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Old 05-24-2020, 03:06 PM   #1
Russ/40
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Default Would You Use it?

The photo below shows a block with two head gaskets in place, one on top of the other. The top one matches the block with the trapezoidal holes. I don't have those, but I do have the round hole gaskets that match the heads. Will I have any potential water leaks if I go ahead with the gaskets I have, the round hole ones. Would you use the round hole ones without worry,

I know, I'm cheap, but why spend $50 if the ones i have will be fine?
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Old 05-24-2020, 03:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

There’s another thread on here currently about having coolant leaking on a $9000 motor......for $50 bucks....I’d get the right gaskets....Mark
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:06 PM   #3
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Not worth the gamble. Do the right thing, and the right thing happens.
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

I'm a cheapskate myself, but after thinking about it; these guys are right!
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Sell the "wrong" gaskets and that will help pay for the correct ones.
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ/40 View Post
The photo below shows a block with two head gaskets in place, one on top of the other. The top one matches the block with the trapezoidal holes. I don't have those, but I do have the round hole gaskets that match the heads. Will I have any potential water leaks if I go ahead with the gaskets I have, the round hole ones. Would you use the round hole ones without worry,

I know, I'm cheap, but why spend $50 if the ones i have will be fine?

Just something to research: Could the round hole gasket be better because

it will force more coolant to the back of the block for better cooling?
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Wouldn’t the edging on the holes need to be sandwiched between surfaces in order to seal properly?
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

You ideally want the part of the gasket with the metal folded over sealing area making contact with metal on both deck face and head face. If the folded over metal part is overlapping a hole you are not making a proper seal and will be risking a leak in that area.

For what it costs you might as well just buy the correct gaskets.
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Old 05-24-2020, 05:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

I think that the verdict is in.
With the new parts in it, that engine looks nice and clean. It's not worth the risk. Get the correct head gaskets.
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

I'd have to look at the rest of the gasket water holes , But I think the round hole gasket is a better gasket than the original f Ford gasket. The parts of an engine go throu an evaluation over time and the industry comer up with little improvement. Like controling the water flow thru the block for better cooling.
I could be wrong here because I very rarely work on stock engines.
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Old 05-25-2020, 12:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

When mixing and matching...using older heads on new block we use the gasket that match the heads...not the block...just my 2c.
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:03 AM   #12
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

There were two different replacement gaskets available from Ford.
The holes in the heads determined which to use.
#6051 for small holes in heads.
#6051-A for large holes.
If small holes in the heads, use the one with small holes.
Also less areas that are susceptible to blowout.
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Do any modern gasket manufacturers make a set of quality head gaskets with the trapazoid style water holes? I don't believe I've seen any?

If it was mine, I'd run Best Gaskets Graphtite composite head gaskets and maybe put a bit of copper-coat type sealer on the block surface/side of the gasket. All you're trying to do is seal the water - not compression in this area and I don't believe you'd have an issue.

So there yah have it . . . yet another man's opinion!
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Doesn't apply here but the early pump in head head gaskets did indeed have larger holes in back and smaller holes in front . The intent was to get equal water flow to the front and back areas of the head . Cannot find pics right now but this is in the books .
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Old 05-25-2020, 02:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
Do any modern gasket manufacturers make a set of quality head gaskets with the trapazoid style water holes? I don't believe I've seen any?

FYI, All the vendors carry them, Rock Auto does too for the best price - Felpro $19.00 ea.
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:42 PM   #16
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FYI, All the vendors carry them, Rock Auto does too for the best price - Felpro $19.00 ea.
If you want to run Felpro head gaskets and are worried about the trapezoidal water holes, then by all means do. They will surely work - and the price is a whole lot cheaper than others (like Best)

But, just to make us all think a bit (on the need for gaskets to match the center water jackets) . . . lets talk about three different block water jacket configurations (39 - 48):

1) 39-42 Ford 221: It has three trapezoidal water jackets (the one you show).
2) A 99A or 239 style Merc block has TWO trapezoidal water jackets - with a circular one in the middle. This is the block referred to as the 'Keystone' Merc block that is part of Flathead rumors and lore . . .
3) A 59x series block has one trapezoidal water jacket - up at the top.

Best gasket makes ONE style of gaskets for ALL of the above - whether copper or composite. Given that I've had nothing but good experiences with their gaskets (in all three of the above water jacket configurations) and I've heard nothing but positive reviews of their gaskets, one would think there is no need to have a different version for the different water jacket styles in the middle of the block.

