do you have when the problem shows up?

Can you just disconnect the generator electrically and see if this make difference (i.e. running on the battery only)?

I'll check the charging voltage and let you know.
I will start with disconnecting the generator and see if that makes a difference before disconnecting the belts to stop the pulleys from turning.
I can't imagine any reason there would be a connection but I'm desperate to try anything right now (short of replacing my stock sparkplug wiring and distributor caps with something else.)

[Mart]

Craig, crab distributors are great bits of kit. My personal recommendation would be as already mentioned by others above.
Buy a crab cap.
Buy the conversion clip kit to hold the cap on.
Run the wires without the conduit. I bundle the wires for convenience using cable ties.
I had a set of custom wires made to my own specified lengths unfortunately I have no record of the lengths.

Lots of people use this setup and it works well for me at least, across 4 different vehicles.

As stated above ease of maintenance is the key.

If it completely cures your problem then maybe you could try running in conduit to see if it reverts to previous behaviour.

Mart.

[tubman]

It's always been amazing to me that the early V8's don't have more cross-fire problems with the metal spark plug conduits. As I've said before, I'm an "8BA guy" and I won't even run the early plug wire guides, only the later "clover leafs". Because of this, I agree with "Mart" on trying it without the conduit.

[1942deluxe]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Craig, a couple of random thoughts. On my 48 this past spring it would idle fantastic but almost immediately bog down and run rough on throttle. Changed distributor, new wires, plugs, rotor. Thought perhaps fuel problem so changed carb, fuel pump, and fuel line. No difference. Running a NAPA coil. Replaced that and problem solved. Good readings on the old one but apparently once it heated up it started failing. P/N on that is a IC7 and you bypass the resistor as it has an internal one. Understand # 3 and 6 are the cylinders with the misfire? I'm sure you already have checked but recheck they are in the right holes on the cap. I almost did that on one of mine. I have a Charlie NY fully rebuilt distributor and a Skip rebuilt coil I could lend you if you wanted to try them.

[FlatheadTed]

Lending is a good option ,he changed the coil but was it new ?
I have been running the tubes for years , you get a little Neon affect ., I saw the current offering of HT wires ,nothing soldered ect ?

[WBrown]

Originally Posted by Mart

Craig, crab distributors are great bits of kit. My personal recommendation would be as already mentioned by others above.
Buy a crab cap.
Buy the conversion clip kit to hold the cap on.
Run the wires without the conduit. I bundle the wires for convenience using cable ties.
I had a set of custom wires made to my own specified lengths unfortunately I have no record of the lengths.

Lots of people use this setup and it works well for me at least, across 4 different vehicles.

As stated above ease of maintenance is the key.

If it completely cures your problem then maybe you could try running in conduit to see if it reverts to previous behaviour.

Mart.

IF, you change to a crab cap configuration, be sure and use the correct rotor. The "rabbit ear" rotor is not compatible with a crab cap.

[1942deluxe]

On the crab (42) you will also need different length wires to my knowledge.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 1939mars

You mention the generator and fan going on and off a few times in all of this and once that it ran fine before they went on. No idea how that could cause what you are seeing, but does taking that equipment off fix the problem?

Originally Posted by BoGu

You mentioned in post #67 that it ran fine without the gen.

Can you just disconnect the generator electrically and see if this make difference (i.e. running on the battery only)?

I disconnected the generator but it didn't help any.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by BoGu

What charging voltage do you have when the problem shows up?

The charging voltage is 6.8 volts.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

. . . he changed the coil but was it new ?

I put in a new 6 volt coil. It didn't help.

[Old Henry]

Today I thought I'd try a different rotor. It's cheap and easy to swap out.
When I took the new one out that I just put in I noticed that the brass contact that transfers the spark to the distributor terminals was loose on the rivet that connected it to the stainless steel part that ran on the center distributor post. I was so excited that such was the problem and quickly installed the new one bought from NAPA just today. Nothing any better.

[Old Henry]

I've responded before to suggestions to scrap the stock cap and wire conduits. That certainly sounds like a probable fix to my problem. The reasons I'm hesitant are several:
1) This car has run reliably 76 years and 311,000 miles on the original stock system.
2) I take great pride whenever anyone wants to see under the hood to be able to tell them that everything under there is exactly like it was when the car was new - everything.

I admit that it seems that every possible cause of my problem has been eliminated except the brand new spark plug wires that I just installed and I'm focusing again on them as well. I have considered all suggestions. Whatever I do next regarding them is going to be very difficult and time consuming but not impossible. So, I will do something. I'm not giving up yet.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 1942deluxe

Craig, a couple of random thoughts. On my 48 this past spring it would idle fantastic but almost immediately bog down and run rough on throttle. Changed distributor, new wires, plugs, rotor. Thought perhaps fuel problem so changed carb, fuel pump, and fuel line. No difference. Running a NAPA coil. Replaced that and problem solved. Good readings on the old one but apparently once it heated up it started failing.

My problem is the same right from a cold start to warmed up.

[Lawrie]

Craig , I eagerly await your post when you have found the problem , Keep at it.
Lawrie

[40 Deluxe]

Could the replacement distributor have the rotor out of time? That is, could the rotor tip be in between the contacts in the cap when the coil fires? This could cause the spark to jump to ground or to the wrong cylinder. Who knows what that poor distributor has undergone in its life!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Could the replacement distributor have the rotor out of time? That is, could the rotor tip be in between the contacts in the cap when the coil fires? This could cause the spark to jump to ground or to the wrong cylinder. Who knows what that poor distributor has undergone in its life!

I don't know how the rotor could be that far off. It is attached to the end of the cam shaft. If it was, all cylinders would misfire, not just the same one or two consistently.

There are a lot of things that could cause sparks to fly willy nilly all over the place but 6-7 of my cylinders fire perfectly every time. It is mostly #6 that misfires consistently and sometimes #3. Whatever the poor distributor has undergone in its life was fixed by Ford when they rebuilt it. Then Michael set the dwell and timing and replaced the condenser. The distributor shaft has no play in it either side to side nor in and out (both of which I've suffered before).

