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Old 11-02-2011, 01:34 PM   #1
Jim Parker Toronto
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Default Early Engine, more pic's

In the interest of "Preserving History", and not wanting to misrepresent anything, I took some more pictures today to show and get some opinions on. There is NO paint on the block, so that the green/gray debate is still on! There appears to be blue sealant on the rear main bolts and brown primer under the nicely painted black oil pan, so I would summarize that the pan was off and the mains/rods were checked for clearance. Is there anything someone wants to add or need more pictures of? Jim
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 001.JPG (199.7 KB, 509 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 002.JPG (184.2 KB, 441 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 003.JPG (132.7 KB, 473 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 004.JPG (134.0 KB, 454 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 005.JPG (146.6 KB, 462 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 009.JPG (196.4 KB, 485 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 012.JPG (138.6 KB, 473 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 013.JPG (164.0 KB, 493 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 014.JPG (148.7 KB, 455 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 016.JPG (149.5 KB, 497 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 018.JPG (149.5 KB, 472 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 020.JPG (162.7 KB, 442 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 021.JPG (136.6 KB, 440 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 029.JPG (158.3 KB, 613 views)
File Type: jpg Early motor 2 027.JPG (152.5 KB, 452 views)
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Interesting; 3X plug cores are Not made in Canada, & are 30-31 style with later bases...Complete 2nd type dist assy. & so much for the condenser plug.. Early head with stop boss..The intake looks ODD with a weld line around lower half ??.
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Is it my imagination or did they cast the block in three places? The pic. of the front part of the block shoes the seam off to the right then the curved portion over the timing gear and third line that is angled between the two.

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Old 11-02-2011, 02:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

I will have a closer look at my car over the weekend, its about a 1100 earlier than that one also a CA.

I have Firestone plugs as well as some Champions. What was fitted from the factory.
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Thank you so much Jim for the photos. How long is the pad for the engine number?

It is remarkable how good of shape that engine is in.
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Old 11-02-2011, 03:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

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The head is not early, the plugs are interesting. From the previous photos posted,
I thought I could see " blue sealant " on the rear main bolts, the new photos show
it clearly. I think the crank has been out, VERY clean, cotter pin missing from the
fly wheel housing. Still a super find with great parts.
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Old 11-02-2011, 03:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Very interesting way the lock wire is routed in pix #6
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Old 11-02-2011, 03:04 PM   #8
dean from bozeman
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Fred, I checked a couple "humpy" intake manifolds. They all have a line from the forging.
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Old 11-02-2011, 03:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Dean,
My " humpy " doesn't have the line, BUT, has the taper at the block side. Are yours
straight at the block?

* I think the parts all work for an April of 1928 engine *

Last edited by d.j. moordigian; 11-02-2011 at 03:26 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 11-02-2011, 04:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

the plugs (at least the bases) are repop
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Old 11-02-2011, 05:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Also, notice that the intake manifold, although an early '28 style, does not have the threadded and plugged hole, nor the early oil return tube, as indicated by the JS&RG, revision 3.
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Old 11-02-2011, 05:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean from bozeman View Post
Thank you so much Jim for the photos. How long is the pad for the engine number?

It is remarkable how good of shape that engine is in.
The engine pad measures 2 1/8" x 15/16".
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Old 11-02-2011, 05:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Gary, I did notice the return tube, along as stated, the oil pan ?? Wonder Why ?.. Also notice the carb does have the later lower leg.. Wonder if its a double V.. I guess I blew it on the head !!
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Old 11-02-2011, 05:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Can maybe we get a third opinion here about the Head? FRED says it is, and d. j. moordigian says that it is not. I think it is...........
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Old 11-02-2011, 06:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

1 Fred
2 DJ
3 Jim

Looks like you have your 3rd opinion
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Old 11-02-2011, 06:49 PM   #16
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Hopefully this photo isn't too big. In a matter of weeks I have forgotten how to insert photos.

This is a head on Plind's A2820. As you can see it has the pronounced boss for the distributor set screw.

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Old 11-02-2011, 06:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

D.J. I looked at the two humpy manifolds here at the house. One is tapered at the block side and the other isn't. I had never noticed that before. Now I must go down to the garage by the barn and check a couple others.
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Old 11-02-2011, 06:58 PM   #18
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

YUP, as I said, I blew it !! New It When I did it !!..
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Old 11-02-2011, 07:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

John, in regards to the spark plugs the knurling doesn't go down to the base. When I first saw this I had my doubts but am waiting for someone with definitive knowledge to speak up.

Gary, I think that this engine wouldn't have the earliest oil return tube. I've only seen them associated with 3 digit cars.

