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03-15-2024, 02:41 AM | #1 |
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Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Hey everyone, so I've been reading all sorts of threads on how to identify V-8 engines, and I'm still coming up with a blank on the one in my 1940 Ford. After spending the better part of a half-hour hunting for any identification, I'm coming up empty.
Here's what I know: - There are 24 studs on each head - Water pumps are in the block - Petcocks are a 45 degree angle - There is NO 59 on the bell housing - There are no stampings anywhere on the block that I could find - The passenger side head has: A FORD 56 - The Driver's side head only has an A - The rear of the block front plate has 22 on the mount arm on the driver's side, and 78-8505 with an 8- on top of that on the passenger side. Photos: Passenger side head with A, FORD, and 56: Closer on the FORD and 56: The driver's side head with only an A: 45 Degree drain plug (I think that's it correct?): Driver's side block front plate mount arm with a 22: Passenger side block front plate mount arm with 78-8505 and 8- (all hard to see in this photo): No 59 that I can see, even looking up behind the firewall: Transmission and bell housing from inside the vehicle: No date casting on the rear passenger top corner: The distributor is mounted on the front: Two shots of the distributor from the sides: Driver's side front: Passenger's side front: Looking at the bottom:
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1940 Ford DeLuxe Fordor Sedan 1944 GPW Jeep |
03-15-2024, 07:00 AM | #2 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Looks like motor in my ‘41 which I know is not original, just a run of the mill 221 made from 1938-1942. I have 2 bare blocks and 1 extra complete motor with little or no markings on them.
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03-15-2024, 08:14 AM | #3 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Warbird,
From what I can tell it appears to be a '38 - 40 block. Heads and water pumps can and most likely were changed in the past and as such, I tend not to use them as identifiers. Your pumps appear to be proper '40 bodies. However, I can't quite tell if the pulleys are 1940. Regardless, and to reiterate, these can't be used to ID a block. In 1941 the design of the block changed a bit. I can't quite tell from your photos, but it appears as if the surface is flat on the block directly below the valve chamber cover (intake manifold for you non-flathead guys). In 1941 that area appeared to be "raised", a certain indication of post 1940. Where the exhaust manifolds bolt to the block: The block casting adjacent should "stick out" about 3/16". If it is flush in that area, the block is post 1940. Your block appears to pass the so called "pencil test". That indicates '38 - '41. By the way, that "56" on one cylinder head is nothing but a casting number. It identified the casting core. I have attached a few photos that should help you. One clearly depicts the flat surface area below the valve chamber cover. One photo indicates the "pencil test". One photo, perhaps two, should help you visualize the raised area at the block adjacent to the exhaust manifold(s).
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"I can explain it for you. However, I can't understand it for you". Last edited by Kube; 03-15-2024 at 08:26 AM. |
03-15-2024, 08:26 AM | #4 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
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Archives of historical but relevant older articles: ------------- Hover mouse over the links below and click! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--------------- Rumble Seat's Notes Techno-Source for the 1932 thru 1953 Flathead Ford |
03-15-2024, 10:00 PM | #5 | ||
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Quote:
Quote:
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03-15-2024, 10:08 PM | #6 | |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
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Hey Mike! (this is Britt, who's been emailing you), Thanks for the information. I tried the pencil test, but the vehicle is on an inclined driveway, so it won't stay. If it was level, it would indeed stay there: I did look for the 81A casting on the sides of the heads, but I couldn't see it there. Eventually, I'm going to remove the fenders and radiator so I can get in there and clean everything up, repaint the engine, and check it out for more markings. As far as the raised/flat area, here's a few more photos of the engine:
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03-16-2024, 10:56 AM | #7 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Shouldn’t a correct 40 block have the humps in the block where the core plugs are ? I’m not seeing them on your block.
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03-16-2024, 11:34 AM | #8 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
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03-16-2024, 11:50 AM | #9 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Yes, you are correct. Good call.
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03-16-2024, 12:50 PM | #10 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
So what would that make this engine? From what I was told when I originally bought it, the engine was never replaced. But you never really know.
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03-16-2024, 01:58 PM | #11 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
41-42
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03-16-2024, 03:38 PM | #12 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Not '41 or '42 as they had the so called "raised deck" below the valve chamber cover.
My money is on this being a '40 block. Perhaps better photos from the owner in the oil pan rail area?
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03-16-2024, 04:28 PM | #13 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Post #6 shows a pretty good shot of the side of the block. I can see the gasket protruding where the bumps should be but I’m not seeing the bumps. I would like to see the intake surface. If it doesn’t have the raised portion it would definitely be a first for me.
