Engine temp rises when I get to cruise speed

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Apologies for the Patience Princess response. I don't know Ronnieroadster other than his comments on this thread. I was in the middle of a phone call, typing and getting a payroll finalized. He was flaming on a forum and I should have just ignored him because his comment wasn't relevant.

Joe's principal concern is occurring at high speed e.g. 60mph and the recovery at 50-40 mph. I have said it and said it and said it again. It is not the fans that I suspect, its the shroud. The shroud manufacturer suspects the same because they recommended Joe remove the plastic trim core area blocking the core, raise the fan and vent the solid parts of the fan shroud. I go a step further and say remove the shroud entirely. You should keep a fan (puller recommended, pusher if you can't fit one) because you need it when you come of the highway and this is exactly where Joe is not recovering e.g. heat soaking. The absence a fan will create a problem at ~38-40 mph and below because of limited airflow. What I recommend regarding fans is maximizing cfm however, I am dubious of many of the claims made by electric fan manufacturers which is why I only recommend SPAL. He may get the cfm with his cooling components fan and no shroud or he may get there with the flex-a-lite puller or he may get there with a combination of a SPAL pusher and a puller. Its not the brand but the maximum cfm that matters at the speed where he is not recovering.

I have been working with Joe on the phone and messaging on instagram. Presently he is removing the fan and shroud and trying a different one. This removal of the fan I recommended but he is spending more money without gathering information first. This again is his decision.

The reason you don't hear me say its the radiator core is that he has not removed the shroud, what I suspect is the root of problem yet and provided numbers. Until he reports back, I can speak to the radiator and this engine .

The face area of a 1935 Ford radiator is ~379 square inches. A 1951 ford radiator face area is ~440 square inches and a 1951 Mercury is ~475. Joe's pairing of this engine to this radiator space sacrifices 14% - 20% of face area right out of the gate because of the engine - car design.

The core Joe ordered was thicker than the '51 but it has 90% of the cubic area of the '51 radiator and ~80% of '51 Mercury. The core he ordered also has has more tubes, better geometry of tube and a comparable fin density. In a nutshell, he is one step backward and a little bit forward but Joe also added heat demands with his supercharger and has "unknown" demands from tinkering with the engine timing, thermostats, fluid composition etc. Perhaps this is where Ronnieroadster can help him.

Joe and I discussed engine temperatures and ranges and Joe tells me he would accept a 200 degree top end on his 51 flathead with a supercharger. I think this is reasonable expectation and achievable. I know we all want 180 degrees all the time but the reality is engines operate at a range and the high and low end and both ends matter. It is also a reality that there are numerous engine temperatures on the engine so you may cause an undue concern based on where you take the temperature from. Settle down forum, I am not saying Joe's concern is undue. He is seeing 210 and wants 200. He is 10 degrees from being satisfied with his upper bound engine temperature and I think he can get there without a new core or buying more fans (which he keeps doing). I am also more interested in the 50-40mph temperatures because this will trigger recommendation 2, the addition of more cfm for recovery. Joe says he will not do this, again, his decision.

I think he's closer to his goal than he realizes but as told him, I don't think he is going to be a 180 degree flathead based on the pairing and mods he has made and he agreed.

Now this is where we should be! I have removed the CCI fan/shroud and I'm awaiting the puller fan. Looks like rain tomorrow, but hopefully I can get that fan in, whenever it gets here, and well go from there.
I don't drive my car when it's about 80 degrees outside, Usually just an hour ride on Sunday mornings with my daughter. She's special needs and absolutely LOVES the sound and feel of the car she happily calls "Big Fat Bubba"!!
Thank you Lee

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by sshep

"The way we generally strive for rights is by getting our fighting blood up; and I venture to say that is the long way and not the short way. If you come at me with your fists doubled, I think I can promise you that mine will double as fast as yours; but if you come to me and say, “Let us sit down and take counsel together, and, if we differ from one another, understand why it is that we differ from one another, just what the points at issue are,” we will presently find that we are not so far apart after all, that the points on which we differ are few and the points on which we agree are many, and that if we only have the patience and the candor and the desire to get together, we will get together."


