The Ford Barn

Smokedtires · 10-30-2023, 02:41 PM

Hello gang, over the summer I noticed melted pieces of alloy in the oil pan during an oil change. I dropped the pan cleaned it out while changing out the failing fiber timing gear to an aluminum gear.

Fast forward and I removed the engine. Yesterday I pulled main caps and rod bearing caps. The babbitt looked good on all surfaces and the crank had no marks in the journals.

Looking at the cylinder walls, there are no marks there either. Now I don't know if it could be something in the valve train? I'm not sure where else to look for where these melted pieces could have come from.

Any ideas where I should look next? Thanks

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 10-30-2023, 02:46 PM

Are you certain it is not from the Main Bearing thrust surface on the block?

Smokedtires · 10-30-2023, 02:48 PM

Oh, that is a great point. I removed the crank but didn't think to look there, will check it out. Thanks!

mass A man · 10-30-2023, 06:54 PM

"What Brent said", other than that, I doubt it's a cam bearing, could it be from an earlier engine re-build whereas these pieces could have been overlooked and caught in a "sludgy" corner that someone overlooked? ( I know that is really "reaching")

The Master Cylinder · 10-30-2023, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mass A man

I doubt it's a cam bearing,

Cam bearing?

Smokedtires · 10-31-2023, 06:21 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mass A man

"What Brent said", other than that, I doubt it's a cam bearing, could it be from an earlier engine re-build whereas these pieces could have been overlooked and caught in a "sludgy" corner that someone overlooked? ( I know that is really "reaching")

I can only hope it was debris stuck somewhere previously. Fingers crossed, so far everything looks good.

Will N · 10-31-2023, 10:32 AM

You mentioned it was melted alloy. It could have been some molten babbit that overflowed the mold when the bearings were last poured. The rebuilder could have missed it and it fell into the bottom of the pan below the windage tray when the engine was assembled and there it stayed until it came out during that oil change.

Jim Brierley · 10-31-2023, 11:44 AM

There is no alloy in the valve train, and there are no cam bearings, it has to be babbitt.

Smokedtires · 10-31-2023, 05:19 PM

Okay, thanks all. Once I pull the crank again I'll confirm if it's the thrust bearing or not. If not, I will buy new gaskets and button it back up. The car is an older restoration and everything looks good inside. Can still see the honing marks inside the cylinders. So far I'm very grateful to see the condition if the babbitt. And there was no knocking heard when running. Hopefully this was just an exercise of learning more about my A than originally planned.

noboD · 10-31-2023, 06:20 PM

Babbit melts over 400 degrees if it indeed is melted babbit..

Randall · 11-01-2023, 12:10 PM

Better check it ! before its to late like this one.https://youtu.be/mDozmUS1GZY?si=dtKFS3TlCjfJNxL2

Smokedtires · 11-01-2023, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randall

Better check it ! before its to late like this one.https://youtu.be/mDozmUS1GZY?si=dtKFS3TlCjfJNxL2

YIKES, that scenerio is what prompted me to look into this before it became a larger problem.

Here is what I'm seeing. I pulled the crank again and the thrust bearing I believe looks good. I will order all new gaskets and a clutch alignment tool. Maybe replace the valve springs while I'm at it.

I included some of the melted alloy I found that started this whole adventure. noboD, any ideas what else that could be from?

Randall · 11-01-2023, 09:00 PM

I'm thinking when they poured the mains some overflowed and stuck to the block and maybe and thru time showed up in pan

nkaminar · 11-02-2023, 06:11 AM

I will second what Randall said.

GeneBob · 11-02-2023, 09:54 AM

Those globs look like drops from a pour, like melted solder. They have no heat color or smearing due to shear from a bearing or something like that. I think Will N, Randall and nkminar are correct. My 2 cents.
When you reassemble, take a look in the oil pump screen to make sure no smaller pieces are trying to get into your pump. It would be a shame to have it apart this far and miss a piece of debris that could eat your engine later.

Smokedtires · 11-02-2023, 02:30 PM

The oilpump is a great recommendation Genebob. I had disassembled it after the fiber timing gear failed but I like the idea of checking one more time before placing the oil pan back in place. I also never thought about the lack of discoloration.

Thanks all, I feel much better moving forward.

Smokedtires · 11-02-2023, 02:33 PM

Another thought just came to me is they probably wouldn't have a flat side if they fell down into the oil filled pan.

Benson · 11-03-2023, 10:19 AM

...

katy · 11-03-2023, 11:17 AM

have the material XRF examined to see what it is.

cristeven · 11-11-2023, 03:10 PM

Because of the dipper tray being so challenging to remove, it’s possible to have debris in the pan going unnoticed for a very long time. You may also check the condition of the rear labyrinth seal also…. Oops I see the photos of the seal now and that’s obviously in good shape. I expect the same as the others said this is just drops from pouring mains.