I use the GraphTite gaskets on just about all of my builds - except high-end blown motors (they're a whole different beast).

See below:

1) 99A - 239 Merc - WWII Production:

DeckComplete copy.jpg

2) 59x Deck Surface:

BlockDesk-Porting-80.jpg

3) Best Gaskets: Copper:

BG-Copper.jpg

4) Best Gaskets: GraphTite:

BG-GraphTite.jpg

5) And here is a Cometic MLS Gaskets (which I'm running on the 42 Merc block shown above):

Cometic.jpg
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:51 PM   #17
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Here's something to thinking about with those gaskets with the small round holes. A wise and respected engine builder told me this. Why would you want to restrict the water from leaving the block?

The water surrounding the cylinders is acting like a heat sink and trying to carry heat away from these areas. If you keep it in there or restrict it's flow, the water is only getting hotter.

This engine builder opens those holes to match the holes in the block to allow the water to get out of the block, into the heads, and up into the radiator to be cooled.

Just something to think about.

** To answer the original question, get the proper gaskets.
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Hey Tim: Something to think about is not only flow, but where does the flow actually go to pull the heat out of the block.

In the 49-53 block design they deliberately put the LARGER water jacket holes at the rear of the block. From what I gather and in thinking about it, this was do give the water a better chance of flowing to the BACK of the block to pull some of the extra heat out of the rear cylinders (which tend to run hot).

So - one could also ponder how much water do we want to let out of the middle of the water jackets - versus maybe a better distribution to the rear of the block (in the 39-48 blocks). Is letting too much of it out "early" a good thing or not? (Don't know).

Obviously I have not done any scientific testing (with various deck/gasket combinations), but I do believe it is a good thing to try to get the cooler water from the front of the engine to the rear. In some big HP race engines, they put water manifolds down at the base of the block (above the pan rails) to deliberately direct water flow to the back of the block. Another method was to put a sort of "water tube" inside the block that was fed up by the water pump - to have a special flow to the rear of the block.

So - letting too much of the cool water out the middle of the block MAY actually NOT be a good thing (again, never tested by me and probably nobody else alive that I know - other than maybe Pete!). I am more inclined to expand the water holes at the rear of a 39-48 block - to try to get more water flow from the back of the block . . .
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Another thing we are not putting in the equation, is the water hole configuration on the head. Those huge centerline trapezoidal holes in the block do not determine much, as the head and gasket holes open or shut the gates anyway. The worst consequence of those 3 large centerline trapezoidal holes is the corosion damage they do to the heads as they meter the flow with smaller holes.

I agree with B&S on the issue I was presenting with my early concern about using the round hole gaskets and water leaks. Using what you find when inspecting gaskets for how they match the block, you will find, the gasket designs do not reflect any need for water holes copper rings, need for a crush upon installation. Frequently we find copper ringed holes without crush as a design rule.

As to water flow and how much heat it carries, that is an age old argument we need not try to settle here.
The answer to my original question then is basically, - they both would be fine.

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Old 05-26-2020, 01:21 AM   #20
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

As long as it seals, i'd guess the head/block corrosion in our life time would be minimal at best. In my thinking. From the original pictures, the crush rings don't completely cover the open areas, I'd be concerned more about that. my .02$


Having a head gasket with some water constriction might be an issue. But we run temps also to constrict water flow. Most gasket constrictions are made to force water to the back of the block, the biggest issue to the rear of the block is flow. Water is like electricity, easiest path without resistance. Maybe a issue but maybe not that big of deal either.


A good seal is important. Gaskets are cheaper then.

