Transmission Countershaft and Bearings Question

[19Fordy]

Instead of using the long bearing B-7121 at the rear of the 1932-50 Ford
#7111 countershaft, would it be ok to cut and shorten the split spacer tube and install 2 short bearings (B-7118) instead of the one long bearing? I am thinking that increasing the actual amount of bearing surface for the shaft would be beneficial.

It's just an idea?

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Instead of using the long bearing B-7121 at the rear of the 1932-50 Ford
#7111 countershaft, would it be ok to cut and shorten the split spacer tube and install 2 short bearings (B-7118) instead of the long bearing?

It's just an idea?

[19Fordy]

Thank you, Pete.

[Tim Ayers]

Interesting idea. I don't see why not, but would like to hear other reasons we may be overlooking. When I did mine, I shortened the spacer in order to use two long bearings for the same reason you mentioned in your post.

[40cpe]

Is the ID of the cluster gear machined to the bearing OD all the way through, or just in the area the bearing is supposed to run on?

[J Franklin]

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Is there a reason behind this idea? I just see more parts to fail.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Interesting idea. I don't see why not, but would like to hear other reasons we may be overlooking. When I did mine, I shortened the spacer in order to use two long bearings for the same reason you mentioned in your post.

I just measured the dia. of the countershaft. It's .748in. dia. along its entire length from end to end.
The reason for this this idea is twofold:

1. to increase and utilize the bearing support surface.

2. CW MOSS reports that the repro. bearings are of low quality and they won't sell them. Therefore, I was thinking using 2 good condition used Ford bearings would be a safe bet.

[Will Kimble]

Don’t think the cluster is machined to accommodate that

[rotorwrench]

The rear end of the gear may have had more load on it than the front. Ford had some reason but I'm no engineer so I can only guess.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by Will Kimble

Don’t think the cluster is machined to accommodate that

Mr. Kimble is correct. I just measured the internal bore of the cluster gears 68-7113 and 022-7113-A and both are machined internally at both ends to accomodate the Ford specified roller bearings in their correct OEM positions on the shaft.
My idea won't work. THANK YOU Mr. Kimble.

[cas3]

The guy's on my jeep forums take the cage apart, get rid of it, and then fill it with rollers all the way around like the newer version of counter shafts. You then need the hardened washers between the end of the tube and the needles. Same size shaft so that stuff would be available thru jeep places, and probably Mac VP also as the Fords did this in 52 or so.

I will add, I recently had my freshly rebuilt transfer case fail after only 4K miles when the chinese caged roller bearings on the intermediate shaft fell apart and then the cage and needles flopped around destroying everything. Bummer! I was so happy with the rebuild, no leaks, gave no indication of problems until it locked up 5 miles from home.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

I just measured the dia. of the countershaft. It's .748in. dia. along its entire length from end to end.
The reason for this this idea is twofold:

1. to increase and utilize the bearing support surface.

2. CW MOSS reports that the repro. bearings are of low quality and they won't sell them. Therefore, I was thinking using 2 good condition used Ford bearings would be a safe bet.

Jim:

Call Mac VP. When were there for his class, he was selling NOS GM rollers that are the same as Ford, except one of the set was longer that the Ford units I believe. He told us how to make it work and I believe it's what he uses in his builds.

This may be a good option since they are USA-made quality bearings, so no need to worry about good enough used.

Just a thought.

Tim

[pistonbroke]

ID on the cluster is one thing , but is it a polished surface for a bearing to ride on? I would like to hear from Mac Van Pelt on this topic. It sounds like a good idea on paper but you would think hotrodders would have done this back in the day. Tim

[19Fordy]

Thank you all for responding to my question. Thank you, Tim for the bearing "tip" from Mr. Van Pelt. I printed this thread out. Jim

[cadillac512]

Jim, when I rebuilt my '41 trans I put Koyo B1212 bearings in the cluster gear. They are a needle roller in a drawn cup and pressed into the cluster. Full complement of rollers and specs for load looked good. 26,000 miles on it and all is well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/39463821364...3ABFBMlPveuL9j

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by pistonbroke

ID on the cluster is one thing , but is it a polished surface for a bearing to ride on? I would like to hear from Mac Van Pelt on this topic. It sounds like a good idea on paper but you would think hotrodders would have done this back in the day. Tim

My visual inspection and internal measurements of the cluster gear bore clearly shows that the entire length of the internal cluster gear IS NOT a machined polished surface to accept more caged roller bearings that what Ford specified.

