Distinguishing a '39 Deluxe from a '39 Standard

[lio45]

... and the answer is not going to be as easy and you'd have thought :P

The front end is missing, and so is the powertrain.

The serial number (in the *18-4900000* range) does not provide an answer (it would, had it been a 54- then it's a Standard for sure).

The passenger side rear fender has a taillight opening ('39 style not '40, so matching the serial #), but the glovebox doesn't have a hole for a clock in it. All those elements could've been upgraded or replaced over the decades though.

I think a fire at the Ford archives in 1970 irreversibly destroyed production records so even if I have an exact serial number there's no way to ever tell, is that correct...?

There's a frame crossmember in the front that is different, right? As the radiator has to be at a slightly different height with the Standard/1938 grille vs the '39 Deluxe/'40 Standard style...?

Just wondering if there's any way to have a clear answer, or if this '39 shell is doomed to staying Schrodinger's Cat forever. (It could be restored with any '39/'40 front end, they all fit, correct? Or even '37/'38?)

Thanks in advance

[DavidG]

With respect, production records of vehicle by engine number for Fords of the period in question did not exist prior to the fire at the Henry Ford and likely never did on a consolidated world-wide basis. That information did exist for pre-WWII Lincolns and it survives at the Benson Ford Research Center. For Fords, the world-wide quantity of each body type by engine type was recorded monthly and that information also exists at the BFRC.

[swoopNZ]

Does the firewall have a recess for a battery on the RH side ?
If so it's a standard.

[lio45]

Thanks David, I knew that info was available for Lincolns but I thought the equivalent archives for Fords were gone. I'm used to modern vehicles and VIN decoders, this is pretty different! Serial number is the engine's and that's it! Back then they really thought of the vehicle as an engine more than as a body...

... which, amusingly, would make many of these Fords nowadays genuine Chevrolets! A SBC's casting number is a 8-digit number, right? :P

[lio45]

Originally Posted by swoopNZ

Does the firewall have a recess for a battery on the RH side ?
If so it's a standard.

Thanks! The firewall is part of the structure of the body, it's not a part that can be unbolted and removed...?

[lio45]

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i.e. when people buy these:
http://www.absolutesheetmetal.com/co...ford-car-parts

they grind off the old one and weld the new one in place...? just like floor pans?

[jimalabam]

With respect also David and lio45. I have copies of the Ford Archive production records for 1939; There are part of a compilation of production figures for 1913-1941. For 1939, here goes.
Convertible Sedan 3.561
Convertible Coupe 10,422
Standard 5-Window Coupe 38.197
Deluxe 5-Window Coupe 37,326
Standard Tudor Sedan 124,866
Deluxe Tudor Sedan 144,333
Standard Fordor Sedan 28,151
Deluxe Fordor Sedan 90.551

Hope this helps... BTW the records are stored at Benson...

[flatjack9]

The firewall is a part of the body and not easily changed. So it is most likely as Ford built it. And yes, the front crossmember is different as the radiator sits higher in the
Deluxe. The mounting area would be very close to the same height as the frame rail.

[V8COOPMAN]

'39 STANDARDS have provision on the upper firewall for two radiator stay rods. '39 DELUXES have no such provision. DD

[DavidG]

jimalabam,

I believe that's what my last sentence indicated, i.e. "....quantity of each body type by engine type was recorded....exists at the BFRC".

[lio45]

Great! Thanks for all the info

So, if it looks like this, it's a Standard:



And if it's a Deluxe, it's going to look like this:

[lio45]

... and if it looks like this...? :P

[lio45]

Originally Posted by DavidG

jimalabam,

I believe that's what my last sentence indicated, i.e. "....quantity of each body type by engine type was recorded....exists at the BFRC".

That's what I understood from your post. Production info (options, original color, etc.) is available for some Lincolns but not for the Fords.

So, let's say, vehicle # 18-4,915,624, well, no one can know anymore what it was until it's found. (And if only the frame is found, then even then some questions can't be answered. etc.)

Whereas nowadays, with only a VIN, without a vehicle attached to it, you can still know exactly what it is.

[klicker]

The side of the cowl (below the upper hinge) is where the big difference is between a standard and deluxe 39. The fenders are a different height, shape where attaching to the cowl.

[swoopNZ]

Lio45,
The lower of your 2 pictures is actually shows a 1940.
Different mounts to the chassis, and different outlets for the choke and throttle rods exit.
As well as the lower mounting holes for the wipers.
The biggest difference between a 39 std and 39 deluxe is actually in the cowl sides.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by lio45

... and if it looks like this...? :P

And one would assume that it is obvious that this is a highly modified body for a large OHV engine!

[lio45]

You guys are right, the side of the cowl is very totally different for a '38-style hood and fenders vs the Deluxe/'40 hood!

So this body shell, which combines the '39-'40 back and the '38 cowl side, was only made in a total of ~38,000 copies all in all? Interesting. Value for Standards and Deluxes seems to be in the same ballpark (I checked NADA antique values) but I think I do prefer the Deluxe front end.

I haven't bought this '39 yet, it's very tempting but given that that project is going to be a lot of work I'm kinda thinking I should make sure it's exactly what I want...

The other one I'm considering is a '41, I'm also not sure how much I like the styling of the front, compared to '42-'48. Would it be considered heresy to keep the '41 front end parts safely in storage and fit a '41 with another front end, if that's even doable?

Thanks again for all the info, this forum is really great a true treasure trove of Ford info.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by JSeery

And one would assume that it is obvious that this is a highly modified body for a large OHV engine!

Just to be clear, I was joking (hence the smiley :P)

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by lio45

You guys are right, the side of the cowl is very totally different for a '38-style hood and fenders vs the Deluxe/'40 hood!

So this body shell, which combines the '39-'40 back and the '38 cowl side, was only made in a total of ~38,000 copies all in all? Interesting. Value for Standards and Deluxes seems to be in the same ballpark (I checked NADA antique values) but I think I do prefer the Deluxe front end.

I haven't bought this '39 yet, it's very tempting but given that that project is going to be a lot of work I'm kinda thinking I should make sure it's exactly what I want...

The other one I'm considering is a '41, I'm also not sure how much I like the styling of the front, compared to '42-'48. Would it be considered heresy to keep the '41 front end parts safely in storage and fit a '41 with another front end, if that's even doable?

Thanks again for all the info, this forum is really great a true treasure trove of Ford info.

'41 Fords have an awful lot of one-year-only features, on body AND chassis running gear. One really has to LIKE a '41 to be happy with one. Sounds like you need to wait for that "just right" '39 Deluxe to come along. DD

[TJ]

The body shell of the '41 is the same as the '42-48. You should be able to change the front sheetmetal,