[Mart]

While respecting your desire to keep all original, the overriding aim is to fix the problem. If you try the crab type cap and rotor and no conduits and it is then perfectly ok, you can then have more confidence when troubleshooting. You can then try and reintroduce the original parts step by step until the problem comes back. the last thing you replaced will be the problem item.

Changing the cap and leads to the crab type will be a valuable troubleshooting tool.

Borrowing a good running distributor from someone will also prove something.

Could you be suffering from burned valves on the cylinders concerned? How about a bad condenser? (not cylinder specific, I guess).

Temporarily changing away from stock as a diagnostic tool is not a bad thing.

I await with interest what you find.

Mart.

[Terry,OH]

suggest you charge your battery then take it one of the local auto parts stores and have it load checked to eliminate a possible problem there.
IMO The way Ford made the car it should run properly. Keep the rabbit ear cap and plug wire conduits.

[Als48]

Craig, Is there any way to tell if your distributor cap is seating properly? I had a cap once that failed to seat correctly and it caused the exact problem you are seeing. It seemed to be cocked slightly when attached, causing the rotor to not fire two of the cylinders due to an enlarged gap at some of the inner terminals. That would also cause the rotor to be too close to some of the other terminals, which might cause the rotor to make contact and loosen the brass tip, as you have seen. Possible?

Al Hook

[Jack E/NJ]

^^^
2x

[1942deluxe]

Al, really good suggestion. I have NOS Ford on mine which fit really well but I've read the aftermarket caps may need modified slightly to fit correctly.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

While respecting your desire to keep all original, the overriding aim is to fix the problem. If you try the crab type cap and rotor and no conduits and it is then perfectly ok, you can then have more confidence when troubleshooting. You can then try and reintroduce the original parts step by step until the problem comes back. the last thing you replaced will be the problem item.

Changing the cap and leads to the crab type will be a valuable troubleshooting tool.

Temporarily changing away from stock as a diagnostic tool is not a bad thing.

I await with interest what you find.

Mart.

I had all of those same thoughts yesterday and will resort to that if necessary.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Als48

Craig, Is there any way to tell if your distributor cap is seating properly? I had a cap once that failed to seat correctly and it caused the exact problem you are seeing. It seemed to be cocked slightly when attached, causing the rotor to not fire two of the cylinders due to an enlarged gap at some of the inner terminals. That would also cause the rotor to be too close to some of the other terminals, which might cause the rotor to make contact and loosen the brass tip, as you have seen. Possible?

Al Hook

I will check that. Makes sense that could be the problem.

[Old Henry]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Here's something that doesn't seem right to me but may be normal.
Everywhere any of these new sparkplug wires I just installed are bent the outer layer of insulation is cracked. (See photos) Such is particularly so inside the distributor cap where they are really bent. Is that normal or could it cause a problem?

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Here's something that doesn't seem right to me but may be normal.
Everywhere any of these new sparkplug wires I just installed are bent the outer layer of insulation is cracked. (See photos) Such is particularly so inside the distributor cap where they are really bent. Is that normal or could it cause a problem?

"new sparkplug wires"???

[Brian]

There's your problem! I know you've metered your leads at zero ohms, however the HT current is going to take path of least resistance. These cracks in the insulation provide the escape route for the current. use decent leads.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Brian

There's your problem! I know you've metered your leads at zero ohms, however the HT current is going to take path of least resistance. These cracks in the insulation provide the escape route for the current. use decent leads.

I bought these spark plug wires from CW Moss. Is there any better place to buy them to get a better product? I've just emailed CW Moss about the problem and hope they do the right thing and replace them with better or refund my money so I can find better.

[1942deluxe]

Craig, those look like the Dennis Carpenter wires I have on both my 42 and 48. Mine cracked slightly but nowhere near the extent yours are. I lubed mine with either WD 40 or silicone spray during the installation. The original wires were brown 46-48.

[jimTN]

You definitely would be better off with the crap setup. You will need a new rotor for the crab, the crab cap and the snaps & pins to attach it. Most vendors carry all of it. No sharp bends with the crab.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 1942deluxe

Craig, those look like the Dennis Carpenter wires I have on both my 42 and 48. Mine cracked slightly but nowhere near the extent yours are. I lubed mine with either WD 40 or silicone spray during the installation. The original wires were brown 46-48.

Yes. They do look identical to the ones being sold on Dennis Carpenter's site. Maybe they're better than the CW Moss ones. I'll probably wait to see what CW Moss is going to do to decide.

[Old Henry]

This was duplicate of previous so deleted.

[tubman]

Packard 440 from "The Brillman Company". If that works, you've found the problem and can work forwards on getting the crappy reproduction wires to work.

[j ripper]

Belden 7mm metallic core wire from Napa Auto parts is my go to. Buy X amount of feet and necessary terminals and make my own.

[Bored&Stroked]

I always make my own wires - because at least I then know the quality of the wire that I buy as well as the conductor ends.

I've used Packard 440 for years, but might look at the Belden 7mm metallic core wire that was mentioned up above. You can purchase high-quality ends from a variety of places. I buy the high-quality ends from MSD or Taylor (I'm sure others have them) - and crimp them with the proper dies/pliers.

If I saw those cracks in my wires, I'd be concerned and would not be running them. Also, as a test, you can make ONE wire and replace the existing ones for the cylinders that are not firing and see if you see a change.

If you're running the steel spark plug wire tubes (with the wires inside of them) - then the quality of the wire is SUPER important. Having all four wires running through steel tubes requires that the wires absolutely have no chance for leakage.

Best of luck!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by j ripper

Belden 7mm metallic core wire from Napa Auto parts is my go to. Buy X amount of feet and necessary terminals and make my own.

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I always make my own wires - because at least I then know the quality of the wire that I buy as well as the conductor ends.

