Model A horns

[wrndln]

I have wondered about this for some time. It seems like Sparton horns typically sell for much more than Stewart Warner, Ames or the other type horns. It seems that the average selling price on Ebay for Sparton horns is in the $265 range. The other brands of horns typically sell for $150 to $165. Are Sparton horns really that much better than the other brands Ford used - i.e a sound better? I have never had a Sparton horn, so I don't know much about them. Just curious.

[TomW]

My EA Labs horn seems to have a nice rich tone - just like other originals I've heard. Some of the repros sound a bit tinny to me.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I think the SPARTON tag adds to the looks and value some, but I can't say that one horn is that much better or better sounding than the other.

My 29 Tudor had one of those 6 volt chrome "Made in Japan" horns when I bought the car. It actually had an excellent sound, and I was able to sell it on ebay and get enough for it to buy a real Model A horn.

[Steve Ciccalone]

The fine point guys who really know would rather eat dirt than use a Sparton on a show car. No matter how good the tag is, it never seems to satisfy the judges. They killed the original Sparton horn tag on my unrestored coupe at French Lick that had been on that car since 5/30. Same with Ames horns on the very early cars. There is a tag on the bell that can't be restored and will lose points. I plan to use early EAs on my 11/27 and 12/27 cars. IMO don't waste your money. A nice working Stewart Warner is just as good.

[Scott NY]

Steve is right go with any horn other than a sparton if you are going into fine point judging. The judges did not like the tag on my original A, it is an original horn with the original tag just like Steve's.

[1931 flamingo]

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I was at A&L last week and couldn't believe the # of parts and manufacturing steps that go into making a horn. There must have been 500+ horns in various steps of manufacture. I was like a kid in a candy store. Great people.
Paul in CT

[Fred]

On my 8/22/28 I have a E.A. with no problems..On my 3/18/29 I have a G.I.M. It, I think sounds just a little better.. But @ a show this fall (judging) called it a re-pro..They are kind of hard to find...

[mot]

i like the4 stewart warner sound my self
the Ames can get you in trouble as the stamp is not deep,and if the judging is indoors they wont see it
we lost points on an original Ames that was stamped twice on the horn and once on the bracket,they said it was a repro,and it only had one coat of thin black paint on it,indoors they couldnt see the trademark
Gims also may loose points because the stamp can be anywhere on the motor section,and if they dont see it at the six o clock positon they give up and call it a repro

[Ray in La Mesa]

Not a show car guy but I love the sound of the Stewar Warner best, you just have to remember that the armature nut holding the vibrator on is LEFT HAND threads.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by mot

i like the4 stewart warner sound my self
the Ames can get you in trouble as the stamp is not deep,and if the judging is indoors they wont see it
we lost points on an original Ames that was stamped twice on the horn and once on the bracket,they said it was a repro,and it only had one coat of thin black paint on it,indoors they couldnt see the trademark
Gims also may loose points because the stamp can be anywhere on the motor section,and if they dont see it at the six o clock positon they give up and call it a repro

You beat me to the punch mot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder who that was!

Pluck

[Keith True]

I think a lot of horns bring big money just because they say Sparton.A lot of people think that Sparton was THE horn for an A.I bought two horns cheap because they were not Spartons.The seller did try to be nice,he said,you do realize that these are not A horns right?I said no,what's different? He said they are not Spartons and that is all that were used on the A.I told him others were used,but he said,that's OK,if they are not Sparton people offer me half.

[Wuudie]

Dumb question
If Sparton's were on the original A's, how come Judges take off points for it?

Wouldn't that drive the price for Sparton's down?

[Great Lakes Greg]

Sparton horns are the greatest ever! Regards from a biased member of the MARC Sparton Horn Chapter Jackson, MI

[peters180a/170b]

I used Stewart on my 180a for fine point judging. And yet i have a mint Sparton horn w/ correct tag but that will go on my driver. I'll put a repro tag with the correct date for my driver which is 5 month earlier. :>)

[John Butts in CT]

I'm partial to the sound(s) of the EA Labs horn that's been on my Tudor since new.