[Ken/Alabama]

Other than the lousey bearings, I’ve had trouble lately finding shafts the correct diameter and hardness.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

Other than the lousey bearings, I’ve had trouble lately finding shafts the correct diameter and hardness.

So true and very important component.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Jim, when I rebuilt my '41 trans I put Koyo B1212 bearings in the cluster gear. They are a needle roller in a drawn cup and pressed into the cluster. Full complement of rollers and specs for load looked good. 26,000 miles on it and all is well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/39463821364...3ABFBMlPveuL9j

Cadillac512: I just measured the ID of my cluster that fits a 1941 Ford and it's 1.124 in. That is a lot larger than the 1 in. od of the Koyo B 1212 bearing How were you able to make that Koyo bearing fit securely as it's OD is too small for a press fit?

[Oldcarbearings]

Apparently there's a " cartridge" type bearing bearing replacement that Macs sells,
What you could do/is a inner race that sits on the shaft&the B7121 sits on the inner race/sleeve therefore eliminating surface wear, or use machine needle roller cage that has a built in inner race/sleeve these are called NU type needle roller cages.

[Oldcarbearings]

BEWARE of Kobe brand sold in a black&orange or red box they're made in china,
As is most Ford spare parts vendors selling B7121 as NONE are made in USA anymore try to find either: O.E.M/ORIGINAL FORD OR HYATT/RBC/BOWER.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by Oldcarbearings

Apparently there's a " cartridge" type bearing bearing replacement that Macs sells,
What you could do/is a inner race that sits on the shaft&the B7121 sits on the inner race/sleeve therefore eliminating surface wear, or use machine needle roller cage that has a built in inner race/sleeve these are called NU type needle roller cages.

Oldcarbearings: I looked for that bearing that Mac's sells and couldn't find it.
Can you post the source for that bearing you mentioned?
Does it look like this:
https://www.skf.com/group/products/r...oller-bearings
To press fit into a Ford cluster gear bore it would have to have an OD of at least 1.127in.
It also must have an ID of .750 in. or this:
https://www.radwell.com/Shop?source=...%20-%20Remnant
Length is also critical so as to match OEM FORD bearing lengths.

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Cadillac512: I just measured the ID of my cluster that fits a 1941 Ford and it's 1.124 in. That is a lot larger than the 1 in. od of the Koyo B 1212 bearing How were you able to make that Koyo bearing fit securely as it's OD is too small for a press fit?

My answer is...I don't know what the heck is going on. I replaced the bad cluster and other gears with a complete set from a friend, changing from the 15/29 to a16/28 set and those bearings are the part numbers I wrote in my notes. Hmm....I need to check further.



Terry

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Oldcarbearings: I looked for that bearing that Mac's sells and couldn't find it.
Can you post the source for that bearing you mentioned?
Does it look like this:
https://www.skf.com/group/products/r...oller-bearings
To press fit into a Ford cluster gear bore it would have to have an OD of at least 1.127in.
It also must have an ID of .750 in. or this:
https://www.radwell.com/Shop?source=...%20-%20Remnant
Length is also critical so as to match OEM FORD bearing lengths.

I am no engineer, but I don't see the advantage of converting the cluster to press fit bearings in this situation. What would be the advantage to this?

[19Fordy]

Like Tim said, "I am no engineer, but I don't see the advantage of converting the cluster to press fit bearings in this situation. What would be the advantage to this?"