I've used Packard 440 for years, but might look at the Belden 7mm metallic core wire that was mentioned up above. You can purchase high-quality ends from a variety of places. I buy the high-quality ends from MSD or Taylor (I'm sure others have them) - and crimp them with the proper dies/pliers.


Best of luck!

Thanks for the suggestion to make my own. I don't have any problem with the idea as long as they can be authentic so have two questions:

1) Can the authentic cotton braid copper core wire with the smooth brown outer surface with no writing be bought by the foot anywhere? (I haven't been able to find it anywhere.)

2) Are the soldered ends that go into the distributor cap available. (I haven't been able to find them.) Those can not be crimped on. They must be soldered on. (See photo)

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

. . . as a test, you can make ONE wire and replace the existing ones for the cylinders that are not firing and see if you see a change.

Unfortunately, with my stock 47 rabbit ears distributor cap I can't just change one wire without disassembling the entire wire loom.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Thanks for the suggestion to make my own. I don't have any problem with the idea as long as they can be authentic so have two questions:

1) Can the authentic cotton braid copper core wire with the smooth brown outer surface with no writing be bought by the foot anywhere? (I haven't been able to find it anywhere.)

2) Are the soldered ends that go into the distributor cap available. (I haven't been able to find them.) Those can not be crimped on. They must be soldered on. (See photo)

[FortyNiner]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Thanks for the suggestion to make my own. I don't have any problem with the idea as long as they can be authentic so have two questions:

1) Can the authentic cotton braid copper core wire with the smooth brown outer surface with no writing be bought by the foot anywhere? (I haven't been able to find it anywhere.)

2) Are the soldered ends that go into the distributor cap available. (I haven't been able to find them.) Those can not be crimped on. They must be soldered on. (See photo)

Rhode Island Wire has these items: http://riwire.com

[larrys40]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

www.thirdgenauto.com

844-327-5988

When you get it back, bolt it on, have fun.

Seth , Michael’s are the same. I just installed a set from him on a customer car and they cracked and are very inflexible.
In fact they are all worse than they use to be.
Larry

[Lawrie]

I,m going to male a set for my 33, 6v, Im going to use a modern 7mm set that have a tough fibre core covered by a carbon impregnated sleave,, I have tried them on the test bench and they seem fine.
I got them from summit.
Lawrie

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by larrys40

I recently installed a set of the brown wires on a customer car. They are terrible in flexibility and yes they crack. If they are the brown wires they are the same from all the suppliers .
I’m very experience at it and they are a bear plain and simple. I’ve had an easier time doing V12’s.

I don’t know they answer for authentic brown wires unless you want to paint the ends and put the original style crimp end on packard 4-40 wire which is very flexible.
Please advise if someone has a good answer on this

Yours is the best information I've received, to know that all brown wires come from the same place and all crack the same as I've got. I will do exactly as you suggest - use the Packard 440 wire using the end connectors from my brown wire set. I'll unsolder the distributor ends from the old wire and solder them onto the new wire. I'll remove the stock sparkplug connectors from the old wire and install them on the new wire. I'll paint the exposed section of the Packard wire with brown paint to match the stock wires. Hope it works.

[Old Henry]

I know, I know, I hate this never ending story as much as anyone but I have just got to solve this mystery or die trying so I still need your help.

At least another clue has manifested itself:

Originally Posted by Als48

Craig, Is there any way to tell if your distributor cap is seating properly? I had a cap once that failed to seat correctly and it caused the exact problem you are seeing. It seemed to be cocked slightly when attached, causing the rotor to not fire two of the cylinders due to an enlarged gap at some of the inner terminals. That would also cause the rotor to be too close to some of the other terminals, which might cause the rotor to make contact and loosen the brass tip, as you have seen. Possible?

Al Hook

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I had all of those same thoughts yesterday and will check that.

So, yesterday I replaced the gasket between the distributor cap and the distributor base. My old one was in pretty bad shape - all soft and lumpy and uneven. To my great surprise that fixed my problem. I drove 9 miles up the canyon, with all 8 cylinders firing without a skip no matter what I tried to duplicate the problem, all the way to Vivian Park where I turned around and headed back. I was elated, euphoric, thrilled, happy, composing the glorious post I was going to share as my final chapter in this saga as soon as I got home, until a few blocks from home when the grim reaper phantom raised its head again with all of the same old symptoms of cylinder #6 misfiring along with some others. I was devastated. How could it be??? It certainly turned me away from a wiring problem. I couldn't figure out how all wires could function perfectly for 17 miles then fail again identically to before I straightened the distributor cap.

Any ideas?

[petehoovie]

Shot in the dark....Water spray from leaky water pump...

[Old Henry]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by petehoovie

Shot in the dark....Water spray from leaky water pump...

A fair shot, but, I didn't see any water at all and the problem was the same with the cold start this morning as it was after the warmed up drive last night.

[47topless]

In my '47, I was having trouble making a good connection of the rotor to the cap. The gasket you are referring to, between the cap and distributor body, was in bad shape. It caused the cap to sit ever so slightly off on the body. I ordered a new one but, while I waited for it to arrive, I just removed the old gasket, reinstalled the cap and it solved the problem. I understand that the gasket is only there to keep water from getting in the distributor. I believe that now.
Phil

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 47topless

In my '47, I was having trouble making a good connection of the rotor to the cap. The gasket you are referring to, between the cap and distributor body, was in bad shape. It caused the cap to sit ever so slightly off on the body. I ordered a new one but, while I waited for it to arrive, I just removed the old gasket, reinstalled the cap and it solved the problem. I understand that the gasket is only there to keep water from getting in the distributor. I believe that now.
Phil

Before I installed the new gasket I did the same thing - took the old one out and installed the cap without a gasket. Worked great. So, I put the new gasket in and worked better than it has for over two months . . . but only for 17 miles.

I'm afraid to run without the gasket for two reasons: 1) I'm afraid the rotor end will be too high and hit the cap terminals. 2) I go through some pretty wet storms on my road trips and would hate to get any water in the cap.

