Trouble removing tie rods from ball

[J.R. Aiello]

Hi all,

I'm breaking down my 1930 Sport Coupe for frame off restoration. WHile working on the front end, I'm trying to remove the tie rod and drag link. I was only able to get the drag link off of the frame end, but not the other 3.

After removing the large slotted screws and the spring out of the ends of the tie rod and the drag link, I cannot get them off the balls. The rods move easily back and forth, so I'm not in the narrow end, but it won't come up and off.

I'm afraid of lifting the rod and trying to pop it off of the ball as I don't want to warp the socket edges. Everything I've read and seen says it should come off easily, even the Les Andrews book.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

[Joe K]

The order of assembly from outside-in is
Cotter pin
Threaded slotted plug
spring
Inner bearing cup

It sounds like your inner bearing cup is somehow rusted or seized to the inner threaded portion of the socket.

A hammer action on both the arm (i.e. to move the inner bearing cup "outwards") and possibly on the exterior of the tie rod end (i.e. to break up rust by vibration) would be my operative plan.

If it is hardened grease that is holding the inner bearing up, you could try kerosene, PB-Blaster (basically the same thing) or even some heat from a torch to gently "thaw" the hardened grease.

The impact part is probably most valuable. There really isn't anything holding the inner bearing cup once the spring/threaded plug are removed.

Joe K

[J Franklin]

A bit more force will not harm anything in that assembly, it isn't tin.

[nkaminar]

When you hammer on the end of tie rod or drag link, use some hard wood to prevent the hammer from making dents. Or use a plastic dead blow hammer or a copper hammer.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Be sure to turn the spindles to their extremes when trying to remove the tie rod ends from the steering balls. And then force the spindle a little farther. This will compress the spring inside the tie rod end, thereby taking pressure off against the ball. I use a long pry bar between the tie rod and the axle in extreme cases.
The fact that you are experiencing difficulty getting the tie rod ends off is a good indication that the steering arm balls are still round and not egg-shaped like most of them are. That'll save you a ton of money and effort removing the steering arms and sending them in for exchange arms with new steering balls. Someone before you managed to get the tie rod ends over those balls, so you should be able to pop them back off!
Marshall

[J.R. Aiello]

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Thanks everyone. And so fast! I hate that I left out that I got the inner cup out too. The pictures show just the ball. The tie rod moves back and for and twists, and stays where I left it, so I don't think it's the pressure from the inside springs. There IS a lot of grease and in other places it's been more like tar, so I'll clean that out and try that extreme turning of the spindles. Thanks for all the advice. I'll report back what worked.

[Joe K]

The internal threads of the tie rod ends and drag link are quite fine - hence a warning about not "peining" over the open end which would prevent you from screwing the plug in.

But fear not - the part has been reproduced and even show up on Ebay for about $15 plus shipping. The tie rod does have a "right-left" side with matching right-handed/left handed threads so be sure to get the correct side if you damage one.

The plugs are the same both sides - just where the threaded rod screws in. (so you can adjust toe-in.)


Joe K

[nkaminar]

A little heat may help.

[JayJay]

J. R. - After removing all the guts from the tie rod ends and having the axle on jack stands to permit the wheels to flop around, I find that wiggling/rotating the tie rod, pulling up or whacking the tie rod end upwards, cussing and a beer helps. Old crappy grease definitely makes things difficult, don’t be afraid to use some persuasion or perhaps a bit of heat on the tie rod ends to soften the grease, as Joe K and nk suggest. Also, you may have to rock each wheel independently after removing the end plug to free up the springs and outer cups. Depending on whether its original or repo, the tie rod is either a thick wall tube or a solid bar, so it’s not horribly fragile.

[Joe K]

And, like the thread in the tie rod ends, the right/left thread on the tie rod itself. My famous "gotta do" is for the tie-rod to roll off the benchtop and invariably it will hit one end first on the concrete floor - peining the thread.

A little work with a triangular file made the tie rod end usable.

OBTW, a replacement tie rod CAN be bought best price from Snyders - but they're made from a solid rod - the original tie rods were "hollow" (with solid ends) and made that way for "lightness" for the active "sprung" parts of the front axle. (theory is everything below the support spring wants to be as light as possible to minimize reaction in going over a bump.)

You'll pay about double the Snyder's price for an original tie-rod on Ebay - flea markets are the best place to buy a straight replacement.

Joe K

[Marshall V. Daut]

Deleted - wrong thread.

[BlueSunoco]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

A little heat may help.

That was my thought... get the MAP torch out and put some heat on it....


I struggled with the exact same thing on the '37 Ford. I put a MAP torch on it heated it up and it actually FELL off!

