AvGas in the ford

[Bill Goddard]

Can you use 100 octane Avgas in a model A? Bill G

[Pete]

Yes.

[Railcarmover]

Just be careful.its a slippery slope..the next thing you know your building a car for the salt...so broke the kids are eating the putty out the windows,racing broke..

[Synchro909]

You don't need the octane avgas has but for you guys, at least it doesn't contain ethanol.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

Just be careful.its a slippery slope..the next thing you know your building a car for the salt...so broke the kids are eating the putty out the windows,racing broke..

A true racer spends everything he makes on racing, minus 10% to live on....

[Werner]

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Hello Bill,

Avgas ist perfect fuell: no ethanol, contains plumbum. Pb is a perfect grease for the valves and the top piston ring.
I drive it von time to time in all my old cars.


B.t.w.: In Germany Avgas is very expensive: 10,-/gallone.

[Dodge]

It is possible but illegal as the are no road taxes on it.

[Keith True]

I just don't know why you would need 100 octane gas for a car that was built when 67 octane was the good stuff.One company was so proud of their high octane gas they named their stations after it,Phillips 66.Some used to get it at an airport about 15 miles from me,but they got caught on the road tax thing.Now they will sell it to you if you bring a can,and tell them it's for your lawn mower.

[Werner]

Tach Keith,
it's not about the high octane number, which is unimportant. The big (technical) advantage is that Avgas contains lead.

[Railcarmover]

Originally Posted by Pete

A true racer spends everything he makes on racing, minus 10% to live on....

Their innovation drives the whole hobby..I just don't have what it takes to build it then break it.Big difference between 'if' and 'when'..a street guy fixes it if it breaks,a racer when it breaks.

[Badpuppy]

Originally Posted by Keith True

I just don't know why you would need 100 octane gas for a car that was built when 67 octane was the good stuff.One company was so proud of their high octane gas they named their stations after it,Phillips 66.Some used to get it at an airport about 15 miles from me,but they got caught on the road tax thing.Now they will sell it to you if you bring a can,and tell them it's for your lawn mower.

Legend has it that Frank Philips named the company for Route 66, the most-traveled highway in the US, although the headquarters was in Bartlesville, on Route 60. Guess he figured 66 was faster.

The refinery on the south side of the highway really stunk up the place, i remember.

[Keith True]

There is also a story about it being named Phillips 66 because it was the 66th attempt at a formulation.I had read the naming after the octane in an article by the Conoco oil company about the progress of gas refining over the years.Werner,lead was not in widespread use at the time of the A either.I won't say it was non-existent,because it was being experimented with.I have the first gas pump that dispensed leaded gas in my town.It was right after the war,and the store owner told me that his first load of leaded gas went sour before he could sell it all.The old folks didn't like change then either.Some had the idea there was metal in their gas.The only plus I see to it is that it does keep very well.

[Purdy Swoft]

One hundred octane gas was available at most filling stations up until around 1970 and shortly after . The octane was posted on the pumps . Ethyl gas or premium as we called it was usually one hundred octane or more . Regular gas was usually 94 octane . I always used ethyl gas in everything that I run including the lawn mower. Higher octane gives a bit more power . If hundred octane gas was still locally available at a reasonable price , I would still use it .

[juanvaldez]

The octane rating system has changed since the old days. The new method R + M / 2 averages research and motor octane and give a lower number. I think modern 93 is really around 100 by the old method. Modern avgas, 100 LL is really around 93 octane by modern method. As for lead, 100 LL has about four times (2 grams/gallon) the lead as the old eythl and really fouls plugs.

[rotorwrench]

A person used to be able to purchase 80/87 for lower compression engines but those days are long gone. 100LL is one of the most stable fuels there is obviously due to it's intended purpose. It is called low lead but it still has more TEL than any normal auto fuel. I've had trouble with lead fouling on 10:1 compression aircraft engines so a person should expect some on low compression engines. It will work but it's overkill on most antique engines with low compression. The price is high and it's a PITA to buy. You won't find it an the local stop & rob.

[Bob-A]

For my two Harley's I mix 110 octane leaded racing gas with 90 octane non-ethanol gas. It does make a difference, but you do have to be careful to not add to much of the racing gas.



Bob-A




Skirts are for women, not car fenders!

[Purdy Swoft]

The lead in the older high octane gas at the pump reduced timing knock . With leaded gas timing could be set more advance and have no knocks , with more power . Gulf use to sell gas they called NONOX . My spelling may not be exactly like Gulf spelled it but close .