I guess the only advantage is that you might be able to find "press fit bearings" that are of better quality than the China reproductions and work well.

It would be great if someone would actually post the part number of the press fit bearing that actually works as well as the OEM Ford bearing.

Here is the website of Consolidated Bearings where you can type in the bearing specs you need and search for a suitable needle bearing. I wonder if the inner sleeve needed comes with the bearing?
https://consbrgs.com/catalog/search-products/

Can someone explain how you can press this type bearing into a bore and not deform the outer cage? I think the install is similar to this procedure using an inner sleeve.
https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervie...CA74&FORM=VIRE

[Will Kimble]

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NOS or good used bearings are perfectly adequate. Check condition of rollers, check for racking and check for hardened end plates.

If the caged rollers give you the heebie jeebies then source an 8A-7113 small bore cluster gear and use the loose needles.

On the other hand, I am interested in any application of modern bearings to these old transmissions. Keep the ideas coming.

[GB SISSON]

Well.... It just so happens I am in the middle of rebuilding the transfer case for the 'foyota', my toyota landcruiser in ford clothing. The guys on the primary landcruiser forum are very particular about where 'overseas' their parts are manufactured. A lot of the parts from the early cruisers are no longer available from toyota, but the Japanese aftermarket hard parts like bearings and gears are the go to for the faithful. After reading this thread I decided I should open the box that arrived yesterday from a landcruiser supplier. All the parts are made in Japan including gaskets and seals. The (caged?) roller bearings are for a set of idler gears that ride on a 1" shaft. There is no sleeve. The kit comes with a new idler shaft as it is considered a wear item. Mine has just under 200k on it and shows about .003 of wear on one end. There was a post 3 days ago from a guy that bought a case hardened 1" shaft from McMaster Carr and had a friend machine a groove on one end and a thread into one end. So, while all this stuff is new to me, I think it's timely that maybe some alternatives to the other 'overseas' bearings and shafts may be at hand. I don't see any markings on the caged bearings, but all others in the box are of Japanese manufacture. They also look like they could be pressed in place as long as the interference wasn't to great. Of course the size would be different for our Fords. Just thinking out loud here.

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

My answer is...I don't know what the heck is going on. I replaced the bad cluster and other gears with a complete set from a friend, changing from the 15/29 to a16/28 set and those bearings are the part numbers I wrote in my notes. Hmm....I need to check further.



Terry

The 8A 7113 cluster has a 1" bore and the bearings I listed fit that cluster...that's the reason. My newer gear set (installed in the '41 case) allowed me to use the B1212 bearings.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Well.... It just so happens I am in the middle of rebuilding the transfer case for the 'foyota', my toyota landcruiser in ford clothing. The guys on the primary landcruiser forum are very particular about where 'overseas' their parts are manufactured. A lot of the parts from the early cruisers are no longer available from toyota, but the Japanese aftermarket hard parts like bearings and gears are the go to for the faithful. After reading this thread I decided I should open the box that arrived yesterday from a landcruiser supplier. All the parts are made in Japan including gaskets and seals. The (caged?) roller bearings are for a set of idler gears that ride on a 1" shaft. There is no sleeve. The kit comes with a new idler shaft as it is considered a wear item. Mine has just under 200k on it and shows about .003 of wear on one end. There was a post 3 days ago from a guy that bought a case hardened 1" shaft from McMaster Carr and had a friend machine a groove on one end and a thread into one end. So, while all this stuff is new to me, I think it's timely that maybe some alternatives to the other 'overseas' bearings and shafts may be at hand. I don't see any markings on the caged bearings, but all others in the box are of Japanese manufacture. They also look like they could be pressed in place as long as the interference wasn't to great. Of course the size would be different for our Fords. Just thinking out loud here.