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03-16-2024, 04:53 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Quote:
The "raised deck" blocks began in August 1940. This one in question, at least with my poor eyes, appears to be a flat deck.
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03-16-2024, 09:40 PM | #15 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Where about are you talking? I can get some photos tomorrow when it's light out. I'm used to WW2 Jeep engines, so these V8s are a bit new for me.
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03-16-2024, 10:02 PM | #16 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Take some pictures around the intake manifold where it meets the block . I suspect that the block is raised just a bit under the intake gasket.
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03-17-2024, 12:45 AM | #17 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
The "raised deck" is a semantics issue. The deck is at the same height as any other flathead deck, it's only the rough casting that was adjusted a bit thinner at the area surrounding the deck. There have been heated arguments in years past as to the blocks this feature applied to and which it did not apply to. Some say it was Mercury only, some say not. The rule of thumb when talking about Ford is it's usually safe to say that when it comes to Ford, never say never and never say always.
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03-17-2024, 05:54 AM | #18 | |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Quote:
The "raised intake or depressed block" didn't show up until 1941. Attached are pages form here, https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/985i6...ah6sxw1jq&dl=0
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Archives of historical but relevant older articles: ------------- Hover mouse over the links below and click! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--------------- Rumble Seat's Notes Techno-Source for the 1932 thru 1953 Flathead Ford |
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03-17-2024, 04:40 PM | #19 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Look along the sides of the block just above the oil pan. A correct 40 block should have two humps on each side. They should be right where the pan gasket protrudes out some. I circled it in one of the pictures. The other picture shows what is referred to a raised block. 41-42 blocks have that. Look around the intake where it meets the block and check for a ledge .
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03-18-2024, 02:53 AM | #20 | |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Quote:
I didn't see your post till this evening, so I'll check again tomorrow for the bump, but I also have some photos of the oil pan area. Oil Pan area:
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1940 Ford DeLuxe Fordor Sedan 1944 GPW Jeep Last edited by WarbirdPhotog; 03-18-2024 at 02:55 AM. Reason: ReWording |
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03-18-2024, 07:56 AM | #21 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
I zoomed in on one of the pictures and it looks to have a raised ledge underneath the intake. Also towards the rear it looks as thought there’s a little gap between the gasket and block hinting the gasket is sitting on a raised part.
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03-18-2024, 09:31 AM | #22 | |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
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03-18-2024, 09:57 AM | #23 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Ken, I think you may be correct. That would make the block post 1940 for certain. Good eyes!
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03-18-2024, 08:43 PM | #24 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Well darn! Was really hoping this was the original 1940 engine. Not that that's terrible as it's still 1940s, but just another example that an advertised 'barn find original' might not be as original as thought.
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03-18-2024, 10:11 PM | #25 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Warbird, don’t fret about the engine not being original to the car, very few are. You may rejoice, however, at your transmission being original. The serial number of your transmission is *18-5443670*, which will be the registration number of your title, and will also be visible on the top surface of the frame near the steering box. Get happy! That number on the frame will likely be covered with black grease, which will preserve it from deterioration. Be careful in cleaning it to read it, use a soft brush and dawn dish soap, never use a wire brush.
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03-19-2024, 01:55 AM | #26 | |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
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03-20-2024, 09:49 PM | #27 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
Your engine block sounds like a 41A unit to me. Post war 221 replacement blocks with most but not all external features of the 59 blocks. No core plug in the oil pan rail, no raised intake, flush exhaust ports, passes the pencil test.
For more information read through the thread we did on engine identification: https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthrea...4280&showall=1 Also available as part of the large collection of information glennpm has collected: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/985i6...ah6sxw1jq&dl=0 |
03-21-2024, 07:45 PM | #28 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
This may help to see the raised block line for the intake.
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03-21-2024, 10:55 PM | #29 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
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The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 |
03-22-2024, 01:16 AM | #30 | |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
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I'm going to eventually take off the fenders, and some of the engine items, so I can paint it. That should give me better access to check that out. I want to temporarily remove the original heater to do this, as that thing blocks a lot of the angles to get photos. I know my engine doesn't have that nub raised dot on the shoulder flat area in your photo. This photo below (from the other side of the engine from your photo) does seem to look like yours with the raised section:
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1940 Ford DeLuxe Fordor Sedan 1944 GPW Jeep Last edited by WarbirdPhotog; 03-22-2024 at 01:18 AM. Reason: Added image |
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03-22-2024, 08:13 PM | #31 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
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03-23-2024, 10:32 AM | #32 |
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Re: Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)
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