Burtz seal question

[Towd56]

I've got a crank with a turned down slinger. It's a full insert motor so I'm also using the bronze seal which slips into the block. The directions for the one piece nitrile seal say to pressure test "with oil". I've installed it all following directions to a tee. I'm not sure on the pressure testing part?

When I put a slight bit of air into the oil drain pipe - it holds NO pressure at all. Is it supposed to hold air ?

I realize this may not be the ideal set up but it's what I have to work with for now.

Did I screw Something up??? It seemed like it went together as it should

Thanks

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

This is copied from the instructions:

2) Without the crankshaft in place, assemble the seal with its lip facing towards front of engine, shims, block insert, and rear main cap to the engine. Check to be sure the seal fits properly in its grooves, and is not distorted or offset relative to the rear main bearing. The seal is designed to fit snugly into the original block insert (A-6335). Most reproduction block inserts have a groove that is not compatible with this seal.

If your bronze block insert has a groove different than the original Ford part, the seal will not work.

Most engine re-builders save the original Ford part (A-6335) when they scrap an unusable cylinder block.

[Towd56]

thank you
Hmm - it didn't leak before i took it apart. Same components just a new seal. The seal seemed to fit in there very nice. Is it supposed to hold air???

Do I have any alternatives with this ?

[Tom Wesenberg]

No, the pipe should not hold any air pressure. You want free flow for the oil to drain back into the sump.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

If you used the same components, you should have no problem.
Air is thinner than oil and will leak.
Try pressurizing with oil.
If you want to experiment with air, tape a plastic bag around the rear main and blow air into the drain pipe. If the bag doesn't inflate, you are good to go.

[Towd56]

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Got it - thank you

[jfreddie]

Another way to test is to assemble everything, turn the block vertical, squirt oil into the drain tube to fill it up, and watch to see if oil leaks past the seal.

Some light seepage is okay after a few hours but not much.

[Baypac]

Originally Posted by Towd56

I've got a crank with a turned down slinger. It's a full insert motor so I'm also using the bronze seal which slips into the block. The directions for the one piece nitrile seal say to pressure test "with oil". I've installed it all following directions to a tee. I'm not sure on the pressure testing part?

When I put a slight bit of air into the oil drain pipe - it holds NO pressure at all. Is it supposed to hold air ?

I realize this may not be the ideal set up but it's what I have to work with for now.

Did I screw Something up??? It seemed like it went together as it should

Thanks

You only need a about 12 to 16 inches of oil pressure to test the seal. Here is a setup that worked for me.

[Synchro909]

To broaden this thread, I have the same situation and same problem with a B motor. It is so bad, I made a janitor for it so it doesn't leave a puddle of oil where ever I stop. My situation is the same right down to replacing the seal and somehow creating a leak. What is the recommendation of the forum (for both of us)?
Synchro dog tired after sitting up to watch the Comm Games.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

To broaden this thread, I have the same situation and same problem with a B motor. It is so bad, I made a janitor for it so it doesn't leave a puddle of oil where ever I stop. My situation is the same right down to replacing the seal and somehow creating a leak. What is the recommendation of the forum (for both of us)?

Synchro909,
If you replaced the seal and somehow created a leak (your words), I would believe that your machine work is within tolerance, and the problem is with installation. Did you follow the instructions and pressure test the seal before installing the oil pan?



The Model B instructions are pasted below:

1) Two seals are supplied. The larger seal fits into the groove of the rear main cap (B-6327), and the smaller seal fits into the groove of the block insert (B-6335). The smaller seal will not fit properly in a poorly made reproduction block insert.
2) If desired, a replacement block insert with a groove identical to rear main cap groove can be made or purchased. In this case, discard the smaller seal and upon assembly, lubricate and carefully slip the seal over the flywheel mounting flange. A plastic sandwich bag placed over the flange will protect the seal from damage due to small burrs.
3) Thoroughly clean the grooves in the rear main bearing cap (B-6327) and block insert (B-6335) to remove all traces of dirt and oil, which may interfere with proper seal installation and sealant adhesion. Also, make sure rear main cap drain pipe is clear
4) Seat each seal with lip pointing towards front of engine (see figure) into its respective groove, and trim the ends slightly long to provide “crush” at the mating surface. A single edge razor blade and stationary disk sander work well for trimming and squaring the ends. Cut the pieces to be used long, and experiment with trimming and squaring operations on the cut off pieces.
5) Without the crankshaft in place, assemble the seal with its lip facing towards front of engine, shims, block insert, and rear main cap to the engine. Check to be sure the seal fits properly in its grooves, and is not distorted or offset relative to the rear main bearing.
6) Machine the rear slinger area of crankshaft as shown in the figure. Finished diameter shall be between 2.330 in. and 2.370 in., and concentric with the rear main journal within .001 in. to prevent whipping of the seal lip outward. Machine crankshaft to largest diameter between limits consistent with cleanup. Polish seal contact area of crankshaft to a bright smooth finish. Main bearing clearance must be between .0010 in. and .0015 in. to keep the crankshaft from whipping the seal lip outward. On final assembly, apply either an RTV silicone adhesive or Permatex #2 sparingly to both grooves and all mating surfaces where shims, rear main cap, block insert, and block meet. Avoid getting adhesive on seal lip. Also apply sealant to rear main bolts.
7) Before installing oil pan, and after adhesive has cured, test seal and rear main cap area for leakage by pressurizing the rear main cap drain pipe with motor oil to 10 psi and check for leaks.
8) If a Model B engine that has been modified to provide pressure to the connecting rods (drilled crankshaft) is using this seal, an additional oil pressure check should be done by pressurizing the rear main bearing groove that supplies connecting rod #4 to the anticipated pressure (50 psi?). If a leak occurs, it will usually be between the groove in the rear main bearing feeding rod #4 and either thru the shims or up or down the rear main bolts.