As far as the threaded hole on the intake manifold, Steve Ciccalone had talked about this very thing the day before he died. We talked about a possible correlation between early gas tanks that had the hole in the firewall for a vacuum line and that hole. Other early gas tanks don't have the hole in the firewall. Some of these early A's belong with Alice in Wonderland because they make me curioser and curioser.

Overall, this engine is quite a time capsule. Yes, it does have a few parts that we would not expect on it. Now did it come like that or where they changed through the 80 years since its "birth"? Only the shadow knows...
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Old 11-02-2011, 07:21 PM   #20
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

My understanding is that the early heads are missing the peanut shaped hole in the middle.
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Old 11-02-2011, 07:23 PM   #21
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

I think Jim is right-on about the plug base's.
Dean, I would think your car should have the straight manifold. With a HOLE.

* Good question,....you and Steve Ciccalone talked about, do you have a
hole in the tank?

Last edited by d.j. moordigian; 11-02-2011 at 07:35 PM. Reason: I love to type
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Old 11-02-2011, 07:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean from bozeman View Post
Hopefully this photo isn't too big. In a matter of weeks I have forgotten how to insert photos.

This is a head on Plind's A2820. As you can see it has the pronounced boss for the distributor set screw.

One thing that concerns me, (when talking production dates) is the fact production in USA started in October 1927, whereas in Canada, it was February 1928. This means to me that something "Early" in the States that had engineering changes, if it was done in the first 4-5 months of production, the "Early" part may have never made it to Canada, as in the head shown above. Then again, as the case with the studs and nuts, if there was an over abundance of these parts, they might have shipped to Canada to make them disappear from the stock that was on hand in the production warehouse. Makes sense to me, any comments? Jim
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Mike V., yes the early heads we minus the water hole between the 2nd and 3rd cylinders.

D.J. Of the four humpy manifolds I have 3 are of the straight variety. I got an original humpy with the hole for A495 from Doug in Baker, OR. Though I see the holed one in some early literature I do not see it in all early literature. Steve has (had) an early NOS tank with no vertical ribs that doesn't have the hole. My early tank has the hole.

Jim Parker, you bring up some real good points. Was "early" the same everywhere? On this point I find it interesting that there are many 3 digit cars found on the West coast. Was Ford dumping them out there because regulations were more relaxed?

When parts were stockpiled at the new plants, did they send the older parts or ones that were reengineered or did they give a rat's ...? I highly doubt that there was any rhyme or reason when using parts off of the "piles". When you see the photos of piles of parts at a Ford plant I don't think that they consciously decided to use the older parts first, particularly if they were under tons of parts. I don't think that they could.

However, I can easily see how that might be wrong when considering the early brake systems. To sell cars out East they needed to make sure that the new brake system was installed. That may be why there are so many early brake systems in trucks and cars out west.

I have a Tudor body and frame A18417 and body number CHI212. The frame had a different type of rear engine mount on both sides. The body had two different front fenders and two different hood shelves. The later variety was on opposite sides. Yup, I believe that there was a lot of mix and match.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Has the later choke arm on the the carb.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:00 PM   #25
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

early 'humpy' with threaded hole/square flat mounting feet ... thinking the hole had been drilled/tapped for a later vac wiper, yours truly mustered his welding skills and filled it in ... just in time for the JS revisions to state otherwise... now trying to decide if i should redrill/tap/plug for originality? comments are welcomed

suspect the 'welding' lines may be casting joints.
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg E28 intake (vac) (cr)-6.jpg (60.3 KB, 112 views)
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:09 PM   #26
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??? Does anybody READ PRIOR POSTS before posting A wrong answer, not sure, or one that already has the same answer ??... As in the 3x spark plugs in this thread...
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean from bozeman View Post
D.J. I looked at the two humpy manifolds here at the house. One is tapered at the block side and the other isn't. I had never noticed that before. Now I must go down to the garage by the barn and check a couple others.
Our late friend found he had a combination of both as well. We did include the change in R3 based roughly on Ford's engineering releases.
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Reese View Post
early 'humpy' with threaded hole/square flat mounting feet ... thinking the hole had been drilled/tapped for a later vac wiper, yours truly mustered his welding skills and filled it in ... just in time for the JS revisions to state otherwise... now trying to decide if i should redrill/tap/plug for originality? comments are welcomed

suspect the 'welding' lines may be casting joints.
Correct me if I am wrong, but, if the engine was in an Open Car, where the windshield wiper was hand operated, why would you need a hole in the intake for a vacuum line? Would it have been there? Just curious, don't mean start anything....
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:59 PM   #29
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Quote from Dean "Jim Parker, you bring up some real good points. Was "early" the same everywhere? On this point I find it interesting that there are many 3 digit cars found on the West coast. Was Ford dumping them out there because regulations were more relaxed?"