Woodrow Wilson

Amazing words spoken by a man MUCH smarter than me!!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

I just want to say thank you to everyone that's following this thread and supporting what it's all about.
I never claimed to be the smartest, most intellectual, well spoken guy. I don't have a quarter of experience as most here on the Barn.
I got into this hobby because I love cars, and have to feed my family
I don't want to create tension between people or hurt anyone's feelings.
I just want to survive the fordbarn forum
Thanks again,
Lee

I believe you have survived!! Welcome!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Hey Lee, just want to let you know that I appreciate the detailed response and also the fact that you had your feathers ruffled a bit and you've come back to the site of the "ruffling" and brought some positive and constructive thoughts/ideas.

In the end, that is what we're all here for and hopefully Joe can get his car cooling as it needs to cool. With a few more tests (changing one variable at a time), we'll all have a better understanding of the situation and what options he has to deal with it.

Also, the vast majority of us on this site are not here to flame anybody - we all have a likeminded passion and we're trying to help one another out. Also, we depend on a host of vendors to supply the parts/expertise we need to keep these old beasts on the road. That is about it . . . so you'll survive.

Take care,
B&S

I'm excited to get this done, believe me!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Great response both Lee and Dale #197 & #199
Let’s keep the positive dialogue going. Thanks.

Hey! What about me?? I said sorry first HAHAHAHAH!!
Thanks KiWi

[KiWinUS]

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Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Hey! What about me?? I said sorry first HAHAHAHAH!!
Thanks KiWi

Joe. You come first and foremost here!!!!
Thanks for letting us all feel like we are involved. Cheers
Tony

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Joe. You come first and foremost here!!!!
Thanks for letting us all feel like we are involved. Cheers
Tony

Lol! Thanks Tony, now I feel special! Thank you, Joe

[jrvariel48]

I mounted the fan and put everything back together last night.
I'm hoping to start the car and get testing later today.

[jrvariel48]

OK so I started and drove the car today. I didn't get a lot of set time, but here's what I have.
81 degrees 45% humidity Party sunny
10% propylene glycol and 90% tap water
Fan on, started car and let idle. About 3 minutes running & temp gauge went to 210*
T-stats opened and temp dropped to 170*
Heat gun showed 160* at top tank and 120* bottom tank
Temp gauge in head showed 175* at water neck and 160* at water pump.
I drove the back roads doing 20-30 and 30-40 mph for about 10 minutes and temp went to 180*
Got on the high way and drove 50-65 for only 5 minutes and temp went to 190*
Took back roads home and the temp stayed at 190*
Pulled in the driveway and let it idle to get some readings
I had 188* at top tank and 178* at bottom tank.
Head gauge showed 195* and water pump gauge showed 185*
This is definitely better than before!
I used a cheap anemometer to get some air readings. If any of you have experience with an anemometer
I'd like to know if I'm using properly and doing my calculations correctly


I'm sure Lee would be able to help with the following numbers and procedure.


The fan is a 16" puller Flex-a-lite Flex-wave #238 with 3000 advertised cfm.
It's mounted close to the bottom of the top tank.
I got a low reading of 1215 FPM and a high of 1929 FPM
I converted FPM to CFM as I found on an online calculator.
I used square inches for the fan area 16X16=256 square inches I chose this measurement, but I'm wondering if I should use the entire radiator square inches. I don't think that would be the way to go because the fan is not pulling over the entire radiator.
I came up with 2146 cfm on the low end and 3407 cfm on the high end.
This is through the radiator. Being that the advertised cfm is 3000, I doubt very much my numbers are correct.
I could also try different wind measurements

[ford38v8]

You don’t mention the bottom front radiator pan. You had previously agreed to install it but never followed up on that.

[Angledrive]

Can you shut the electric fan off while driving over 35mph?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

You don’t mention the bottom front radiator pan. You had previously agreed to install it but never followed up on that.

Sorry the grille and lower pan are still not on

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Angledrive

Can you shut the electric fan off while driving over 35mph?

Yes I can It’s on a switch I can certainly try that

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Sorry the grille and lower pan are still not on

All your temp readings are meaningless until you have configured the directional air flow components as the car was designed to have.

[rich b]

Wonder how much the lower grille pan on a '35 does as it pretty much all slots?