To use a one-piece seal, the replacement block insert with a groove identical to the groove in the rear main cap is manufactured by Dan Price. This part is recommended for high output engines.
http://www.dan4banger.com

Baypac is correct that the seal does not see much pressure. If the drain pipe is not obstructed, the seal is only subjected to slightly more than crankcase pressure.

Terry Burtz

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

To broaden this thread, I have the same situation and same problem with a B motor. It is so bad, I made a janitor for it so it doesn't leave a puddle of oil where ever I stop. My situation is the same right down to replacing the seal and somehow creating a leak. What is the recommendation of the forum (for both of us)?

Synchro909,
If you replaced the seal and somehow created a leak (your words), I would believe that your machine work is within tolerance, and the problem is with installation. Did you follow the instructions and pressure test the seal before installing the oil pan?



The Model B instructions are pasted below:

1) Two seals are supplied. The larger seal fits into the groove of the rear main cap (B-6327), and the smaller seal fits into the groove of the block insert (B-6335). The smaller seal will not fit properly in a poorly made reproduction block insert.
2) If desired, a replacement block insert with a groove identical to rear main cap groove can be made or purchased. In this case, discard the smaller seal and upon assembly, lubricate and carefully slip the seal over the flywheel mounting flange. A plastic sandwich bag placed over the flange will protect the seal from damage due to small burrs.
3) Thoroughly clean the grooves in the rear main bearing cap (B-6327) and block insert (B-6335) to remove all traces of dirt and oil, which may interfere with proper seal installation and sealant adhesion. Also, make sure rear main cap drain pipe is clear
4) Seat each seal with lip pointing towards front of engine (see figure) into its respective groove, and trim the ends slightly long to provide “crush” at the mating surface. A single edge razor blade and stationary disk sander work well for trimming and squaring the ends. Cut the pieces to be used long, and experiment with trimming and squaring operations on the cut off pieces.
5) Without the crankshaft in place, assemble the seal with its lip facing towards front of engine, shims, block insert, and rear main cap to the engine. Check to be sure the seal fits properly in its grooves, and is not distorted or offset relative to the rear main bearing.
6) Machine the rear slinger area of crankshaft as shown in the figure. Finished diameter shall be between 2.330 in. and 2.370 in., and concentric with the rear main journal within .001 in. to prevent whipping of the seal lip outward. Machine crankshaft to largest diameter between limits consistent with cleanup. Polish seal contact area of crankshaft to a bright smooth finish. Main bearing clearance must be between .0010 in. and .0015 in. to keep the crankshaft from whipping the seal lip outward. On final assembly, apply either an RTV silicone adhesive or Permatex #2 sparingly to both grooves and all mating surfaces where shims, rear main cap, block insert, and block meet. Avoid getting adhesive on seal lip. Also apply sealant to rear main bolts.
7) Before installing oil pan, and after adhesive has cured, test seal and rear main cap area for leakage by pressurizing the rear main cap drain pipe with motor oil to 10 psi and check for leaks.
8) If a Model B engine that has been modified to provide pressure to the connecting rods (drilled crankshaft) is using this seal, an additional oil pressure check should be done by pressurizing the rear main bearing groove that supplies connecting rod #4 to the anticipated pressure (50 psi?). If a leak occurs, it will usually be between the groove in the rear main bearing feeding rod #4 and either thru the shims or up or down the rear main bolts.



To use a one-piece seal, the replacement block insert with a groove identical to the groove in the rear main cap is manufactured by Dan Price. This part is recommended for high output engines.
http://www.dan4banger.com

Baypac is correct that the seal does not see much pressure. If the drain pipe is not obstructed, the seal is only subjected to slightly more than crankcase pressure.

Terry Burtz

Hey Terry,
Good to hear from you and learn that you are still among us !!
I've had your rear seal creation on a new B crank that Dan made many years ago. Never a drop has leaked yet ! And, I run a 45 lb custom Stipe pump, and run it hard.

[Synchro909]

Terry, I won't quote the whole thing again but respond direct.
There were no instructions came with the seal and I accept the problem is probably with the installation. I did what seemed to be the right thing and no, I didn't test it for the same reason. Are those one piece seals still available? That's what I have. If not, I think I have worked out a way of replacing the slinger (or I could just leave the janitor on it)

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Synchro909, the Model B seal has been in production since 1976.
They are available from nearly all of the Model A parts dealers, and all come with instructions. The package contains 2 seals (different x-sections) instructions and figure.
If you want a one piece seal, make sure that you have the part from Dan Price.
If possible, contact the person that installed the previous seal that didn't leak.
Regarding the slinger, avoid welding in this area as it will cause warpage that cannot be fixed by machining.
Terry Burtz

[Synchro909]

Terry, My seal came loose with no instructions, as I said and I'm starting to wish the supplier (I can't remember which one it was) hadn't done that. Who knows, I may have been sent one that someone else returned so who knows what condition it was in before I started. It may have been damaged beyond being able to work even before I got it.
I might be well advised to buy another seal for when (if) the motor is out again. It will do no harm on the shelf.
Thanks for your input.