Indented Firewall

[Matej1991]

I have a question about indented firewall. I own a Ford Model A deluxe fordor sedan slant windshield (160-C) with an indented firewall and would like to know. Were there indented firewalls for the Victoria and the standard and deluxe fordor sedan with a straight windshield?

[Oldbluoval]

Yep all those had indented firewalls after change over date
Trucks too.. interesting to see some straight firewalls that were restruck for the indented setup during production
Henry used everything

[Matej1991]

I don't think you're right. Because I wrote Victoria but the one with Leatherback did not have an indented firewall.

[Oldbluoval]

I never said and you didn’t ask if all of them were indented. There were Vics made in late 30 with non-indented firewalls. Many of the early Vic’s were leatherbacks so likely more non-indented. Your sample of one is not authoritative…I’ve worked/seen many.
Not bothering to look it up I think the change over was April-may 31. The body styles you mentioned may have been in both configurations
You may not think I’m right but trust me I am!
You posted seeking info, maybe others will confirm …

[Oldbluoval]

I will say I’ve never seen and indented firewall leatherback.
Basically, because I stay away from leatherbacks. Their unpopularity was one reason they came out with redesigned steel back. Leatherbacks were/are problematic. Bad to rust under the padded top.

[Matej1991]

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But if Ford started producing indented firewalls at the end of April, it doesn't mean that it was immediately and first he had to use up all flat firewalls. I couldn't find anywhere until when the standard and deluxe fordor sedan were produced. Because the straight windshield was replaced by the slant windshield, and many slant windshields still have a flat firewall. For example, the deluxe fordor sedan 170-B, so it also has an indented firewall?

[Bob Bidonde]

From the record of surviving 190A Victorias:
> Of 238 Leather-Backs having Murray body numbers, 13 have indented firewalls;
> Indented firewalls in production Steel-Backs become prevalent in May of 1931.
In my opinion, the 13 Leather-Backs with indented firewalls had their firewalls replaced in accordance with the service bulletin for repair of leaking gas tanks.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Matej1991

But if Ford started producing indented firewalls at the end of April, it doesn't mean that it was immediately and first he had to use up all flat firewalls. I couldn't find anywhere until when the standard and deluxe fordor sedan were produced. Because the straight windshield was replaced by the slant windshield, and many slant windshields still have a flat firewall. For example, the deluxe fordor sedan 170-B, so it also has an indented firewall?

This is an area where many myths have been told and are now believed as gospel. There is much to research that counters what you are suggesting.

To begin with, there is this myth that says Ford used up inventory first before the superseded item was put into production. To begin with, people need to understand that Ford Engineering knew exactly what vehicle each item would be slated for down to the very last unit, ...so thinking that the assembly line workers were just using up remaining inventory is false. Next, often times the existing inventory that was being superseded was removed from the Branches and transported to the Depots to be redistributed for use at Agencies as Service Replacement parts.

Next, you cannot always date bodies manufactured by outside vendors. You would need to check Foreman's logs and check Purchase Orders to the vendor (body manufacturer) to see what date the order was actually made. It may have been a March P.O. with a delivery date for June of 1931. This is part of the reason why the 'restruck' firewalls as the new gas tanks were being used and remaining 9002-C tanks were likely shipped to Depots for Service Replacement inventory.

Also for clarity, just know that an indented firewall was not slated for just DeLuxe vehicles. It was for all production.

[CT Jack]

I don't understand why the indented firewall was ever implemented. It was introduced toward the end of Model A production run, it required changing the firewall stamping die, it required changing the fuel tank drain location, and it added a different style shutoff valve. This to me was not "a better idea". It had to impact the cost of manufacture but most of all it added the royal pain of having to open the hood to shut off the fuel line. I have an indented firewall and would enjoy being able to shut off the fuel from inside.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by CT Jack

I don't understand why the indented firewall was ever implemented. It was introduced toward the end of Model A production run, it required changing the firewall stamping die, it required changing the fuel tank drain location, and it added a different style shutoff valve. This to me was not "a better idea". It had to impact the cost of manufacture but most of all it added the royal pain of having to open the hood to shut off the fuel line. I have an indented firewall and would enjoy being able to shut off the fuel from inside.