[Ziggster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

OK so I started and drove the car today. I didn't get a lot of set time, but here's what I have.
81 degrees 45% humidity Party sunny
10% propylene glycol and 90% tap water
Fan on, started car and let idle. About 3 minutes running & temp gauge went to 210*
T-stats opened and temp dropped to 170*
Heat gun showed 160* at top tank and 120* bottom tank
Temp gauge in head showed 175* at water neck and 160* at water pump.
I drove the back roads doing 20-30 and 30-40 mph for about 10 minutes and temp went to 180*
Got on the high way and drove 50-65 for only 5 minutes and temp went to 190*
Took back roads home and the temp stayed at 190*
Pulled in the driveway and let it idle to get some readings
I had 188* at top tank and 178* at bottom tank.
Head gauge showed 195* and water pump gauge showed 185*
This is definitely better than before!
I used a cheap anemometer to get some air readings. If any of you have experience with an anemometer
I'd like to know if I'm using properly and doing my calculations correctly


I'm sure Lee would be able to help with the following numbers and procedure.


The fan is a 16" puller Flex-a-lite Flex-wave #238 with 3000 advertised cfm.
It's mounted close to the bottom of the top tank.
I got a low reading of 1215 FPM and a high of 1929 FPM
I converted FPM to CFM as I found on an online calculator.
I used square inches for the fan area 16X16=256 square inches I chose this measurement, but I'm wondering if I should use the entire radiator square inches. I don't think that would be the way to go because the fan is not pulling over the entire radiator.
I came up with 2146 cfm on the low end and 3407 cfm on the high end.
This is through the radiator. Being that the advertised cfm is 3000, I doubt very much my numbers are correct.
I could also try different wind measurements

Not sure I follow as you mention 16” dia fan, but calculate the area as 16”x16” = 256 in square (area for 16” dia circle = 200 in sq). You will not be able to obtain any reliable actual airflow numbers without the fan being ducted over a length equivalent to a certain number of fan diameters (I’ve forgotten the formula). Certainly do not measure the airflow after the fan as it will be way too turbulent. Your best bet if you are still inclined is to meaure airflow over the area in front of the radiator in a grid like pattern so that at most you can compare readings with different configurations. Make a simple cardboard duct with the same dimensions as whatever the fan shroud is on the other side. Line up the duct with the shroud on the other side. Poke holes in the cardboard to stick the anemometer through for consistency, and if it is a probe type, insert it in at different depths. Again, this would just be for comparison purposes an not for absolute measurements. Does Brassworks have any airflow vs pressure drop data for their radiators or specifically the one you have as it would help determine how much airflow a given fan might pull/push, but of course you would need the corresponding curve from the fan manufacturer.
Not to dissuade you as I myself find all this super interesting as an engineer, but you’re really getting into borderline engineering testing/prototyping, which then needs to be done IAW accepted standards if you really are determined to measure absolute airflow values.

[Tinker]

Seems like things are moving forward. That's good. Even if it doesn't work.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

All your temp readings are meaningless until you have configured the directional air flow components as the car was designed to have.

I can put it back on this weekend.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by rich b

Wonder how much the lower grille pan on a '35 does as it pretty much all slots?

I'm hoping it does something!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

Not sure I follow as you mention 16” dia fan, but calculate the area as 16”x16” = 256 in square (area for 16” dia circle = 200 in sq). You will not be able to obtain any reliable actual airflow numbers without the fan being ducted over a length equivalent to a certain number of fan diameters (I’ve forgotten the formula). Certainly do not measure the airflow after the fan as it will be way too turbulent. Your best bet if you are still inclined is to meaure airflow over the area in front of the radiator in a grid like pattern so that at most you can compare readings with different configurations. Make a simple cardboard duct with the same dimensions as whatever the fan shroud is on the other side. Line up the duct with the shroud on the other side. Poke holes in the cardboard to stick the anemometer through for consistency, and if it is a probe type, insert it in at different depths. Again, this would just be for comparison purposes an not for absolute measurements. Does Brassworks have any airflow vs pressure drop data for their radiators or specifically the one you have as it would help determine how much airflow a given fan might pull/push, but of course you would need the corresponding curve from the fan manufacturer.
Not to dissuade you as I myself find all this super interesting as an engineer, but you’re really getting into borderline engineering testing/prototyping, which then needs to be done IAW accepted standards if you really are determined to measure absolute airflow values.

Wow Ziggster That's impressive!! I didn't realize what really needed to be done to get number info. I was trying to see what I was getting on this fan in a simple way incase I had to change it and try a different fan.
I guess what I'm trying to do is not useful info if it's not complete and done properly. Thanks Joe