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Old 05-26-2020, 12:02 PM   #21
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Russ, it MIGHT be fine, but then again it MIGHT not and it will always be on your mind, especially when you are stuck in traffic and the temperature is climbing. If something does go wrong you will be asking yourself why you didn't do it right in the first place. Do it once right and get the proper gaskets. Think about all the work it will be to replace the wrong gaskets.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:17 PM   #22
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Head gaskets kinda evolve during time...manufacturers change the sizes of holes to maintain a better distribution of the coolant in the heads as they learn from issues.
I usually go for the latest version that match the head...and starting to modify the holes with no reason is like saying the gasket manufacturers engineers have no clue
And as long as the fire ring in the combustion chamber match up i don´t worry about the others in the coolant.
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:09 PM   #23
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Quote:
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Here's something to thinking about with those gaskets with the small round holes. A wise and respected engine builder told me this. Why would you want to restrict the water from leaving the block?
No idea who the builder is, but couldn't disagree more. Why do you think they make the holes the size they do? Read flatheadmurre post, they are designed that way for a reason! If you look at the total area of all the water passages in the head you can see the volume of fluid they can handle. Making larger holes is just like short circuiting wiring. Yes, the original center holes were larger (the large holes are there mainly to help clean out of casting core, not for cooling), but later designs in head gaskets attempted to correct the overheating issues of the rear cylinders. Take a look at the head, what good is a larger gasket to match the block going to do? Also, see the corrosion where the older style gasket was used? By reducing the size of these center holes even further in later models, it is forcing more of the flow to the rear cylinders. You don't want the majority of the flow to go from the pumps straight through the center of the block and back to the radiator.
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:18 PM   #24
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No idea who the builder is, but couldn't disagree more. Why do you think they make the holes the size they do? Read flatheadmurre post, they are designed that way for a reason! If you look at the total area of all the water passages in the head you can see the volume of fluid they can handle. Making larger holes is just like short circuiting wiring. Yes, the original center holes were larger, but later designs in head gaskets attempted to correct the overheating issues of the rear cylinders. Take a look at the head, what good is a larger gasket to match the block going to do? Also, see the corrosion where the older style gasket was used? But reducing the size of these center holes even further, it is forcing more of the flow to the outside cylinders. You don't want the majority of the flow to go from the pumps straight through the center of the block and back to the radiator.
Yep. I see it, but also look hole small the hole is in the head gasket on the bottom center. Something to think about.

I would also not assume that the gasket companies are looking to constantly improve their stuff. There could be many reasons why they changed it
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Old 05-26-2020, 07:17 PM   #25
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It's hard to know which is right??
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Old 05-26-2020, 07:43 PM   #26
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Wish I had a dyno, all the spare time in the world and a couple "extra" blocks . . . not going to happen! LOL
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

I seem to recall a service bulletin which describes how to enlarge those centre holes in particular heads.I think it pertains to the heads like pictured in post #23.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:59 PM   #28
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Interesting, any idea which service bulletin?
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Old 05-27-2020, 10:43 AM   #29
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If I recall correctly, it states to enlarge the 5/8" center hole in the head to 3/4".

B&S, that 99A in post 16 is mighty pretty, a true work of art! Those Cometic gaskets are amazing, and expensive, but with a choice of thicknesses could be very handy.

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Old 05-27-2020, 08:52 PM   #30
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If I recall correctly, it states to enlarge the 5/8" center hole in the head to 3/4".

B&S, that 99A in post 16 is mighty pretty, a true work of art! Those Cometic gaskets are amazing, and expensive, but with a choice of thicknesses could be very handy.
Thanks Russ - you might say there are "a few hours" of work in that engine block - starting with a NOS engine from WWII.

I decided to use the Cometic gaskets as an expensive test - wanted to see how well they did as they are probably a viable option for a decent amount of boost, such that we don't have to do CNC O-Rings in the block and heads (which really help in high levels of boost, but are not easy to implement).

I built this engine as kind of my 'experimental' platform to try a few things out (like the really long duration roller cam, coatings on pistons, valves, bearings, nitriding a Merc crank, etc).
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:14 PM   #31
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It's hard to know which is right??

Yep, if it seals run it. Boy we get so worried about details. absolutely restricting water flow with a gasket, forces water to other areas. But is that enough? The flow design always leaves the rear of the block unattended. Run your flatty up to temp or more than run a IR gun over the block. It'll always be hotter at the rear of the block. Just look at how water flows and why the back of the block needs more rodding out of debris. Its a river bank collecting debris.


or not... my opinion.

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Old 05-27-2020, 09:31 PM   #32
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Yep, if it seals run it. Boy we get so worried about details. absolutely restricting water flow with a gasket, forces water to other areas. But is that enough? The flow design always leaves the rear of the block unattended. Run your flatty up to temp or more than run a IR gun over the block. It'll always be hotter at the rear of the block. Just look at how water flows and why the back of the block needs more rodding out of debris. Its a river bank collecting debris.


or not... my opinion.
Good look at it. I agree about the back of the block collecting a ton of crud. Need to make sure you pay extra attention to that area when cleaning out.
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:08 PM   #33
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Regarding the use of two different gaskets on the same engine... The gasket needs something SOLID on both sides, or it will not seal. Running circles and trapezoids together will NOT seal. Plus, you're killing compression even if it would.