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Badpuppy

Legend has it that Frank Philips named the company for Route 66, the most-traveled highway in the US, although the headquarters was in Bartlesville, on Route 60. Guess he figured 66 was faster.
.

That's a new one on me! I have read many accounts stating that Philips 66 was so named because they were so proud of selling gas with 66 octane.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

A person used to be able to purchase 80/87 for lower compression engines but those days are long gone. 100LL is one of the most stable fuels there is obviously due to it's intended purpose. It is called low lead but it still has more TEL than any normal auto fuel. I've had trouble with lead fouling on 10:1 compression aircraft engines so a person should expect some on low compression engines. It will work but it's overkill on most antique engines with low compression. The price is high and it's a PITA to buy. You won't find it an the local stop & rob.

Rotorwrench, Now you've got me curious. What little I know about aircraft engines has led me to believe that 10 to 1 was way too much compression for an engine running under constant heavy load (wide open or nearly wide open), especially air cooled and/or super/turbocharged. Are you referring to aero-race engines like in the Reno Air Races? Thanks!

[Floats]

40 Deluxe,
Aero engines do not run ‘under constant heavy load’. Most aero engines have a maximum speed of about 2700 rpm and climb rpm @2500 and around 2400 to 2450 at cruise.
Aircraft engine speed is limited to propeller speed which becomes inefficient at higher speeds. At higher engine speeds, a reduction gearbox is required to maintain a prop speed of around 2000 rpm, depending on the propellor design.
Dakota engines and props turn at around 1800rpm in the cruise.
Your observation of ‘constant heavy load’ is mostly prop noise related and not engine loads.
Regards
Chris

[rotorwrench]

I started out working on the Hughes 269 series helicopters and the 269C has the HIO-360-D1A engine. They wanted max horse power for normally aspirated operation and they wanted a high RPM rating. This is about the only 10:1 ratio small engine that I'm familiar with. The Enstrom helicopters were set up for higher HP with a Lycoming 360 type but they are turbocharged to get the power so they have a lower compression ratio. The Hughes/Schweizer 269C runs at 3100 rpm in the middle of the green arc but can be run up to the red line of 3200 rpm for short periods so it had to be built well to take that but it only has a 1,500-hour TBO and it won't last much more than that without some problem cropping up. For an aircraft engine, it's a hot rod but it takes a beating when you have two big heavy cowboys in there and a full tank load of avgas. These engines are a 4-cylinder opposed type so you know by the displacement of 360 CID that they have some big pistons in there.

High compression aircraft engines are a rarity. Most are 8.7:1 or less. Props run at around 2,700 to 2,900 rpm so they don't really need higher capability than that. The old Lycoming 435, 480, and a few other engines would run up to 3400 rpm but they had to have prop reduction gearing to go that fast. Props don't need to go supersonic at the tips. The blades can't take that.

Just to ADD: Helicopters run at a very narrow RPM range to keep the main rotor rpm within design limitations. The small ones with belt drive have pulley combinations to get the engine to optimum rpm for power (torque) while the main rotor is at optimum rpm for best lift. Power setting vary depending weight in the aircraft and whether it is in climb mode or descend mode. In that respect, they are about the same as an airplane, Full power would be when you have a full load and are climbing out at a high rate. As soon as it levels off, it uses less power. In a decent, the power drops of to little or nothing due to good old gravity. In a hover just above ground level, they have to deal with ground effect so they use a lot more power in a hover than they do at a level cruise speed or hover up out of ground effect. I don't like to hover way up there. I like to keep moving so I know it can go into autorotation normally if something happens.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

That's a new one on me! I have read many accounts stating that Philips 66 was so named because they were so proud of selling gas with 66 octane.

Badpuppy, Keith, and 40 Deluxe I've heard all the same stories about how Phillips 66 got it's name, plus another one.

As the story goes, they were out testing Frank Phillip's new gasoline in (what old car I don't recall it was 1927) and someone commented as they were speeding down the road 'Feels like we're doing 66 (MPH)'.

Who knows just what happened, but the water cooler talk among the older guys back then was probably all they wanted for exposure, marketing, etc.

One thing about that 100 Octane + AvGas that WOULD be good for a Model A is, you could store your car with a tank full of it for a long time and it wouldn't break down or separate like today's junk gasolines do.