New Engine QA and Paul Shinn's Concerns

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by JRLampl

New Engine QA and Paul Shinn's Concerns

As we work through this process with Paul Shinn and his videos/block measurements etc., I wanted to share details on the block manufacturing and verification process.

Factory Verification of the "New Engine" Cylinder Block

The factory in China we are using to manufacture the new Model A cylinder block has a dedicated inspection room to verify dimensions and ensure that the CNC machining programs produce parts within drawing tolerances.

The inspection room has its own HVAC system to maintain 72 degrees F and slightly higher air pressure than the rest of the factory. The higher air pressure keeps dust out when someone opens a door.

The inspection room has a computer-controlled Coordinate Measuring Machine (CMM), a large granite surface plate, and other precision tools used for inspection.

A cylinder block needing verification is placed in the inspection room and allowed to stabilize for 12 hours before any measurements are taken.

After stabilization, the cylinder block is placed on the surface plate, not restrained in any way, and measurements are taken using the CMM to verify compliance with the drawing dimensions.

For every "production run", the first cylinder block is inspected as described above.

Every cylinder block during a production run does not receive a full inspection with the CMM in the temperature-controlled room, but cylinder blocks are regularly pulled from the production line and measured as a part of the QA process.

Those cylinder blocks that don't receive a full CMM inspection still have their critical dimensions verified during the final inspection before receiving a serial number.

The attached picture was taken in the inspection room of the factory making the new cylinder blocks.




Paul Shinn's 2 New Engine Kits

A recap of the issue: Paul Shinn and his engine builder Willie stated they found dimensional problems with the 2 "New Engine Kits" in their possession and the first YouTube video published by Paul said that it will take $4800 to correct the problems if parts were taken from both "New Engine Kits" to make one running engine.

In the first video, Paul and Willie said the crankshaft and camshaft are not parallel by 0.007 inches, the crankshaft has a 0.005-inch runout, and the main bearing caps cannot be shifted sideways because they have dowel pins to locate them.

As many who monitor this forum know, Paul's video created a lot of backlash from those familiar with the "New Engine Kit", and it generated a lot of comments questioning his approach from those familiar with proper measurement techniques. Due to this backlash, Paul removed that video from his YouTube channel.

Paul created a second video – here is the link: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU_G1AAkefQ ). In this video there was no further information regarding measurements, data, technique, etc. He stated he was committed to working with us (the manufacturer of the Burtz Block) by taking new measurements of the parts he believes are out of spec and posting his findings along with the original Ford engine drawing specifications. We agree with this approach; we asked that he identify each block and take specific measurements. To date, are still waiting to see his findings or response on the forums.

In response to Paul’s comments on the forum that he wanted to be rid of his block kits, I did offer a full refund to him via email sent on August 30th and asked for pick up information for the block kits. He replied that he wanted to work with us to make this outcome a “win-win” for the Model A community. We are still waiting for information regarding his measurement data and information related to the measurement technique.

It cannot be overstated we are very concerned about QA and if there is a problem, we need to know about it as soon as possible. Paul and Willie, please reply to this thread and post your measured dimensions, or let everyone know what your plans are for the 2 "New Engine Kits" in your possession.

Thank you for your update! Moving this #1 post so it easier

[Billybob57]

https://youtu.be/gU_G1AAkefQ

[Phil Brown]

Originally Posted by Richard in Anaheim CA

I believe the offer of full money back refund in return of the two blocks is the gold standard. Why won't he take the offer? Has he done machine work on the blocks?
Is he only out to discredit Terry?

Paul Shinn wants to get rid of those two blocks. He has options. Return the blocks.Take the money. Build a made by Ford original. Buy a Donovan block Take his chances with the other guy who claims on Ford Barn to be producing a similar product.

Posting on a public forum was neither honest or ethical. He should have gone directly to the manufacturer.

Richard
Anaheim CA

My thoughts from day one, wonder if theres more to this story than we know

Originally Posted by LeonardS

He NEVER called Paul a drunk. You should read that post again.

Yea, asking if that box might have had anything to do with the measurements IS a far cry from calling someone a drunk

[Billybob57]

Seriously? Insinuating someone has a drinking problem is simply wrong!

[jeepguy1948]

I have been seriously interested in The Burtz block since it came out, butt.... This donnybrook only reinforces what I planned all along. I will not be buying one until somebody with a good reputation is offering them as a ready to go “Crate Engine” this would save me having to deal with any of these issues, the machine shop, engine builder, engine assembler would have to deal with any QC issues and I’m sure that if there were issues the factory would be eager to eliminate them for future blocks. Just my $0.02

[denis4x4]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

For jeepguy1948, I think that Steve Becker at Bert’s Model A has sold several turn key Burtz engines. You can call him at 1-800-321-1930

[wwirz]

I think that Terry Burtz will sort this matter out. Suggest letting the dust settle and await his findings.
I have not heard of anyone with problems with the BURTZ engines.
If or when I need a new engine, I plan on using the BURTZ. A 5 main, counterweighted engine. takes care of a few problems with the HENRY design.
However, I must say the HENRY design suits me just fine. DOn't drive it like a race car and change the oil every 500 miles.

[JRLampl]

Background and Update on this thread, “Where is Paul Shinn?”

On August 27, Paul Shinn released a Youtube video showing his engine builder, Willie Baechler, measuring the machined surfaces of the two new engine kits that he purchased from us in early 2022. Many of the measurements were reported to be severely out of tolerance, and the conclusion was that extensive machining at a substantial cost would be necessary to produce one good engine. There were many forum posts from both engine builders and owners that disagreed with the way Willie measured the parts and the negative posts caused Paul to take down his video shortly after it was posted.