The issue was the US Dept of Transportation required that an exposed fuel line could not pass thru the cabin of a vehicle where passenger occupants were riding. It was not Ford's idea to change it, ...it was the federal government. In 90+ years, it doesn't seem like much has changed with the government!!

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by CT Jack

I don't understand why the indented firewall was ever implemented. It was introduced toward the end of Model A production run, it required changing the firewall stamping die, it required changing the fuel tank drain location, and it added a different style shutoff valve. This to me was not "a better idea". It had to impact the cost of manufacture but most of all it added the royal pain of having to open the hood to shut off the fuel line. I have an indented firewall and would enjoy being able to shut off the fuel from inside.

You could buy an earlier A !! or you could add an electric fuel valve!!

[Matej1991]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

From the record of surviving 190A Victorias:
> Of 238 Leather-Backs having Murray body numbers, 13 have indented firewalls;
> Indented firewalls in production Steel-Backs become prevalent in May of 1931.
In my opinion, the 13 Leather-Backs with indented firewalls had their firewalls replaced in accordance with the service bulletin for repair of leaking gas tanks.

Thank you and can you tell me if they had an indented firewall as well as a standard and deluxe fordor sedan with straight windshield?

[Matej1991]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

This is an area where many myths have been told and are now believed as gospel. There is much to research that counters what you are suggesting.

To begin with, there is this myth that says Ford used up inventory first before the superseded item was put into production. To begin with, people need to understand that Ford Engineering knew exactly what vehicle each item would be slated for down to the very last unit, ...so thinking that the assembly line workers were just using up remaining inventory is false. Next, often times the existing inventory that was being superseded was removed from the Branches and transported to the Depots to be redistributed for use at Agencies as Service Replacement parts.

Next, you cannot always date bodies manufactured by outside vendors. You would need to check Foreman's logs and check Purchase Orders to the vendor (body manufacturer) to see what date the order was actually made. It may have been a March P.O. with a delivery date for June of 1931. This is part of the reason why the 'restruck' firewalls as the new gas tanks were being used and remaining 9002-C tanks were likely shipped to Depots for Service Replacement inventory.

Also for clarity, just know that an indented firewall was not slated for just DeLuxe vehicles. It was for all production.

Ford produced large quantities of cars and parts for the Model A, and if it knew exactly when it would use up all the parts, then why were the parts used in other models? Like Model B and Model 40?

I did not write that the indented firewall was only used in deluxe models. I wrote that in that case the deluxe fordor sedan blindback can also have an indented firewall because it was produced in April.

Indented firewalls were also used in the Ford Model AA and they were not deluxe.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Matej1991

I have a question about indented firewall. I own a Ford Model A deluxe fordor sedan slant windshield (160-C) with an indented firewall and would like to know. Were there indented firewalls for the Victoria and the standard and deluxe fordor sedan with a straight windshield?

Originally Posted by Matej1991

Ford produced large quantities of cars?? and parts for the Model A, and if it knew exactly when it would use up all the parts, then why were the parts used in other models? Like Model B and Model 40?

I did not write that the indented firewall was only used in deluxe models. I wrote that in that case the deluxe fordor sedan blindback can also have an indented firewall because it was produced in April.

Indented firewalls were also used in the Ford Model AA and they were not deluxe.

And I believe I specified "For clarity ..." so that others who would read your post would understand.