I have personally 3 motors that are 3-digit and know of at least 4 more in the Greater Toronto Area. (GTA) Strangely enough, they all start with "CA 5XX)
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Old 11-02-2011, 11:10 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Karr View Post
Also, notice that the intake manifold, although an early '28 style, does not have the threadded and plugged hole, nor the early oil return tube, as indicated by the JS&RG, revision 3.
I don't recall adding anything about the oil return tube except the relationship of the early/late valve chamber cover which was there before. What am I missing?
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Old 11-02-2011, 11:52 PM   #31
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Marco, that is from the '97 revisions in the Early 1928 Vehicles section. "The oil return pipe has a heavy welded seam around the tube approximately 1-1/2" from the attachment bolts." I have seen one original.
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Old 11-03-2011, 02:16 AM   #32
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

If vaccum wipers came out in mid 29 why would any 1928 intake manifolds have a tapped hole?

The center cooling hole was added to the heads in October 1929, so about half the Model A's made came without the center hole.

On the 3X plugs, also notice the knurling has the pyramids going in, rather than rising above the surface as original. Female vs. the original male style knurling.
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Old 11-03-2011, 02:34 AM   #33
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Would not the early open cars have a hand operated wiper & later have the vacuum wiper motor?. Ford Canada was using electric wipers on Tudors & other closed types through 1929. These were not drilled on the intake for a vacuum line. My late [ Oct.] '29 Canadian Tudor is equiped so.
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:07 AM   #34
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

'If vaccum wipers came out in mid 29 why would any 1928 intake manifolds have a tapped hole?'
Tom, this is an understandable statement and my response at first. However, it seems that there was a lot of experimenting going on with the early ones. It may have been that they were going to use vacuum wipers but didn't get around to it until '29.

Gary, here's a thousand words....I mean a picture of the early oil return pipe. This is a genuine one. Both ends have the same type of weld.

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Old 11-03-2011, 12:33 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg View Post
If vacuum wipers came out in mid 29 why would any 1928 intake manifolds have a tapped hole?
That was my line of thinking when i welded the hole ... assumed someone had drilled/tapped sometime later in her octogenarian past. This particular intake manifold was not on my truck when i acquired it, but was in much better shape than the humpy one on her .... so made the switch (prior to publication of the 2011 JS revision).

the info on page 1-10 (2011 rev) is rather emphatic (specific dates) about the changes so, despite the vacuum date conundrum, I assume my Jan '28 should be tapped/plugged (am waiting for dust to settle before i redrill/tap though). i doubt they would have bothered to try to discriminate between manifolds destined for trucks (hand wiper/no hole) vs. other styles
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:44 PM   #36
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

In the early 80,s I found a very early USA block #A254.There was nothing on the block other than the cam,lifters & front timing cover.The timing cover was unusual in that it appeared to be forged as it was very smooth & the gen mount was drilled for only a 3/8"bolt.The boss around the hole was only about 1/4"thick.I took brg caps,C shaft etc from other engines,rebored it and ended up with a nice running engine,then put it in a 28 phaeton.I had saved the early TG cover,but in the process of moving several times,it disapeared.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:31 AM   #37
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

I've been told that the early heads did not have the "peanut" shaped hole in it.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:07 AM   #38
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

It also has the very early water pump with the small hole on the bottom of the casting.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:47 AM   #39
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
I've been told that the early heads did not have the "peanut" shaped hole in it.
Here is a Picture from inside, Dec 27 Head..
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:40 AM   #40
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Here are some pictures of the head I sold to Charles Reese. Early 28 with the original distributor screw which, is different from later screws because it is longer to compensate for the deeper boss.
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File Type: jpg P1000538.JPG (137.0 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg P1000539.JPG (151.0 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg P1000540.JPG (138.0 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg P1000541.JPG (141.5 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg P1000542.JPG (150.0 KB, 44 views)
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:24 PM   #41
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

Sounds like some of you gents may be collecting early 3 or 4 digit engines. Do they bring a premium price? A hobbiest that I know said he would sell me a 4-digit engine that he recently got. He hasn't mentioned a price, but now I'm curious about their general worth.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:37 PM   #42
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Default Re: Early Engine, more pic's

A lot of good info in this tread i wondered about a head i put on my 31 it was all i had at the time without the center peanut hole i knew it was early but not sure of the year and the oil return tube same thing you guys are the best

Last edited by fordcoupe; 05-21-2013 at 06:42 AM.
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