It was imperative that we determine if there was a problem or not because it would be an indication that the entire production of engine kits could have a problem resulting in a costly recall. We have not seen any such problems to date. Our parts are manufactured on automated machines, and if one part has a problem, it is likely that all parts in the production run will have the same problem.

In October, we posted "Where is Paul Shinn" on the forums. He responded and agreed to get his 2 engine kits (#111 and #123) evaluated by a 3rd party engine builder/machinist. At Paul’s request, we provided 4 builder recommendations and suggested he interview and pick one of the 4. Hanford Auto Supply in Hanford, CA was selected by Paul after his conversations with the owner (see https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100057543524018).

Paul brought the two engine kits to Hanford Auto Supply and he posted on Nov 4th: “Spent almost all day in Hanford with Tim yesterday, shot hours and hours of video of our work. Lots of information was gathered and learned, and I'm excited to share it soon! Video will be in post production for a week or two.”

The crankshafts and cylinder blocks were each measured with regard to critical specs and the report from Hanford Auto Supply follows:

We checked the main bore diameters, and crankshaft journal diameters, and runout. The main bore diameters all measured to within 0.001” of specification (2.125”) and the crankshafts were all within correct journal specification with 1 having a measured runout of less than 0.002” and the other at around 0.001”. The bore diameter measurements are as follows:

Block# 111
Main: #1: 2.1245 #2: 2.1250 #3: 2.1247 #4: 2.1250 #5: 2.1255

Block# 123
Main: #1: 2.1240 #2: 2.1250 #3: 2.1240 #4: 2.1250 #5: 2.1252

The crankshafts were installed, the main caps torqued, and we used Plastiguage to check clearances:

Block# 111
Main: #1: 0.0015” #2: 0.0020” #3: 0.0015” #4: 0.0020” #5: 0.0015”


Block# 123
Main: #1: 0.0015” #2: 0.0020” #3: 0.0015” #4: 0.0020” #5: 0.0015”

Both crankshafts rotated freely; #123 has a spot where rotation is slightly snug. Both blocks will be built as they are; we feel all the machining and runout are within acceptable tolerances and the blocks can be built as they are - out of the box.

A video showing how the crankshafts rotate in cylinder blocks #111 and #123 can be seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDP6ExdsRrc


The measurement data from Hanford Auto Supply has shown the blocks to be within spec for build. We had hoped and expected that Paul would post his video of the detailed measurements taken at Hanford Auto Supply, however, Paul has advised us that he does not intend to publish the video report.

[Dan McEachern]

Can anyone open the link above?

http://bit.ly/3OLpLlz

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by Dan McEachern

Can anyone open the link above?

http://bit.ly/3OLpLlz

I can not open it.

It takes me to a Login page.

[4bangerbob]

Originally Posted by Dan McEachern

Can anyone open the link above?

http://bit.ly/3OLpLlz

It takes me to a microsoft log in page, no video. but it maybe this video I seen on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHU72ono93w

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

4bangerbob,

Thanks for the link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDP6ExdsRrc) that was filmed at Hanford Auto Parts and shows how the crankshafts rotate in the cylinder blocks of the 2 "New Engine Kits" that Paul Shinn claimed to be defective.

[CWPASADENA]

John,

It is good to have some information that we can rely on about the 2 engine kits Paul Shinn purchased.
To date, I have completed 9 Burtz engines. The findings in the video are very consistent with what I have experienced with the engines I have put together.

Chris W.

[BrianH]

That you tube link cuts to a page that says video not available.

[Aretino]

China is our enemy

[alexiskai]

The video was uploaded for use on another forum and was not authorized for wide distribution. It's about a minute long and just shows what John says above: "Both crankshafts rotated freely; #123 has a spot where rotation is slightly snug." That's all.

[wrpercival]

Sorry about the problem with the link provided for the video that summarizes the results of the remeasured tolerances on the blocks owned by Paul Shinn.

The following link works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDP6ExdsRrc

[ampico-kid]

This is definitely good news. I'm especially happy since I recently purchased the block, head, cam, and flywheel which were just delivered to the builder who is anxious to start work on it.

This debacle has surely cost the Burtz Block people sales and money over the past several months, and I for one am happy that it's finally been cleared up. The question I have is how did Paul Shinn's builder Willie Baechler come up with the measurements that started all of this in the first place?

[ampico-kid]

Originally Posted by wrpercival

Sorry about the problem with the link provided for the video that summarizes the results of the remeasured tolerances on the blocks owned by Paul Shinn.

The following link works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDP6ExdsRrc

Works good....thanks!!!

[Fhane]

I am confused.

One of the large venders gets a bad reputation, mostly because of problems they created them selves. Other venders get burned, sometimes due to no fault of their own, but due to uninformed end users.

If we lose any of the big venders we may lose more than we think.

Some of us say we will never buy or use a product from a certain vender. That certain vender may manufacture a part that you buy from another vender but now you are happy because you like and trust the vender you purchased from. If the “bad” vender goes under, it is very possible no one else if going to manufacture the particular parts.

We have beat the “bad” vender to death on this and other forums.

Now the Burtz engine comes into production after years of design, testing and money spent. It has been road tested, assembled by experts and novices alike. I have heard nothing but praise for the engine except for the crank run out by the reporter.

Now the reporter comes along, observes run out on the crank and claims it is unacceptable. The builder and the reporter agree on a third party to investigate. Third party says engine is in spec. Reporter will not respond. Some of the forum contributors want the subject dropped.

Will we ever find out from the reporter what really happened?

Will we miss the Burtz engine if the builder gets disgusted and quits building the engines?

We have beat almost every vender half to death over simple things like replacement grease fittings that would not fit, poorly machined heads and on and on.

Don’t you guys want to get to the bottom of this? I do.

If the reporter can’t respond maybe he is not a reporter but rather a pot stirrer.