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Old 02-26-2024, 04:58 PM   #1
19Fordy
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Default Need cluster gear idntification

Both cluster gears below have a tooth count of 28-24-18-24 and a 16 tooth gear. Both are 6.59 in. long and have a 1.125 bore for the bearings and spacer.

I have Mr. Van Pelt's book but am confused as to what the correct part numbers are for each of these gears shown below. Tooth count on both clusters is 28-24-18-14 with 16 tooth gear. Each is 6.59 inches long. Both have 1.125 bore for the bearings. As you can see the gear on the left has the raised protrusions and the gear on the right is flat with 4 milled slots.

I have the feeling that both these gears are interchangeable if you use the correct thrust washers for each.

QUESTION: What is the correct part number for each of these clusters and in what vehicles are they used?
QUESTION: Are they interchangeable?
I am spending this week trying to learn about the innards of transmissions.
Thank for your help. Jim
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Last edited by 19Fordy; 02-26-2024 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 02-26-2024, 06:48 PM   #2
Tim Ayers
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

I have the feeling that both these gears are interchangeable if you use the correct thrust washers for each.


Jim,

As you noted, they use different types of thrust washers.

That said, measure the OD of all the gears. I recall Mac saying something about these clusters and how at first glance, they look the same but I think you'll find one of them has a larger diameter gear or gears.

I believe the slotted ones has a slightly larger OD which is big enough to cause binding if not used with a correctly matched set.
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Old 02-26-2024, 08:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19Fordy View Post
Both cluster gears below have a tooth count of 28-24-18-24 and a 16 tooth gear. Both are 6.59 in. long and have a 1.125 bore for the bearings and spacer.

I have Mr. Van Pelt's book but am confused as to what the correct part numbers are for each of these gears shown below. Tooth count on both clusters is 28-24-18-14 with 16 tooth gear. Each is 6.59 inches long. Both have 1.125 bore for the bearings. As you can see the gear on the left has the raised protrusions and the gear on the right is flat with 4 milled slots.

I have the feeling that both these gears are interchangeable if you use the correct thrust washers for each.

QUESTION: What is the correct part number for each of these clusters and in what vehicles are they used?
QUESTION: Are they interchangeable?
I am spending this week trying to learn about the innards of transmissions.
Thank for your help. Jim


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Old 02-26-2024, 08:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

4 slots is 68-7113. 2 prongs is 8M-7113. They are interchangeable but require different thrust washers. 68-7113 takes a one piece thrust washer in back called 68-7129-B. 8M-7113 takes a two piece rear thrust washer setup consisting of 8M-7128 and 8M-7129. Some slight advantage to the two piece design in terms of protecting the rear thrust surface of the case. But I would use whichever cluster is nicer.
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Old 02-26-2024, 10:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH for responding with such helpful knowledge. Just for the heck of it, I measured the OD's of each cluster and they are both the same. Photos below.

I am exploring the possibility of rebuilding a 1940 Ford transmission with the gears I have.
If it doesn't fair well, I'll probably be selling the gears. THANKS AGAIN.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6168.jpg (46.1 KB, 155 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6175.jpg (47.2 KB, 152 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6171.jpg (41.5 KB, 152 views)

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Old 02-26-2024, 10:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19Fordy View Post
THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH for responding with such helpful knowledge. Just for the heck of it, I measured the OD's of each cluster and they are both the same. Photos below.

I am exploring the possibility of rebuilding a 1940 Ford transmission with the gears I have.
If it doesn't fair well, I'll probably be selling the gears. THANKS AGAIN.




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Old 02-26-2024, 11:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

Does anybody happen to have a spare 25T LZ cluster gear? I could sure use one!
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Old 02-27-2024, 08:23 AM   #8
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

B and S:
Google : TWENTY FIVE TOOTH LINCOLN ZYPHER GEAR and your LZ gears appear.

WOW!

They are "solid gold" in price.
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Old 02-27-2024, 12:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

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Originally Posted by 19Fordy View Post
B and S:
Google : TWENTY FIVE TOOTH LINCOLN ZYPHER GEAR and your LZ gears appear.

WOW!