10-30-2023, 02:41 PM	#1
Smokedtires Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: Baldwinsville NY Posts: 174	At a lost here Hello gang, over the summer I noticed melted pieces of alloy in the oil pan during an oil change. I dropped the pan cleaned it out while changing out the failing fiber timing gear to an aluminum gear. Fast forward and I removed the engine. Yesterday I pulled main caps and rod bearing caps. The babbitt looked good on all surfaces and the crank had no marks in the journals. Looking at the cylinder walls, there are no marks there either. Now I don't know if it could be something in the valve train? I'm not sure where else to look for where these melted pieces could have come from. Any ideas where I should look next? Thanks

10-30-2023, 02:46 PM	#2
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,520	Re: At a lost here Are you certain it is not from the Main Bearing thrust surface on the block? __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

10-30-2023, 02:48 PM	#3
Smokedtires Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: Baldwinsville NY Posts: 174	Re: At a lost here Oh, that is a great point. I removed the crank but didn't think to look there, will check it out. Thanks!

10-30-2023, 06:54 PM	#4
mass A man Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Danvers, Ma. Posts: 712	Re: At a lost here "What Brent said", other than that, I doubt it's a cam bearing, could it be from an earlier engine re-build whereas these pieces could have been overlooked and caught in a "sludgy" corner that someone overlooked? ( I know that is really "reaching")

10-31-2023, 10:32 AM	#7
Will N Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,100	Re: At a lost here You mentioned it was melted alloy. It could have been some molten babbit that overflowed the mold when the bearings were last poured. The rebuilder could have missed it and it fell into the bottom of the pan below the windage tray when the engine was assembled and there it stayed until it came out during that oil change.

10-31-2023, 11:44 AM	#8
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,089	Re: At a lost here There is no alloy in the valve train, and there are no cam bearings, it has to be babbitt.

10-31-2023, 05:19 PM	#9
Smokedtires Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: Baldwinsville NY Posts: 174	Re: At a lost here Okay, thanks all. Once I pull the crank again I'll confirm if it's the thrust bearing or not. If not, I will buy new gaskets and button it back up. The car is an older restoration and everything looks good inside. Can still see the honing marks inside the cylinders. So far I'm very grateful to see the condition if the babbitt. And there was no knocking heard when running. Hopefully this was just an exercise of learning more about my A than originally planned.

10-31-2023, 06:20 PM	#10
noboD Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 319	Re: At a lost here Babbit melts over 400 degrees if it indeed is melted babbit..

11-01-2023, 12:10 PM	#11
Randall Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Lambsburg Va Posts: 296	Re: At a lost here Better check it ! before its to late like this one.https://youtu.be/mDozmUS1GZY?si=dtKFS3TlCjfJNxL2

11-01-2023, 09:00 PM	#13
Randall Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Lambsburg Va Posts: 296	Re: At a lost here I'm thinking when they poured the mains some overflowed and stuck to the block and maybe and thru time showed up in pan

11-02-2023, 06:11 AM	#14
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: At a lost here I will second what Randall said. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

11-02-2023, 09:54 AM	#15
GeneBob Senior Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Denver Area Posts: 433	Re: At a lost here Those globs look like drops from a pour, like melted solder. They have no heat color or smearing due to shear from a bearing or something like that. I think Will N, Randall and nkminar are correct. My 2 cents. When you reassemble, take a look in the oil pump screen to make sure no smaller pieces are trying to get into your pump. It would be a shame to have it apart this far and miss a piece of debris that could eat your engine later.

11-02-2023, 02:30 PM	#16
Smokedtires Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: Baldwinsville NY Posts: 174	Re: At a lost here The oilpump is a great recommendation Genebob. I had disassembled it after the fiber timing gear failed but I like the idea of checking one more time before placing the oil pan back in place. I also never thought about the lack of discoloration. Thanks all, I feel much better moving forward.

11-02-2023, 02:33 PM	#17
Smokedtires Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: Baldwinsville NY Posts: 174	Re: At a lost here Another thought just came to me is they probably wouldn't have a flat side if they fell down into the oil filled pan.

11-03-2023, 10:19 AM	#18
Benson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,599	Re: At a lost here ...

11-03-2023, 11:17 AM	#19
katy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Red Deer, Alberta Posts: 5,046	Re: At a lost here have the material XRF examined to see what it is. __________________ If you don't hear a rumor by 10 AM, start one!. Got my education out behind the barn!

11-11-2023, 03:10 PM	#20
cristeven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2023 Location: Houston Area Posts: 16	Re: At a lost here Because of the dipper tray being so challenging to remove, it’s possible to have debris in the pan going unnoticed for a very long time. You may also check the condition of the rear labyrinth seal also…. Oops I see the photos of the seal now and that’s obviously in good shape. I expect the same as the others said this is just drops from pouring mains.