[35fordtn]

If you want the correct brown wires they all from all vendors come from the same source. I recently installed a set on a 48 I feel your pain as it’s not all that easy but even though the surface convering is prone to cracking it has not presented me personally with a functionality issue

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

While respecting your desire to keep all original, the overriding aim is to fix the problem. If you try the crab type cap and rotor and no conduits and it is then perfectly ok, you can then have more confidence when troubleshooting. You can then try and reintroduce the original parts step by step until the problem comes back. the last thing you replaced will be the problem item.

Changing the cap and leads to the crab type will be a valuable troubleshooting tool.

Temporarily changing away from stock as a diagnostic tool is not a bad thing.

I await with interest what you find.

Mart.

I'm ready to do this to test my current sparkplug wires before replacing them.

Where do I get what I need for this - the cap, the rotor, the clips and whatever else I'll need? Will the wires I now have be long enough for diagnostic operation?

[1942deluxe]

Craig, you'll need the 21A distributor cap and rotor along with plug wires. Looks like Third Gen has all of that in stock. Not sure if the 46-48 spark plug conduits will work either. You may have to route the wires another way or modify the conduits if you elect that route as a permanent solution. Believe the 42 wires are color coded. The clips would be shorter too, Michael may have them also.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 1942deluxe

Craig, you'll need the 21A distributor cap and rotor along with plug wires. Looks like Third Gen has all of that in stock. Not sure if the 46-48 spark plug conduits will work either. You may have to route the wires another way or modify the conduits if you elect that route as a permanent solution. Believe the 42 wires are color coded. The clips would be shorter too, Michael may have them also.

Thanks for the info.

This will be for diagnostic only. I won't run through the conduits. When I have 9 known good wires I'll then thread them through the conduits, boots, and upper cap into the lower cap and hope it works as well.

[Old Henry]

Ok. I tossed the spark plug conduits and two part rabbit ears cap and installed a new crab cap and rotor then plugged the wires I've been using (that were suspect at one time) into the crab cap and onto the plugs. Worked great for 9 miles then the old skipping returned. I thought maybe it was because I didn't put boots/nipples on the wires where they were plugged into the distributor cap and was driving through a blinding blizzard and water was getting in and shorting. So, I left it overnight to dry good and took it out again tonight. Immediately cylinders were misfiring. Came back to the garage, put my timing light on each wire and it was the same old pattern - # 6 skipping the most, #3 next and #7 & 8 a little. So I swapped the #2 and #6 wires that are both the same length and fired it up expecting the problem to move with the wire to #2. It did not. It stayed with #6. Just in case it was the #6 sparkplug, I pulled the wire from the plug and held it near a head bolt. The skipping was coming out of the wire end - so, it's not the spark plug.

What is it?

[kiwi nz]

You have done everything except swap the distributor, at least I think so. Too many pages to go back and check, but it seems to me the whole ignition system needs work.
Starting with the distributor.
It is a long time since I have had a problem this vexing, but when I have had it has always been " the assumption, the overlooked or the misunderstood".
Guilty of them all your Honour.

[Old Henry]

So, we complete the full circle back to where I began over two months ago with my routine 10,000 maintenance replacement of the spark plugs and contact points in my distributor. The peaks on the cam were too worn down to properly set the gap on the points so I bought a Ford Authorized Remanufactured distributor from South Side Obsolete. It looked brand new but it was an older remanufacture so I installed new points and sent it to Michael at ThirdGen to check it out. He put it on his machine, adjusted the dwell and replaced the condenser and returned it to me. Just like every time I've ever tried something new, the engine ran perfect after installing that distributor . . . for a very short time. So, I bought new spark plug wires and installed them thinking my old ones must have been the problem. Again, the engine worked perfect . . . for a very short time before starting to misfire again. We suspected the coil so I removed the coil wire to the distributor, plugged in a short coil wire and put next to a head bolt - perfect. Never skipped a beat. I even replaced the coil but that made no difference. So, we went back to focusing on the new wires as being bad until tonight when I was able to switch good ones with suspected bad ones and the problem stayed with the cylinder, not the wire.

Is there anything that I haven't checked or done to the distributor that I have missed that I should do? I can't think of anything else. Please help.

[Mart]

I am sorry, but I have reached limits of my experience on this.
Let's think it through. Normally problems with a cylinder dropping out can be associated with the HT side of things. You have changed the cap and rotor and the problem still seems to be there. There can be problems with worn bushings in the distributor that can lead to a miss on one cylinder, but I have only witnessed this on a 4 cylinder with single points (not Ford).

The only thing I am not too sure about is the mention of a blizzard and also more cylinders not firing properly. Leaving it until next morning probably wouldn't allow it to dry out properly.

I don't really have anything I can suggest, you have tried most things.

Do you know anyone nearby that would be able to loan you a complete distributor and coil off a known proven good running car?

It could be that the problem lies with the carb or a vacuum leak or something like that, and all the shenanigans with the distributor have been a red herring.

I hope you can eventually get to the bottom of it and can post a positive result at some time.

Mart.

[Jack E/NJ]

Craig>>Again, the engine worked perfect . . . for a very short time before starting to misfire again.>>>>same old pattern - # 6 skipping the most, #3 next and #7 & 8 a little.>>>


Mart>>>It could be that the problem lies with the carb or a vacuum leak or something like that, and all the shenanigans with the distributor have been a red herring.>>>




Firing order with emphasis on problem cylinders

1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2

[47topless]

Originally Posted by kiwi nz

You have done everything except swap the distributor, at least I think so. Too many pages to go back and check, but it seems to me the whole ignition system needs work.
Starting with the distributor.
It is a long time since I have had a problem this vexing, but when I have had it has always been " the assumption, the overlooked or the misunderstood".
Guilty of them all your Honour.