[Marshall V. Daut]

Once the OP gets the tie rod ends off the steering balls, he's only halfway home. He still needs to put the tie rod ends back over those same balls. Before attempting this, he should investigate why it was so difficult to remove the tie rod in the first place. If the cause truly was hardened grease (which I have never experienced to that degree), he's very lucky. I suspect that the balls were replaced with oversized ones, making it very hard to push the tie rod ends down and over them without using a heavy hammer or lots of heat. Neither should be necessary. A light tap should be all that's needed to seat them over the balls.
Alternately, I have had to use a cutting wheel to remove one coil ring from a repo internal spring because although the length was close to the original spring's, it was WAY harder to compress. Cutting off one ring did the job in most cases and made it easier to screw in the end plug so that a cotter pin could be inserted. It also made steering easier because the steering components weren't pushing against a spring that wouldn't "spring".
Marshall

[Joe K]

I suspect that the balls were replaced with oversized ones, making it very hard to push the tie rod ends down and over them without using a heavy hammer or lots of heat. Neither should be necessary. A light tap should be all that's needed to seat them over the balls.

The slot the ball fits through is actually "keyhole shaped." The objective being you can put the ball in place with the threaded plug "unscrewed", but once lined up, you screw the threaded plug in, which compresses the spring, which pushes on the cup seat capturing the ball INSIDE the narrow part of the keyhole opening.

Thus the ball is prevented from jumping out of the tie rod end by interference.

Technically releasing the threaded plug "undoes" this repositioning of the ball, and allows it to find the round "exit hole" and come apart.

Except for hardened grease perhaps.

Joe K

[J.R. Aiello]

Not to worry about reassembly; I have an expert shop doing that! I know my limits! I did get the drag link off with some good pulling. The tie rod end grease is still very good. Everything moves VERY freely in and out, and I can rotate the rod to extremes easily. As someone noted, all the balls look to be in great shape. Too late for flames tonight, so I try that tomorrow.

[Benson]

Here is a photo of "notch" / "Keyhole" that Joe K speaks about in post 14:

[B]Because of the Notch the ball MUST be moved toward the end of tie rod before ball will come loose.


deleted

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Benson

Here is a photo of "notch" / "Keyhole" that Joe K speaks about in post 14:

...

Many websites use WEBP image format which is not on the "computable" list on the Ford Barn attachments page.

I have copied and pasted the images from Snyders' online catalog without any issue.

[larrys40]

You are doing this the difficult way for sure . Remove the steering arms from the spindles by removing the front spindle nuts and dislodge the steering arms from the spindles. Also remove the steering arm from the sector by removing the pitman arm sector clamp bolt. Take pitman off and remove the entire assembly out the drivers side and so this all in the bench. It needs to be cleaned and blasted and steering arms replaced with “ reatored” units if the balls are worn and I ovalled. New caps and seals . Assemble it all on the bench as a unit and install in the car from the drivers side with single arm pointing straight to make it easier and located and install back in the spindles.
This is apiece if cake. Why folks attempt to do this in the car? I wish this would have been highlighted in the original ford service bulletins.

A tow in is required when any tie rod or end plug is moved.
This process makes it ao much easier.
Larry Shepard
Model A Restorers Club (MARC) Tech advisor

[J.R. Aiello]

An update:

Reminder that this is a tear down of EVERYTHING for restoration, so the wheels, brakes, etc. are all gone already. What's left is the spring perches, the kingpins, the wishbone, and the tie rod, which is on the balls of the steering arms. The problem area is circled in blue.

I haven't gotten the king pins out yet, which is why I haven't taken the whole thing to the bench. Without the wheels, it's diffcult to keep the spindles at their end stop and still pull back on the tie rod.

It appears the problem is the inner cup and spring on both ends are pressing the balls to the furthest end of the rod. It needs to come back just slightly to center the ball in the hole for removal. I was able to remove the rubber cup under the metal one, and that gave me more access to see that inner cup. The spring is strong, so wedging it back while still being able to move the spindle AND pull the tie rod off is more than I can do with 2 hands. I need another person to pull back on the spring while I manipulate the parts. Or create some sort of tool to hold the spring back the doesn't press on the steering arm.

Once out, should the inner cup and spring be removed for cleaning/degreasing?

[Joe K]

The spring is (or should be) a "loose" fit in the threaded portion of the tie rod end. As in FALL OUT if the plug is removed.

Sometimes removing the plug can be a problem. Large screwdriver, or better yet, a cordless or regular impact wrench with a "slotted bit driver."



Use this with a 1/2 drive socket wrench.

I have done this with a piece of flat tool steel and a pair of vise grips, but no impact.

Now I have the 1/2 drive HarborFreight "Bauer" Cordless impact wrench. God's gift to mechanics.

Joe K