I'm no flathead expert. On OHV engines, the water pump drives the water through the block from front to rear... then there is an opening at the rear of the block for the water to flow up into the cylinder head, where it then flows forward and out the front of the head into the intake. From there it goes out the water neck into the top of the radiator. The only place water travels between the block and head (minus tiny steam holes), is at the rear of the engine.

ALWAYS use the correct gaskets... installed in the correct orientation. Compared to the hassle of something not working right, and all the work to change them... It's a no-brainer.

Good Luck!
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:03 AM   #34
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

FYI, I have decided to use the proper gaskets on my build, Felpro 7548B. Decided to remove any doubt, and the price was too good to pass up. Mike, don't get your "killing compression" comment? ?
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:25 AM   #35
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FYI, I have decided to use the proper gaskets on my build, Felpro 7548B. Decided to remove any doubt, and the price was too good to pass up. Mike, don't get your "killing compression" comment? ?
I read it he was thinking if someone used two gaskets stacked on top of one another. I could be mistaken.
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Old 05-29-2020, 03:43 PM   #36
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I read it he was thinking if someone used two gaskets stacked on top of one another. I could be mistaken.
Yes. The reduction in compression ratio would be drastic. Using two gaskets on a OHV sized combustion chamber (simple circle) adds a lot of space. Doing it on a flathead sized combustion chamber adds even more.

Glad you've made the right decision! When it comes to engines, the mantra is generally "Buy once, cry once".

Good Luck!
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Old 05-29-2020, 04:50 PM   #37
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Yes. The reduction in compression ratio would be drastic. Using two gaskets on a OHV sized combustion chamber (simple circle) adds a lot of space. Doing it on a flathead sized combustion chamber adds even more.

Glad you've made the right decision! When it comes to engines, the mantra is generally "Buy once, cry once".

Good Luck!
Believe me, after going through an engine rebuild with one of the best in the game, I agree.
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Old 05-30-2020, 07:32 AM   #38
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Most of my engines are bored oversize, so I have to use "Big bore" gaskets. And yes they have water hols designed to help cooling
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:39 AM   #39
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FYI, I have decided to use the proper gaskets on my build, Felpro 7548B. Decided to remove any doubt, and the price was too good to pass up. Mike, don't get your "killing compression" comment? ?
It will surely run just fine - and the price was right as well.
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Old 05-30-2020, 09:40 AM   #40
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

Barney Navarro mentioned that he set the early (post-pump in head & pre-8BA) blocks up with a catch tray behind the water pump that had a tube attached that would run to the back of the block. The set up wouldn't prevent coolant from flowing at the front of the block but would force some to the back. His idea was to get a cooler supply of coolant to the back. His improvement wasn't striking but was a noticeable improvement in cooling.

In a normal configuration with center exit heads, the coolant that did get to the back of the block had already picked up a lot of heat so even though it was force back there by the head gasket flow, the coolant was still pretty hot back there. He didn't have to do anything with the 8BA since the coolant would flow right back there then flow all the way back forward through the heads. Having the coolant exit at the front on the 8BA made a difference so that's why Ford set it up that way. It worked very well compared to the earlier designs.
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Old 01-04-2021, 07:45 PM   #41
saltracer
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: Lafayette, La.
Posts: 100
Default Re: Would You Use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
Thanks Russ - you might say there are "a few hours" of work in that engine block - starting with a NOS engine from WWII.

I decided to use the Cometic gaskets as an expensive test - wanted to see how well they did as they are probably a viable option for a decent amount of boost, such that we don't have to do CNC O-Rings in the block and heads (which really help in high levels of boost, but are not easy to implement).

I built this engine as kind of my 'experimental' platform to try a few things out (like the really long duration roller cam, coatings on pistons, valves, bearings, nitriding a Merc crank, etc).



are you happy with the results so far? Any boost applied?
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Old 01-05-2021, 06:40 AM   #42
phil pavicich
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Default Re: Would You Use it?

$50 is only a carton of beer down here
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