Great advice. This, you need to do. From a personal perspective, at my age (75) my time has become much more valuable than my money.
I recently had a vexing problem with my newly rebuilt distributor that just could not be solved. I purchased a new rebuild from Gen 3, bolted it on and off I went. PROBLEM SOLVED!!!.
Good Luck

[BoGu]

In post 31 you mentioned a smashed plug.
This brings up some memories about a weird plug failure. Probably don't explain what you have but anyway;



Once upon a time a i had a Simca 1100 special (4-cyl 1300cc engine) that had a weird ignition fault.
It was running on 3 cylinders on and off.
I checked which cylinder out by lifting spark plug wire one by one.
The engine bogged down running on only two cylinders when lifting any of cyl 1 ,2 or no 3 wires. But when lifting cyl no 4 wire, a little, it suddenly fired up on all 4 cylinders! What?!
It turned out to be a faulty sparkplug.


My opinion over what happened:

The plug must had some internal isolator fault that the normal high tension voltage flashed over. But when the plug wire was lifted a little, there was a flash in air from wire end to plug terminal. It takes some voltage to create this flash so the voltage stress on the plug decreases accodingly The high tension voltage is shared by this air spark in series with the plug gap/ isolator fault and apparently the voltage stress in the plug decreased so it jumped over plug gap as it should, and not over the isolator fault, and the engine ran fine.
The isolator fault could have been an internal crack or a porcelain impurity.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Firing order with emphasis on problem cylinders

1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2

I recognized this pattern long ago which suggested a cock-eyed distributor cap. I removed the old worn gasket and installed the cap without one just to be sure it was absolutely flat. Again, it worked perfect . . . for a very short time when the old missing pattern returned. Now I've got all new crab cap with same old missing pattern.

What else could that pattern suggest?

[slowforty]

Not to hijack this thread, But I had a bad Ignition Resistor that took me quite a while to diagnose, The car is a 40 Deluxe,(Helmut Dist) that I have owned for 35 years. The car would run and start well but would not run over 60mph (After about 20 minutes of running,so it was operating temp). I replaced the carb. distributor. wires, and coil with no results. Finally I was told to strap out the igniton resistor, Bingo! Issue solved by replacing the resistor.

[Jack E/NJ]

Craig>>>Again, the engine worked perfect . . . for a very short time before starting to misfire again. >>> problem stayed with the cylinder, not the wire.>>>>What else could that pattern suggest?>>>


Nothing --- based on all you've tried and observed so far. Always same cylinders. So tend to agree with Mart. Something other than ignition. Might be sticky valve stems after getting warmed up. Since it's easy, maybe try running some MMO in the carb & tank for a while to see what happens.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by slowforty

Not to hijack this thread, But I had a bad Ignition Resistor that took me quite a while to diagnose, The car is a 40 Deluxe,(Helmut Dist) that I have owned for 35 years. The car would run and start well but would not run over 60mph (After about 20 minutes of running,so it was operating temp). I replaced the carb. distributor. wires, and coil with no results. Finally I was told to strap out the igniton resistor, Bingo! Issue solved by replacing the resistor.

Thanks for the thought. I have bypassed my coil resistor several times to see if it makes any difference. The problem is actually worse without the resistor which surprised me. It certainly didn't get any better bypassing the resistor.

[flatford8]

Craig, I apologize if I missed this in previous posts but, have you tried moving the spark plugs to different cylinders?......I believe I read that you are using Autolite 216’s?......I’ve had issues with Autolites with the electrode pulling out of the plug while removing the boot. This has happened with 1 or 2 plugs in two different sets of eight. I switched to Champion H10’s but will probably use NGK on my next go ‘round. I realize these probably aren’t staying with your “as built” philosophy but maybe it will help you find the problem.
Good Luck..........Mark

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by flatford8

Craig, I apologize if I missed this in previous posts but, have you tried moving the spark plugs to different cylinders?......I believe I read that you are using Autolite 216’s?......I’ve had issues with Autolites with the electrode pulling out of the plug while removing the boot. This has happened with 1 or 2 plugs in two different sets of eight. I switched to Champion H10’s but will probably use NGK on my next go ‘round. I realize these probably aren’t staying with your “as built” philosophy but maybe it will help you find the problem.
Good Luck..........Mark

Thanks for your suggestion. Early on I switched spark plugs around and it made no difference. In fact, I pulled the wires off the spark plugs and held them near head bolts and the intermittent sparking is coming out of the end of the wires not even attached to the spark plugs. So, the spark plugs are OK. The wires are OK. The coil is OK. The distributor seems OK. I don't know what's wrong.

I've sent some questions to Michael at third GEN to see what he thinks about my distributor he worked on.

[Als48]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Craig, Have you done a compression test when the engine has been misfiring? That would be good information to have. Dont' remember you mentioning whether you had or not.

Al Hook

[alchemy]

I’m a complete hack, but I’ve heard that 87 percent of ignition problems are the carburetor.

[Jack E/NJ]

alchemy>> I’ve heard that 87 percent of ignition problems are the carburetor.>>>


Might be if half the carb is dedicated by the manifold to feed cylinders 8-6-3-7. Firing order with emphasis on problem cylinders.
1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2

[Mart]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

alchemy>> I’ve heard that 87 percent of ignition problems are the carburetor.>>>


Might be if half the carb is dedicated by the manifold to feed cylinders 8-6-3-7. Firing order with emphasis on problem cylinders.
1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2

No, Jack. each side of the carb feeds alternate numbers in the firing order.

One side: 1,4,6,7
Other side: 5,8,3,2

If you look at those groups of numbers they both contain the two end cylinders from one side and the middle cylinders from the other.

So it is unlikely that one side of the carb is at fault.

[cmbrucew]

Sitting in the drivers seat the right hand side is 1234, the left side is 5678 from front to back. The crab cap should be numbered. One wire at a time.
Bruce

[FlatheadTed]

Looking at Henry first post he says the cam was so worn he couldn't set the points, in all the years I have been doing distributors I have never seen this I have only seen points that are badly made and dont set up ,he said it was running fine prior .They stopped doing this on Air Craft because of introduced faults .I have told this story before but I got called out to to a 36 v8 were it had a bad mis he changed carbs ect he .I took my Carb my dizzy wires (known to be good ) the miss was still there on # 6 it compression checked good, I pulled a plug and noticed the valve not going down he pulled the manifold and the top Guide keeper was stuck in the spring . he assembled it and said it still had a mis I suggested that he had introduced dirt into the crab, sure enough! Ted

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Als48

Craig, Have you done a compression test when the engine has been misfiring? That would be good information to have. Dont' remember you mentioning whether you had or not.