[wcolo]

I have restored horns for resale for many years and I have restored all of the five manufacturers of horns. Spartons because of their hype and label seem to be the best seller, but personally I much prefer the Stewart/Warner(S/W) for several reasons and they are as follows, the S/W's I purchase or receive for restoration always seem to have really decent looking motors(a few exceptions though) due to the one piece cap that fits tight and eliminates a lot of environmental damage to the motor, the motor retaining band is much wider and supports the motor quite well, the oiler caps on the later S/W's are covered and eliminates a lot of dirt getting into the armature bearings, and lastly, I have done many horns and the Stewart/Warner seems to have a more consistent and decent ahooga sound. I run a S/W on my 1930 Roadster and it consistently works even when the engine is not running.

It is hard to believe the judges are being so picky on labels. Originals weathered Sparton Labels are ALL black and only the date is usually readable, the reproductions labels made now are decent and one can get a stamped label from A&L back east. If the judges are so smart, why don't they offer some solution to the Sparton Label issue? Additionally, many AMES,S/W and GMI have very faint stampings on the horns from the factory, and this is how they were sold as new. If a stamping is faint on a rust free horn, that is how it was made. For judges to be judging manufacture stamping depth is just plain wrong, incorrect, and basically dumb. They should restore a 100 horns like I have done and they would see that there are issues made from the factory that cannot be addressed or controlled.

If I were to rate horns on performance, from best to worst, I would rate S/W, then Sparton, followed by AMES and GMI together, and EA at a distant last. I am not an EA fan. I have done them for restoration, but have never gotten the sound out them as I do with S/W's and Spartons and generally their condition seems poor since most are found back east. All of my comments are based upon what I have observed from the many restorations I have done. Yes, I am a Stewart/Warner fan.

[d.j. moordigian]

wcolo,

" If I were to rate horns on performance, from best to worst, I would rate S/W, then Sparton, followed by AMES and GMI together, and EA at a distant last. I am not an EA fan. I have done them for restoration, but have never gotten the sound out them as I do with S/W's and Spartons and generally their condition seems poor since most are found back east. All of my comments are based upon what I have observed from the many restorations I have done. Yes, I am a Stewart/Warner fan. "

Are you saying that the horns are regional? My car was built in San Fransisco in
mid 1928. Which horns were typical for a SFA mid 28, any idea? Also, I'm look for
an EA motor base/with a motor...that has a nice stamp.

Thanks, Dudley

[Rowdy]

I have 4 horns on the bench now. Two Spartons and 2 SW's. Planning to sell the Spartons and use keep the SW's for my Delivery snd for Dad's special coupe. Now that the temps are getting warmer all will be going over to a local shop so I can beadblast them and bring them home to paint and assemble. Likely will be about another month before all are ready.My biggest delima is what to do with the dates on the repop tags. I may leave them off and send them with the horns so the buyer can stamp his own dates on them. The early EA horn I had seemed to have the best sound. Rod

[wcolo]

I buy all over the country if the horn is decent and I can see a picture of the horn and especially the motor. I have discovered that most EA are back east, Spartons and Stewart/Warners all over, and AMES and GMI are basically west. I am not sure the reason, but it must have to do with the assembly plants and were they were located plus the location of the manufacturing location of the horns. I do know the EA horn has a Brooklyn, New York address, and back east is where most of them are located, not my favorite horn.

[wcolo]

A & L Parts Specialities(860-693-0112) have prestamped Sparton labels, run a little more than the standard ones available, but not much. Be very careful with those S/W horns, the armature shaft has a reverse thread on the part of the shaft that holds the ratchet gear, if you twist like you are used to twisting, you will twist the nut off along with the thread, a bear to make work again, and the complete armature units are not available as replacements. I have seen more than one ruined armature on S/W's. I do restore owner horns.

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

wcolo,

" If I were to rate horns on performance, from best to worst, I would rate S/W, then Sparton, followed by AMES and GMI together, and EA at a distant last. I am not an EA fan. I have done them for restoration, but have never gotten the sound out them as I do with S/W's and Spartons and generally their condition seems poor since most are found back east. All of my comments are based upon what I have observed from the many restorations I have done. Yes, I am a Stewart/Warner fan. "

Are you saying that the horns are regional? My car was built in San Fransisco in
mid 1928. Which horns were typical for a SFA mid 28, any idea? Also, I'm look for
an EA motor base/with a motor...that has a nice stamp.

Thanks, Dudley

Dudley, I have observed where my horns were shipped from. I do not think there were any rules other than horn manufacturing location versus where the assembly plants were located. Although, I have found very few EA's out west, where I live, plus most I have picked up are so-so condition. I do have one early domed EA horn I may be selling, I have restored the horn(I do this professionally) and it came out fairly decent. The EA stamping on the lip ranged from not there to a light stamped EA, about 3/16" high, so I would not worry much about that unless you have judges that do NOT know horns.