[cas3]

Sliding off coarse a bit...That double gear GB has sitting next to the transfer case is the intermediate gear which runs on the caged rollers that failed for me. In my case, the gear was an NOS Willys gear, the teeth survived but the inner bearing surface was wrecked.
The solution, the rock crawler guys have come up with is you send the gear to herm the overdrive guy in WA state and he machines the gear to take a timkin bearing cup on each end , then timkin bearings sit on a shaft with a shoulder and you set the pre load like a front wheel bearing. Very strong and runs quieter, saved my original gear.

GB those Koyo bearings look well made. Carry on....

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

The 8A 7113 cluster has a 1" bore and the bearings I listed fit that cluster...that's the reason. My newer gear set (installed in the '41 case) allowed me to use the B1212 bearings.

Gosh Terry, I just remeasured the internal dia. machined bore of cluster gears 022-7113-A and 68-7113 and both are 1.125 in. and 6.59 in long.

I wonder if Henry changed his specs. somewhere along the line. I don't see 8A-7113 listed in the GREEN BIBLE. However, I did find 8A-7113-A for 1949-50 Fords on Google. Also, here:
https://www.2040-parts.com/nos-1949-...a7113-i203082/
https://cgfordparts.com/cluster-gear...8a-7113-a.html

Thanks for hanging in there with this discussion. Jim

[cadillac512]

That must be the gear set I got to put in my case. The cluster is the one that originally used loose rollers with no cages. That's why it's smaller ID...it's all coming back to me. You'd think I'd remember better. Geez.

[GB SISSON]

Seems to me the green bible only goes to 1948 models. And Skip this transfer case job is a practice run for my woodie's transmission. It's actually way easier than I thought. A little help from some landcruiser geeks on youtube.

[Oldcarbearings]

No it's neither of those type of bearings google "NU" needle roller bearings.

[Oldcarbearings]

Less wear to minimal wear on the shaft + the bearing (NU type) comes with a inner race,
So that instead of the bearing sitting on the shaft only the inner race/sleeve does therefore eliminating wear.

[big deuce]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

I just measured the dia. of the countershaft. It's .748in. dia. along its entire length from end to end.
The reason for this this idea is twofold:

1. to increase and utilize the bearing support surface.

2. CW MOSS reports that the repro. bearings are of low quality and they won't sell them. Therefore, I was thinking using 2 good condition used Ford bearings would be a safe bet.

I have some parts in my cart from CW Moss, some are they cluster caged bearings, which ones are they selling, if they refuse the sell the "bad" ones?

[Bored&Stroked]

I believe the original shafts at .750 on the nose - and are very hard (heat treated). I could not find any NOS shafts, so I made my own out of hard linear shafting from Thomson. All the repop ones that I've seen are made with inferior materials, have poor surface finish and are not hard enough. They're also undersized by a thou or two - which adds slop and contributes to leaks in the front/rear of the case.

I bought the shafts with the last 2" or so of the end soft. This allowed me to add the pin-hole that is needed in the rear (using a carbide end-mill) along with a custom o-ring that I put on the shafts to help seal them. I think I purchased them through McMaster-Carr. I'm not sure what is available today, but they had them in various lengths (so I could get exactly what I needed). They were 60 rockwell in hardness

[Bored&Stroked]

Here are a couple of the shafts I made - these ones have "end caps" to seal the oil from leaking out. Since then I've been using o-rings (with grooves) on the ends of each shaft. I also shorten the little rod in the back and TAP the ends to seal it up.

NewShafts2 copy.jpg

NewShaftsWithEndCaps copy.jpg

[Bored&Stroked]

I went back and checked my pictures I took of when I miced some shafts. As you can see, my new shafts are spot-on, while the repop ones are .002 smaller in the OD. This causes slop in the bearings as well as additional case leakage. Also the repops are nowhere near as hard as the originals or ground with the correct finish.

Original Shaft: Non-Worn Area:

OriginalShaft-UnwornArea copy.jpg

New Reproduction Shafts: .002 smaller

NewReproduction copy.jpg

My New Shaft:

DalesNewShaftDiameter copy.jpg