Al Hook

I hadn't done a compression test but just did. It showed the following pressures in each cylinder:

1-90
2-90
3-90
4-100
5-90
6-96
7-95
8-95

Any clues there?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I've sent some questions to Michael at third GEN to see what he thinks about my distributor he worked on.

I haven't had any response from Michael regarding my distributor that he worked on to see if he thinks anything could be wrong with it causing my chronic missing problem. Hopefully, he'll respond soon. I've only got three weeks to solve this problem before I have to put Old Henry in a coma for two years while my wife and I go to serve voluntarily in the Philippines for two years.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

It could be that the problem lies with the carb or a vacuum leak or something like that, and all the shenanigans with the distributor have been a red herring.

I hope you can eventually get to the bottom of it and can post a positive result at some time.

Mart.

I just rebuilt the carburetor at the beginning of all of this and it seems to be working just fine. Any carburetor problems I've ever had caused gradual or sudden loss of power, not this "stumbling" that I'm getting. Have I missed something?

[tubman]

This is really "off the wall", but try running it without the air cleaner for a while. I had a problem with an occasional "stumble" on my Corvette and finally tracked it down to a restrictive air cleaner. It drove me crazy for almost 2 years until I found the problem.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by tubman

This is really "off the wall", but try running it without the air cleaner for a while. I had a problem with an occasional "stumble" on my Corvette and finally tracked it down to a restrictive air cleaner. It drove me crazy for almost 2 years until I found the problem.

Thanks for the idea. I have actually been running it without the air cleaner for a week. I just put it back on. No difference.

[Jack E/NJ]

Craig>>>Again, the engine worked perfect . . . for a very short time before starting to misfire again.


Still might be sticky valve stems after getting warmed up. Try running MMO thru carb & mixed in tank to see what happens.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Craig>>>Again, the engine worked perfect . . . for a very short time before starting to misfire again.


Still might be sticky valve stems after getting warmed up. Try running MMO thru carb & mixed in tank to see what happens.

Will do. Thanks for the reminder.

[Brian]

Back in the '70's, I remember reading an article in a NZ Hot Rod magazine about the editor having trouble getting his flathead to run sweet....tried everything to no avail, culminating with removing the intake manifold and applying grease to both sides of the gasket and rebolting it down which cured the problem! Now, i dunno if that is your problem here, but that article has always stuck in my mind, and I always grease that gasket when fitting.

[FlatheadTed]

I dont see any issues with the compression ,.rebuilt carb with ?? ,Dont rule out the carb they can show the same symptoms as electrical.

[Jack E/NJ]

Brian>>tried everything to no avail, culminating with removing the intake manifold and applying grease to both sides of the gasket and rebolting it down which cured the problem!>>

Also a good possibility. IMO, smearing wheel bearing grease on all 4 gasket, block & manifold surfaces is where it's at (except exhaust).



As a quickie test for vacuum leaks --- when engine seems to be missing, try spraying WD-40 or smearing grease on manifold edges around problem cylinders to see if it tries to smooth out.

[slowforty]

There was a story years ago about a Flathead with a strange miss. It turned out to be a blocked exhaust manifold , It was full of carbon. I know this is reaching but just a suggestion.

[dean333]

This has to be one of the longest threads ever

[Jack E/NJ]

Craig>>>I've only got three weeks to solve this problem before I have to put Old Henry in a coma for two years while my wife and I go to serve voluntarily in the Philippines>>>
.
dean333>>>This has to be one of the longest threads ever>>>


Yeah, we only have three weeks to catch up to Vic Piano's 112-page & counting "What I did on my lunch hour" thread.

[Don]

Didn’t one of the early post say he monitered the spark and was missing the spark on a couple cylinders,look like the problem would be in the distributor rather than the engine ?
I have a old sun machine I’ve spun dist up and seen it miss a few flashes,just like it would when on the vehicle,if I remember,the points spring were weak if using a inferior set or older set.I vote for a troubled distributor!!

[Jack E/NJ]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Yeah. But I think that was before the distributor was serviced/changed.

[cadillac512]

No, still did it after dist service.

[1942deluxe]

I still think in the distributor for what it's worth.

[Jack E/NJ]

Might be? Or cam gear might be worn especially if fiber?

[Old Henry]

I feel like I made a major breakthrough today in the mystery!

As I was driving home from the 3° in Boise today (not in Old Henry) the thought came to me, "What if the stumbling problem of the engine is not an ignition problem? (Several have suggested such and that the ignition problem is just a "red herring") How could I eliminate the ignition as a cause of the stumbling problem?" Then it came to me. It was such a simple idea I'm surprised no one ever suggested it. Here it is:

I would just unplug the wire from the spark plug of the offending #6 misfiring cylinder! If the engine smooths out - that would prove that the stumbling is being caused by that cylinder misfiring. But, if it does not smooth out - that would prove that the stumbling of the engine is caused by something other than the misfiring cylinder!

So . . . I did it. I started up the engine and checked with the timing light that #6 cylinder was misfiring. Then I unplugged the wire to #6 spark plug and let it just hang out in the air. Then I took off for a drive. Much to my surprise, the engine ran just as badly totally without cylinder #6 as it did with it, just a little less power is all. Otherwise - just as rough! After 10 miles I stopped and plugged #6 back in resulting in more power but no more or less stumbling. Another 10 miles unplugged it and another 10 miles plugged it back in with same result. Only the overall power level was affected - not the stumbling!

Is my conclusion accurate that such test eliminates the misfiring cylinder as the cause of the stumbling engine or am I missing something???