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

I have 4 horns on the bench now. Two Spartons and 2 SW's. Planning to sell the Spartons and use keep the SW's for my Delivery snd for Dad's special coupe. Now that the temps are getting warmer all will be going over to a local shop so I can beadblast them and bring them home to paint and assemble. Likely will be about another month before all are ready.My biggest delima is what to do with the dates on the repop tags. I may leave them off and send them with the horns so the buyer can stamp his own dates on them. The early EA horn I had seemed to have the best sound. Rod

Be careful with those S/W's, the armature shaft has a reverse nut that holds on the rotary rachet gear that rotates against the vibrator pile on the vibrator disk. If you torque it the wrong way, you twist off the nut and screw, then you have major problems, hard to fix right, and the armatures are not available reproduction. Call A&L Parts Specialities, 860-693-0112 to purchase pre-stamped Sparton labels.

[Rowdy]

I bought my parts from A&L, but since I did not want to limit the market of the horns by putting a date on them , I opted to leave them blank so whoever purchases them can have a fitting date of their own put on. I will be careful as I had to have one armerature rewound. Rod

[glenn in camino]

Ok, judges chime in and tell us what's wrong with the repo Sparton tags if they're stamped with the correct date?

[d.j. moordigian]

Glenn,

I have a good idea on the Sparton tags(I think), BUT I want to know if the
horns, in some way, are regional. That would be damned interesting !!! Judges?

Dudley

[Pa Joe]

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I see on ebay there is a Hutchens horn. I never heard of it and was wondering if anyone else knows anything about them.

[MikeK]

Taking the Sparton tag hype to the extreme, I've observed several horns of other manufacture that had the lousy Sparton tags attached by amateur messtorers.

[henry494]

Since there was considerable discussion about the Sparton tags, I'm posting a photo of a new old stock Sparton tag. It comes from a new old stock Sparton horn in like new condition. I'm sorry I don't have a repro tag for a side by side comparison. But, the repro tag has much redder writing on it and has much more shine overall with its brand new plating. The repro is a fine tag to use, but yes, the judges downgrade for them as repro.
I simply got lucky on this one, as my Coupe is a March 1930, and my friend's Tudor is January 1930, so he could not use this tag. When he compared the original tag to a repro, he decided to use a Stewart Warner and be done with the tag issue once and for all. I got the leftover nos horn. I plan on using the original tag for show. Sweet!

Dave Lopes

[msmaron]

this is the original tag from our horn..

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by Pa Joe

I see on ebay there is a Hutchens horn. I never heard of it and was wondering if anyone else knows anything about them.

Hutchins Horns were made in the 1960's through the early 1970's and made or marketed out of St. Charles, Mo.(I think near St. Louis). They cost around $12 to $14 as new and were sold by many outfits such as Sears, Wards, Warshawskis, JC Whitney. Definitely an aftermarket Ahooga horn, heavy and work fairly well, but look horrible on a Model A. If a Model A owner has one on his car, he is labeled as a D.....b S......t. Not my favorite horn, I have picked up two Model A's with them installed, they were removed Warp Speed and placed for auction on the EBay place.

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by msmaron

this is the original tag from our horn..

I have never run across one that good on the un-restored Spartons I have restored. I have restored probably 50 Spartons in the past few years, ALL had darkened labels with usually the date the only readible item. You were quite lucky to find a tag that nice on a Sparton Horn, was it from a NOS horn?

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by henry494

Since there was considerable discussion about the Sparton tags, I'm posting a photo of a new old stock Sparton tag. It comes from a new old stock Sparton horn in like new condition. I'm sorry I don't have a repro tag for a side by side comparison. But, the repro tag has much redder writing on it and has much more shine overall with its brand new plating. The repro is a fine tag to use, but yes, the judges downgrade for them as repro.
I simply got lucky on this one, as my Coupe is a March 1930, and my friend's Tudor is January 1930, so he could not use this tag. When he compared the original tag to a repro, he decided to use a Stewart Warner and be done with the tag issue once and for all. I got the leftover nos horn. I plan on using the original tag for show. Sweet!