They are "solid gold" in price.
The 25-tooth and 26-tooth "Zephyr" gears always have been priced up there with the GOOD, or EXOTIC stuff. What's ironic is the fact that a lot of folks wouldn't be able to explain WHY these gear sets rate such legendary status, because they damned sure don't make your Ford any 'quicker' when leaving a stop light.

Coop


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Old 02-27-2024, 12:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

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The 25-tooth and 26-tooth "Zephyr" gears always have been priced up there with the GOOD, or EXOTIC stuff. What's ironic is the fact that a lot of folks wouldn't be able to explain WHY these gear sets rate such legendary status, because they damned sure don't make your Ford any 'quicker' when leaving a stop light.

Coop


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Coop
You are SO right on, as explained "You have to look at the context of how the Zephyr gears where "Used"......Majority of the time with an OD unit attached" so do the math of the Zephyr with the rear gear ration add to that the OD unit and its "reduction" and see what your end result is!!!! NOT what they are expecting!!!
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Old 02-27-2024, 12:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

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Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
The 25-tooth and 26-tooth "Zephyr" gears always have been priced up there with the GOOD, or EXOTIC stuff. What's ironic is the fact that a lot of folks wouldn't be able to explain WHY these gear sets rate such legendary status, because they damned sure don't make your Ford any 'quicker' when leaving a stop light.

Coop


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Coop, just curious, I never understood the Lincoln gears. Do they provide lower RPM's at highway speeds? If that is the case, why not a 29 tooth Ford cluster and a 3.54 or 3.25 rear end? Would that not achieve the same goal?
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Old 02-27-2024, 01:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

Where the LZ gears "shine" is if they are put into a lightweight hot rod that does not have to carry around the extra weight of a Lincoln. But alas the cost has gone into the stratosphere and the quality of the reproductions are "iffy" at the very best.
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Old 02-27-2024, 01:17 PM   #13
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

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Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda View Post
Coop, just curious, I never understood the Lincoln gears. Do they provide lower RPM's at highway speeds? If that is the case, why not a 29 tooth Ford cluster and a 3.54 or 3.25 rear end? Would that not achieve the same goal?
3rd gear is still 1 to 1 no matter what cluster set you use, so the rear end ratio is what it is at highway speed.

LZ's can be beneficial in light weight roadster, hot rod, etc. that have a built motor to allow you to wind out in 1st and 2nd longer. The theory being to "wind out" longer between shifts so the car can continue to accelerate for as long as possible and minimize RPM drops while racing or accelerating.

Guys tolerated some slipping of the clutch or tad less low end on the start with the LZ's ratios for the trade off of having extended range between shifts.

I have a perfect set of 26 LZ's that I will be putting together to try them out for myself. Seems to me like a good middle ground between 25's & the 28's I currently have.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 02-27-2024 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 02-27-2024, 01:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

One thing that should be emphasized here is that most Zephyrs and Continentals of that era were equipped with Columbia overdrives. Most cars came with 4.44 gears and overdrive. "COOP" mentioned this, but did not address the rear end ratio part. When you consider everything, the whole factory scheme makes sense : ultra-low gears to get the whole thing moving, closer ratios for more comfortable driving, and an overdrive to keep up with traffic.

When I was very young, the most common indication of the high performance aspect of a "Hot Rod" was how fast it would go in second gear. This was before 0-60 and quarter mile times came into general use. I think this goes a long way to explain the popularity of the L-Z gears.

Last edited by tubman; 02-27-2024 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 02-27-2024, 03:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

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Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda View Post
Coop, just curious, I never understood the Lincoln gears. Do they provide lower RPM's at highway speeds? If that is the case, why not a 29 tooth Ford cluster and a 3.54 or 3.25 rear end? Would that not achieve the same goal?

Seth ...... Tubman and Tim Ayers tell a pretty good overall story up above. Y'all have heard ME harp on gear ratios over and over again when it comes to the T5 transmissions that I keep preaching about. Gear ratios are important no matter what transmission you're using. Any of you's guys and girls that have ever owned any vehicles with a little performance potential (I've owned healthy Corvettes as well as '55-'56 Chevys way back when), and if you appreciate the feeling of accelerating through the gears of a close-ratio Muncie or TKO with that "just right" rear end gear, then you're more inclined to understand and appreciate some of what tailoring gear ratios is all about. Once you go through the gears in a car with a good combination, you won't forget it.