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Craig>>>Again, the engine worked perfect . . . for a very short time before starting to misfire again.


Still might be sticky valve stems after getting warmed up. Try running MMO thru carb & mixed in tank to see what happens.

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Will do. Thanks for the reminder.

Today I did it. I added 6 oz. of MMO in the 15 gal. gas tank and filled it up. Then, while idling the engine, I drizzled 4 oz. of MMO into the carburetor - both sides. I was hoping there would be some improvement in the 30 miles I drove after that. I thought I sensed some smoothing out at times but not lasting. If my engine stumbling problem is from a sticky valve, hopefully the MMO will fix it and I'll be able to put Old Henry down for his 2 year nap knowing that he'll sleep peacefully.

[corvette8n]

Hey Craig, if you see any old flathead Fords in the Philippines post some pictures.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by corvette8n

Hey Craig, if you see any old flathead Fords in the Philippines post some pictures.

Will do.

[Terry,OH]

Does the problem show up after the engine is warm or soon after ? Does the engine run fine when cold ?

[kurt v]

take the carb completely apart and clean it

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

Does the problem show up after the engine is warm or soon after ? Does the engine run fine when cold ?

The problem is always there – hot or cold – far or near.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by kurt v

take the carb completely apart and clean it

I did that before all of this started and replaced all the replaceable parts but will probably do it again.

[Old Henry]

I hooked up my vacuum gauge and drove the car around looking for anything unusual like bouncing, etc. to indicate a valve problem. All was smooth and normal even though the engine ran as rough as usual.

[Brian]

I've posted this before, but here we go again....some years back my trusty old 35 would fire up on 8 cylinders, but the longer it ran, the more ragged it ran, until it would actually die. i was convinced it was electrical; as the components heat up they misbehave, accordingly I changed condensers, distributors, coils , you name it, all to no effect. Sparkplugs all looked the same, compression test showed all cylinders within 5 psi of each other, vacuum gauge was pretty steady at around 20 in/mercurcury. This went on for months....finally, I pulled the inlet manifold and plugged the heat risers on each side. Put it back together; viola!! what a beautiful thing!! The heat riser passage inside the manifold had obviously blown out, as the engine heated up, the crack would open up and contaminate the incoming fuel /air charge.
I dunno if this is your problem Craig, its way out left field, but why not pull the manifold, replace the gasket with a generous slathering of grease as I talked about in an earlier post, insert a coupla thin shims over the heat riser passages [which can subsequently be removed if this doesn't cure your problem], tighten it all down and try it?

One of the wonderful things about flathead Fords is their basic simplicity, they are basic, aren't they?, until you experience something like this. Ain't it fun?

[Terry,OH]

Watching the flashes from a timing light at idle, (either in line or clamp on type) can indicate which cylinder has a firing problems. Look for missing flashes using a good cylinder as reference. If all the cylinders appear the same, what was your vacuum reading at idle? Should be very close to 20 maybe slightly lower like 18 and very steady. While you have the vacuum gauge attached adjust carburetor idle mixture screws, while enging is warm,g for the highest and steadiest vacuum reading and engine running smoothest. The screws should be about 3/4 to 1 turn out from full close. Small adjustments should make a big difference. If the adjustment can not be gotten or out of adjustment range or screws don't make a difference the problem would appear to be in the Carb. Hard to believe the engine running rough and the vacuum gauge not reacting at idle. While driving the gauge should be moving low and high with acceleration and deceleration IMO Your postings don't seem to give enough information on what your doing or seeing.

[Don]

What inside the distributor would cause only the same cyl. To misfire???
The rotor not getting spark to the cap prong or cap contact,,,if rotor to contact is to great it would probally fire intermintally,,,what would cause gap to change??
Possibility the bushings,shaft could be a little off!maybe one lobe on shaft cam could be worn down just enough to cause misfire,,,,,any of these things would cause only one cyl to misfire,that is assuming he has checked the wiring and caps ,plugs etc. which he say he has,,,,I say rebuild the distributor COMPLETELY,,,!!

[slowforty]

You could just loosen the bolts in the manifold and slip a piece of metal under the carb to block off the heat riser.

[FlatheadTed]

I think maybe he has his HT wires mixed up

[Don]

Think he said early in post that he put a timing light on # 6 wire and it was misfiring.

[FlatheadTed]

If you face a timing light at a TDC pully mark on say # 6 it wont match if the wire is in the wrong hole ,.

[Old Henry]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

Watching the flashes from a timing light at idle, (either in line or clamp on type) can indicate which cylinder has a firing problems. Look for missing flashes using a good cylinder as reference. If all the cylinders appear the same, what was your vacuum reading at idle? Should be very close to 20 maybe slightly lower like 18 and very steady. While you have the vacuum gauge attached adjust carburetor idle mixture screws, while enging is warm,g for the highest and steadiest vacuum reading and engine running smoothest. The screws should be about 3/4 to 1 turn out from full close. Small adjustments should make a big difference. If the adjustment can not be gotten or out of adjustment range or screws don't make a difference the problem would appear to be in the Carb. Hard to believe the engine running rough and the vacuum gauge not reacting at idle. While driving the gauge should be moving low and high with acceleration and deceleration IMO Your postings don't seem to give enough information on what your doing or seeing.

In response:

Reading the timing light for each cylinder shows #6 missing the most followed by #3 some and #7 & 8 very rarely.

This video shows the vacuum gauge at full idle, i.e. throttle closed completely, at highest and smoothest RPM by adjusting idle mixture screws. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5UoexytEWQk

Vacuum gauge moves down with acceleration and up with deceleration and is steady except at full idle.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Don

What inside the distributor would cause only the same cyl. To misfire???
The rotor not getting spark to the cap prong or cap contact,,,if rotor to contact is to great it would probally fire intermintally,,,what would cause gap to change??
Possibility the bushings,shaft could be a little off!maybe one lobe on shaft cam could be worn down just enough to cause misfire,,,,,any of these things would cause only one cyl to misfire,that is assuming he has checked the wiring and caps ,plugs etc. which he say he has,,,,I say rebuild the distributor COMPLETELY,,,!!