I am not totally sure what you meant when you said "Ford produced large quantities of cars... for the Model A" but I will answer your questions that I highlighted in bold black the best that I can. Ford Motor Company was a very well run and organized company, -largely because of John Burroughs's influence and the other two Vagabonds. Contrary to what many might think, the quantities of all parts were manufactured for an intended purpose on a specific vehicle. In other words, if management decided they were going to produce 85,000 units in May of 1931, they knew EXACTLY which body styles they were going to build, -which color schemes and trim levels each of those bodies would be, ...and even where each of those vehicles were to be assembled and distributed. Therefore producing random quantities on each sub-component just did not happen as that would have been cost prohibitive on so many levels. Each item down to the smallest of item was manufactured with the intention to be installed onto a vehicle that was completely planned for. This is all VERY clear when you research the Foreman's Logs and research the P.O.s that were given to vendors for them to produce components as it shows the time allocations. Breaking this down further as proof, Ford's workers did not randomly choose on any given day to manufacture Ford Maroon or Brewster Green in any quantity they desired. Instead, management gave the Foremen instructions on which color they wanted produced, the ingredients (shown on the M-Spec's cards) and the quantity that management wanted. Management knew this number because they knew which bodies were slated for production and the colors in which each of those bodies were to be painted. The same applies to management knew exactly which type of fabric and which trim level was going into each particular body.

And, to add to this, this level of knowledge and their meticulous planning is proven throughout production simply by what came down the assembly line each and every day at multiple Branches. When each vehicle was assembled and starting with the frame, management knew whether the vehicle was to be equipped with a sidemounted spare, and the workers knew which rear spring to install onto the rear axle assembly. They knew which rear bumper brackets to install, and they knew what wiring harness to install. At the same moment several floors up, the correct body for that particular chassis was to be put into sequence so it would be installed onto the correct chassis in sequence. The same applies for the body aprons, hood, radiator shell, etc. Without preplanning for where each of these components were to be used, they could easily have malfunctions or incorrect quantities of parts that would halt assembly of vehicles.

To answer your question as to why were components that were engineered or manufactured during Model-A manufacturing era used on subsequent models, the simple answer is 'Why not??'. If the component could be used on subsequent models of vehicles, think of the time & $$ saved by not 'reinventing the wheel'. Use what they already had if it would work well. Make revisions if that was needed to be more cost-effective. And for the record, there were many components used in Model-A construction that were designed and used on the Model-T first. I recently posted a picture on Fordbarn of the A-17704 Rear View Mirror engineer's print that shows it was used on the Model-T beginning in the early 1920s. This mirror was used throughout production on closed Model-A bodystyles, ...and then continued being used thru the middle 1930s on B/18/40/ ...et/al. Surely we are not to believe that Ford management was just using 'left-over stock' they had produced during the 1920s era for Model-Ts on Model-As and early V8s are we??

[Matej1991]

Sorry, but Bob Bidonde has the only short answer.

With the answer Ford produced large quantities of cars and parts, I wanted to say that it was the 30's and not the year 2022 where savings are made in production. If there was a system in the 30's that everything I produce was consumed immediately, this world would look different. I have been working in the automotive industry for 13 years and I see that there are always parts left over from the previous production.

That's why I wrote "Blindback" because production ended in April, but if it ended before the end of April, why would they put an indented firewall in a car that ends production.

[Matej1991]

*Bob Bidonde had the best answer that helped me.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Matej1991

Sorry, but Bob Bidonde has the only short answer.

With the answer Ford produced large quantities of cars and parts, I wanted to say that it was the 30's and not the year 2022 where savings are made in production. If there was a system in the 30's that everything I produce was consumed immediately, this world would look different. I have been working in the automotive industry for 13 years and I see that there are always parts left over from the previous production.

That's why I wrote "Blindback" because production ended in April, but if it ended before the end of April, why would they put an indented firewall in a car that ends production.

Seems like your the expert then.

[Matej1991]

I like how you select only a part and react to it.

But when you wrote that Ford produced parts in the 30's and used them all, it must be true ...

[Oldbluoval]

Disputatious

[Matej1991]

I'm argumentative when I write my opinion?