What you need to remember with the scenarios above by Tim and Denny is the fact that these Zephers (Zeps) were relatively heavy cars. To counteract that point, many if not most came with a 4.44 rear end. This high numerical number (4.44) makes it possible to get that massive, heavy car moving, while doing so using a very tall 1st gear ratio (25-tooth was 2.12 1st gear, while 26-tooth was 2.31 1st gear). In combination with that 4.44, it just worked so smoothly. And you must not forget that ALL Ford and Zep transmissions had a 1:1 3rd gear. That 4.44 could be a killer on the open road and this is where the O/D transmissions came in.

The two Zephyr ratios (25 & 26-tooth) essentially allowed you to accelerate (once the car initially began moving because of that 4.44) to a higher speed MPH-wise before running out of a comfortable RPM band and having to shift to a higher (ratio wise) 2nd gear.

One thing that I have always advocated for knowing where you stand with your transmission gearing when combined with your rear gear ratio is to multiply your 1st gear ratio times your rear end ratio. This gives you a baseline especially once you have a car with a combination that just feels good while running hard through the gears. Now that you're familiar with what that combination feels like, you can tailor future packages using that particular combination as a baseline.

Hoping this brief explanation helps you to grasp exactly what the Zep gears were all about. It seems that time has not served history well when it comes to Zep gears, because they are most definitely not the magical speed parts that they have been hyped-up (or priced-up) to be.

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Old 02-27-2024, 04:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

Coop,

I like to experiment with gearing. Most recently a 15 tooth main shaft, 29 tooth cluster in a '39 case with a 3.25 rear end. All that behind a fresh 221 in a '37 Tudor. I've also tried some 15/29 combinations with a 3.54 rear end.

Crusing is nice. I wind out first and second, usually shifting about 30-35 mph in second. I used a GPS to verify, got it up to 75 mph once. It will do 80 but I haven't tried.
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Old 02-27-2024, 05:18 PM   #17
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Coop,

I like to experiment with gearing. Most recently a 15 tooth main shaft, 29 tooth cluster in a '39 case with a 3.25 rear end. All that behind a fresh 221 in a '37 Tudor. I've also tried some 15/29 combinations with a 3.54 rear end.

Crusing is nice. I wind out first and second, usually shifting about 30-35 mph in second. I used a GPS to verify, got it up to 75 mph once. It will do 80 but I haven't tried.

Experimenting is where it's at. I remember noticing your 29-tooth cluster in conjunction with the 3.25 rear end about a month ago .... interesting combination. Interestingly enough, I just multiplied the 3.25 REAR along with the 3.11 1st gear that that 29-tooth cluster produces. Ends up with a 10.11 product which is right in the middle of usable equations, which start at about 8.14 and go on up to some ridiculous baseline numbers. Your 10.11 couldn't work out much better for a comfy daily driver. If course, you can't forget overall REAR tire diameter working together with all of this.

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Old 02-27-2024, 06:47 PM   #18
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Experimenting is where it's at. I remember noticing your 29-tooth cluster in conjunction with the 3.25 rear end about a month ago .... interesting combination. Interestingly enough, I just multiplied the 3.25 REAR along with the 3.11 1st gear that that 29-tooth cluster produces. Ends up with a 10.11 product which is right in the middle of usable equations, which start at about 8.14 and go on up to some ridiculous baseline numbers. Your 10.11 couldn't work out much better for a comfy daily driver. If course, you can't forget overall REAR tire diameter working together with all of this.

Coop


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Coop, thanks for the calculations. I'm running the stock 6.00 x16 tires. I greatly appreciate your information.
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Old 02-27-2024, 08:38 PM   #19
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Coop, thanks for the calculations. I'm running the stock 6.00 x16 tires. I greatly appreciate your information.

There is nothing earth-shattering about my calculations, but it is a benchmark by which you can capture some figurative value for comparative, future reference.

Coop


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Old 02-27-2024, 09:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: Need cluster gear idntification

Wow! V-8:

Thanks for sharing all that gearhead info.
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