The distributor and coil are creating reliable and steady spark as shown by HT wire from coil near head bolt when cranking and steady spark to all plugs except #6 mostly, #3 a little and #7 & 8 very rarely when running. Problem spark locations do not change with swapping spark plug wires or distributor caps. Rough running doesn't change by unplugging any plugs.

The distributor is a Ford remanufactured sent to Michael at 3rd gen who just set the dwell that was off and replaced the condenser and sent it back.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by slowforty

You could just loosen the bolts in the manifold and slip a piece of metal under the carb to block off the heat riser.

Brian has also mentioned the heat riser but I don't understand what that has to do with the engine running rough. I would not want to run my car at below 0 temperatures without the heat risers.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

I think maybe he has his HT wires mixed up

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

If you face a timing light at a TDC pully mark on say # 6 it wont match if the wire is in the wrong hole ,.

The spark plug wires are all plugged in correctly. If any were swapped I think I'd get bad backfires.

[Old Henry]

Tonight I tested for vacuum leaks around the manifold and carb as follows:

Ran the engine at full idle speed (throttle plates totally closed).
Squirted some starter fluid into the carb to make sure it would affect the RPMs.
Removed the wiper vacuum hose and squirted starter fluid in there for the same reason. (Both changed the RPMs)
Reconnected the wiper vacuum hose then sprayed the starter fluid all around the edges of the manifold, where the carburetor connects to it, and around the carburetor throttle shafts. No change in RPM by any of that. Would seem that I have no vacuum leaks causing the rough running.

Other ideas?

[Jack E/NJ]

>>>I've only got three weeks to solve this problem before I have to put Old Henry in a coma for two years while my wife and I go to serve voluntarily in the Philippines for two years.>>>Other ideas? >>


Only ~2 weeks now. Seems like time to wrap it up. Focus on preparing for the trip. Worry about the car when you get back and have more time.


Meanwhile just keep running MMO. Maybe arrange for a friend to start & fast idle till it heats up every week or so while you're gone..

[marko39]

The engine vacuum is very low and erratic, should be 18-20 and steady.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by marko39

The engine vacuum is very low and erratic, should be 18-20 and steady.

So? What causes that and is it the cause of the engine running rough at all speeds? And, how to fix it?

[Jack E/NJ]

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...1-png.4613289/

[Brian]

Your vacuum leak test with starter fluid; you've checked the base of the carb area, but I don't see where you have checked where the manifold bolts to the block. The vacuum gauge certainly shows very low vacuum, which could well be indicative of a vacuum leak. Bear in mind, this vacuum leak could be internal; there can be a vacuum leak into the valley, or that heat riser could have cracked...I have experienced this.

[Jack E/NJ]

Other than a bit of flutter, late valve timing seems closest. Maybe worn down cam gear teeth especially if fiber?

[FlatheadTed]

Broken valve spring ,Colet or guide retainer issue ,worn cam shaft ,

[Jack E/NJ]

...or sticky valves might be late too as well as cause some vacuum fluttering?

[Old Henry]

Well, it looks like we have finally concluded that the rough running is nothing to do with anything exterior like ignition, carburetion, or external vacuum leaks. Everyone now seems to be suggesting that it is a problem within the engine itself requiring partial or complete disassembly. That I don't do and won't have done in the two weeks I have left of life as I know it.

So, I've put Old Henry into his coma for the next two years, unplugged the clock so it doesn't get another two year's wasted wear, removed the batteries from the outside and inside thermometers, disconnected the voltage booster, put fuel stabilizer into the gas tank and filled it up, gave him a nice hot bath, and topped up the oil. Might even consider putting it up on jack stands to save flattening the tires.

My son lives close and will come monthly to run all vehicles while he's otherwise checking the property inside and out just like he did when we were in Hong Kong for 18 months a couple of years ago.

Anything else to make Old Henry more comfortable in his coma?

[Ggmac]

I wish you a safe and productive and rewarding trip .

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Ggmac

I wish you a safe and productive and rewarding trip .

Thanks. I believe that we will have all of that and more.

(Congratulations! Your post was the 200th of this thread that was thought would never end. Maybe now it can.)

[Mart]

I don't know what others may think, but it might be worth holding the clutch pedal down to try and avoid clutch plate getting stuck. Or ask your son to not only start it up but engage forward and reverse gears and let the clutch almost bite.

Have a productive and rewarding mission trip.

Mart.

[cas3]

Mart, while its a good thought to protect the clutch disk, I believe its not a problem with the nice dry air in Utah.

[flatford8]

Have a safe journey Craig!…….Mark

[corvette8n]

I put mine on jackstands when it’s put away for winter 4-5 months.

[Terry,OH]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Did you check for a vacuum leak on the vacuum line at the distributor and on the end at the intake manifold, where there is a special bolt connecting the vacuum line to the intake, the special bolt can break, or be loose or the banjo type fitting can be leaking on either side. The rubber tube to the vacuum wipers may be cracked, best to block the vacuum port at the point where the wiper tube connects to check. If your connecting to the wiper port on the special bolt with your vacuum gauge then the wiper rubber tube is not the problem.

Check for a leak where the distributor mounts to the timing cover. There should be a special rubber O-ring at the rear of the distributor that seals the vacuum to the distributor vacuum brake.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

Did you check for a vacuum leak on the vacuum line at the distributor and on the end at the intake manifold, where there is a special bolt connecting the vacuum line to the intake, the special bolt can break, or be loose or the banjo type fitting can be leaking on either side. The rubber tube to the vacuum wipers may be cracked, best to block the vacuum port at the point where the wiper tube connects to check. If your connecting to the wiper port on the special bolt with your vacuum gauge then the wiper rubber tube is not the problem.

Check for a leak where the distributor mounts to the timing cover. There should be a special rubber O-ring at the rear of the distributor that seals the vacuum to the distributor vacuum brake.