Dave Lopes

Dave, I have restored over 100 horns, most Spatons and Stewart/Warners. I have never run across a decent label on any of the un-restored Spartons I have either purchased or rebuilt for a customer. With this dilemma, a judge that deducts for a reproduction label is plain stupid or maybe senile. I know of no NOS labels available on earth, yours is the only one I have seen, does this mean this picky judge has access to NOS original labels, how does he know the difference, unless he restores horns and had NOS labels? Do they also deduct for a black, un-readible original label or are they acceptable?? With this judging mess, that leaves Stewart/Warners for cars to be judged and of course they must have deep factory stampings, I seen many examples of original not rusted very light factory stampings on S/W's and always AMES, will they deduct for this also?
Bennett

[wcolo]

Labels Again:
I just compared my 1929 reproduction label with original label above, marked 1929, the 1928 and 1929 labels have the "other patent pending" in the far right side in small black print. I cannot tell the difference between my reproduction I bought from Brattons and the original. This also holds true also with the 1930 original label shown above, it is identical in all respects to my Brattons reproduction, color, print and everything else. The 1930-1931 labels have the patents listed in small black print on the far right(four patents).

I do know A&L Parts Specialities will pre-stamp you labels. I plan on getting some of them in the future. I am positive you could slightly weather an A&L stamped Sparton label and no judge alive would know the difference. I have a copy of the judging standards, and I did not run across this picky issue in the standards, but mine are 1998 or so dated. Are judges getting this picky?? If they are, I recommend they retire or buy a Yugo to judge.
Bennett

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by wcolo

Labels Again:
I do know A&L Parts Specialities will pre-stamp you labels. I plan on getting some of them in the future. I am positive you could slightly weather an A&L stamped Sparton label and no judge alive would know the difference. I have a copy of the judging standards, and I did not run across this picky issue in the standards, but mine are 1998 or so dated. Are judges getting this picky?? If they are, I recommend they retire or buy a Yugo to judge.
Bennett

If you read the preface you will find anything distinguishable from original should receive a deduction. This has always been the case. The "Standards" does NOT describe the nuances of various reproduction parts.

I find it interesting how many folks believe they should receive the same score for an nice looking "off the shelf" part as the guy next to him with the real deal in perfect condition, whether it be a NOS part or a painstakingly restored part. If the judge can't tell the difference due to inexperience OR the car owner has successfully doctored the new part to match the the real deal then the reproduction piece will indeed receive the same score. In my opinion that is the way it should be. Oftenthe car ownerdoesn't know the difference or simply can't see it but that doesn't entitle him to a free ride.

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Taking the Sparton tag hype to the extreme, I've observed several horns of other manufacture that had the lousy Sparton tags attached by amateur messtorers.

Unfortunately these show up on the EBay place all to often, and of course, the Hutchins with the Sparton Tag is immediately an original Sparton, and the idiots selling will not listen to reason when you explain what has happened, so your report them to the EBay place as a fradulent listing, and of course the EBay place, staffed by 25 something air-heads that only know how to text and Facebook, but no nothing about antique vehicles, history or anything else interesting, subsequently nothing happens. I have seen this more than once.
Bennett Y.

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

If you read the preface you will find anything distinguishable from original should receive a deduction. This has always been the case. The "Standards" does NOT describe the nuances of various reproduction parts.

I find it interesting how many folks believe they should receive the same score for an nice looking "off the shelf" part as the guy next to him with the real deal in perfect condition, whether it be a NOS part or a painstakingly restored part. If the judge can't tell the difference due to inexperience OR the car owner has successfully doctored the new part to match the the real deal then the reproduction piece will indeed receive the same score. In my opinion that is the way it should be. Oftenthe car ownerdoesn't know the difference or simply can't see it but that doesn't entitle him to a free ride.

If you have any of those NOS labels, I would certainly be interested. I did not know that labels were now part of the judging, but in Western Colorado, we drive our Model A's, since there are no clubs over here, only in Eastern Colorado. Is the Sparton label issue covered in the latest upgrades of the Judging Standards? If so, sound like I need that update, but then again if I cannot get NOS labels, what then??
Bennett Y.

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by wcolo

If you have any of those NOS labels, I would certainly be interested. I did not know that labels were now part of the judging, but in Western Colorado, we drive our Model A's, since there are no clubs over here, only in Eastern Colorado. Is the Sparton label issue covered in the latest upgrades of the Judging Standards? If so, sound like I need that update, but then again if I cannot get NOS labels, what then??
Bennett Y.

Folks, if this Sparton Label issue is going on with judges, I recommend using Stewart/Warner Horns with excellent deep stamped markings and avoid the Sparton label issues, frankly I have done dozens of Spartons and NEVER have run across a decent looking un-restored label. I would surely love to have a bunch.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by wcolo

If you have any of those NOS labels, I would certainly be interested. I did not know that labels were now part of the judging, but in Western Colorado, we drive our Model A's, since there are no clubs over here, only in Eastern Colorado. Is the Sparton label issue covered in the latest upgrades of the Judging Standards? If so, sound like I need that update, but then again if I cannot get NOS labels, what then??
Bennett Y.

The revision should include a photo for reference. In reality 99.999% of folks don't care as long as the horn looks nice and functions properly. IF you encounter someone that is truly concerned you have two simple and logical solutions:

1. DO NOT offer to help them build the first ever 500 point car!

2. Advise them to show with a horn that requires no tag (Stewart Warner, etc.) so all commonly available original parts can be used. And PLEASE, use properly restored original nuts and bolts, and remember to put a THIN coat of black enamel on the diaphragm!

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

The revision should include a photo for reference. In reality 99.999% of folks don't care as long as the horn looks nice and functions properly. IF you encounter someone that is truly concerned you have two simple and logical solutions:

1. DO NOT offer to help them build the first ever 500 point car!

2. Advise them to show with a horn that requires no tag (Stewart Warner, etc.) so all commonly available original parts can be used. And PLEASE, use properly restored original nuts and bolts, and remember to put a THIN coat of black enamel on the diaphragm!

Sir, I am aware of the correct nuts and bolts and the thin coat of black enamal, and that is how I try to restore them, pitted horns are a problem, takes more than one coat and they never make show horns, but a show horn S/W should be essentially rust free, and I have run across some very nice rust and dent free S/W's, especially here in the West. I will always recommend S/W's in the future if the car is to be shown. I honestly did not realize that judging was getting so specific as to question the Sparton labels, I can understand if they are reproductions that are not correctly stamped, but there are some beautiful Sparton label reproductions available right now that can be properly stamped. I run a S/W on my 1930 Roadster, mainly because it functions so well.
Sincerely,
Bennett Y.

[wcolo]

Rowdy,
I would get the stamped Reproduction labels from A&L install on the Sparton caps, and provide the original labels with the horns when you sell. I have seen the recent reproduction labels from Bratton's and they are quite nice, I sure the A&L ones are also, the older reproduction labels I have run across simply are not as nice as the most recent stuff. It sounds from the above discussions that taking Spartons to a Model A Judging show with anal type A judges will cost you points, since only god can restore those original labels to their new original glory.
Bennett

[dr.j]

FM ?? I just looked at mine and the only writing I can identify are the initials FM ???
Years ago when DMS switching appeared on the market replacing SXS we called it FM (f#^^ing Magic),

[raprice]

I have a repro Sparton horn on my "A" and love the sound. I really couldn't care less about judging. In fact, I don't want a judge near my car. Besides, the Sparton looks good to me. That's my 2 cents.
Rog

[wcolo]

Rog,
You cap should have Model FM followed by the manufacturer's address heavily embossed on the top of the one piece cap; the early version had a one piece domed cap with the adjustment screw and hold down screw very close. The later version, mid 28 through 29 had a cap also with Model FM followed by the address, embossed heavily, cap similar in construction to the Stewart/Warner and same screw configuration. Out of 5 FM Model A Horns I have (three 28's and two 29's), I can find only one horn with EA stamped on the bell base, no FM stampings other than the one found on the one piece cap. If you have a Model A FM horn without the address on the top of the cap, you have the wrong cap, at least from what I have researched. Replacement caps are available from A&L back east.

[wcolo]

Originally Posted by raprice

I have a repro Sparton horn on my "A" and love the sound. I really couldn't care less about judging. In fact, I don't want a judge near my car. Besides, the Sparton looks good to me. That's my 2 cents.
Rog

Rog,
If it is the later repro horns as sold by Bratton's, they are a decent horns(although they are a bastard to work on the motors), if it is a 60's Jubilee or Hutchins I recommend you buy an original horns, unless you enjoy the harassment of Model A purists. When I see a 60's repro Hutchins(with the classy chrome bell dudes) on a Model A Ford, out comes my business cards showing I restore the originals. Most folks in my county do not know the difference between a Hutchins Aftermarket and a submarine klaxton.

Bennett