Head Gasket

[BillCNC]

Hey All,

I'm thinking about changing the head gasket on my engine and the vendors have various ones available. What material is the better choice?

I part from most A guy's as in I absolutely DO NOT want junk parts and I'm willing to open my wallet a little further to get the best parts.

Regards
Bill

[AL in NY]

From what I've been hearing, the best head gasket for the Model A is a "Best" 509g graphite head gasket sold by Bratton's under part number 8081. This gasket is highly recommended by Rich Falluca of Antique Engine Rebuilders (AER).

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

It seems that everyones' FAVORITE is the one that has worked BEST, for them!
Bill Perfectseal

[Will N]

I've seen posts about that graphite gasket weeping and staining the engine block. Just FYI.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

It's OK, if some DISAGREE! We're here to glean facts & make our own decisions. We come here to HELP & to be HELPED! I feel sorry for thin skinned Folks, that get "ticked-off"---If you don't like what I post, DON'T READ IT!!
Bill Opinionatedtoo

[Mikeinnj]

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If it is not broken, don't fix it.

[J Franklin]

You are vague about the need to change your gasket. I would agree that you may open up more than you wish if it is not needed.

[Kurt in NJ]

I am using tha same head gasket I bought in 1970, looked at it 2 times, put it back, it looked ok, haven't looked at it in 30 years , it is copper/asbestos, with coating of hylomar last time

Why do you think you need to change it?

[29er]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

From what I've been hearing, the best head gasket for the Model A is a "Best" 509g graphite head gasket sold by Bratton's under part number 8081. This gasket is highly recommended by Rich Falluca of Antique Engine Rebuilders (AER).

Ditto that. I blew a head gasket last summer and went through the same dilemma as you in selecting a replacement. I have a Snyder 5.5:1 head and the gasket that failed was the "Modern" or "Premium" (Snyder #B-6051-M) described as "a solid steel core sandwiched by heavy-duty high density material coated with silicone..." that needs no sealant. My problem was likely initiated by a wonky stud hole in the cylinder block that allowed seepage and had to be repaired with a helicoil.

The choices for head gaskets seem to be: (a) the silicone "premium" one described; (b) copper outside with a graphite core; or (c) all graphite.

In checking around I called three parts suppliers (including Snyder's) and a couple of knowledgeable mechanics. The majority of them recommended the all-graphite. Even Snyder's told me they have received reports of premature failure of the silicone "premium" head gasket and recommended the "Best" graphite. I asked one mechanic why he preferred the all-graphite over the copper-clad gasket and his reason was that there was a possibility of leakage between the layers (graphite-to-copper). Based on that I installed an all-graphite head gasket. So far, so good (after about 1000 miles).

A couple of other things to consider might be:

(1) once the head is off, let a machinist check it for true and mill it if necessary;

(2) use a head gasket sealant on the new graphite or copper gasket (if one of those is the one you choose);

(3) consider replacing all the head studs and nuts with new ones and give the studs a light coating of anti-seize;

(4) re-torque the head several times after installation (hot and cold);

(5) check your water pump and repair/replace as necessary (I used the opportunity to replace mine with a Rupert "super duty" leakless model);

(6) check the condition of your fan and replace if any cracks.

What I report here has been my experience. Others with more knowledge than me may have different ideas.

Wishing you many happy miles ahead!

Mike in Oregon

[BillCNC]

Originally Posted by Mikeinnj

If it is not broken, don't fix it.

I think it's just starting to leak, ... I'm getting water droplet's coming from the tail pipe, ... even after the engine has been warmed up, outside temp 73 and the humidity is at 46%.

I'm not getting steam coming from the pipe yet so I think it's still a small leak. I'm going to do a compression check later today.

Regatrds
Bill

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

I think it's just starting to leak, ... I'm getting water droplet's coming from the tail pipe, ... even after the engine has been warmed up, outside temp 73 and the humidity is at 46%.

I'm not getting steam coming from the pipe yet so I think it's still a small leak. I'm going to do a compression check later today.

Regatrds
Bill

Do you have to constantly add water to the radiator?

[BillCNC]

I just completed a complete chassis rebuild and drove the car a few times, about 15 miles total tweaking things as I go. Every time I come back I have water droplets marking the ground.

Water so far is staying put as far as I can tell, I'm still working out the kinks. I have to to wonder if removing and installing the engine (eyelets in #2 & #4 Cyl spark plug holes) and the removal of the engine cable clamp has caused a leak somewhere. I did try to re-torque the head to 55 lbs, but they were already there.

Regards
Bill

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

I part from most A guy's as in I absolutely DO NOT want junk parts and I'm willing to open my wallet a little further to get the best parts.

Regards
Bill

Seriously??

Originally Posted by BillCNC

I did try to re-torque the head to 55 lbs, but they were already there.

Regards
Bill

Did you back them off one at a time ~¼ turn to "break them loose" then retorque to specs? Lower the water level before doing so, "just in case".

[BillCNC]

Originally Posted by Ruth

Did you back them off one at a time ~¼ turn to "break them loose" then retorque to specs? Lower the water level before doing so, "just in case".

Um, ... NOPE, ... I'll do that now.

Regards
Bill

[BillCNC]

[QUOTE=Ruth;1605492]Seriously??

As a heart attack.

Seems WAY to many folks on this site are afflicted with Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to these Parts Houses.

I'm just not a subscriber of that mindset.

Regards
Bill

[BillCNC]

As far as replacing the studs, should I go with the Grade 5 or 8?

I would think 5's would be easier on the block if an issue popped up, but 8's would be stronger with less stretch. I'm currently running a stock head but there is a good chance that I will go to a high compression head at some point in the future. If that's the case, ... should I just go with the 8's?

What are the Stock studs graded at?

Regards
Bill

[hardtimes]

[QUOTE=BillCNC;1605499]

Originally Posted by Ruth

Seriously??

As a heart attack.

Seems WAY to many folks on this site are afflicted with Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to these Parts Houses.

I'm just not a subscriber of that mindset.

Regards
Bill

Hey Bill,
Just suggestions for easy to do check(s)...for gasket water leak.
Start up your engine and run it for very short time. Pull spark plugs..if water on plugs, you have reason for concern.


Also, once in awhile, I remove radiator cap, while engine cold and while running. A bubble check , which may give further evidence or reason for concern. Good luck

[ryanheacox]

Not sure what the original Ford studs are graded at but everything I've read says to use Grade 5 with a stock head and 8 with a higher compression head.

I put a 5.5:1 head and grade 8 studs in from Brattons a few years ago due to a cracked stock head and a time crunch that kept me from getting it repaired.

First I used the stock copper gasket and it started leaking and running hot not long after. Next I tried the recommended "modern" gasket, same issue. Finally last April I changed to the Graphtite 509G gasket, followed the instructions to the letter and dabbed a little Permatex high tack around the base of each stud for good measure.

Works like a charm! Drove about 50 miles in September(most of the time around 50mph) on a 95 degree day and didn't lose any coolant or come close to overheating.

With a stock head you'd probably do fine with the stock copper gasket but in my opinion I'd go with the Graphtite gasket.

[KenCoupe]

As Bill W said, It seems that everyones FAVORITE is the one that has worked BEST, for them.

I have a Brumfield 5.9 head and he recommends the Fel-Pro 7013, so that is what I used. It has been in place for at least 10 years with no problems (knock on wood). It is copper clad with composite material in the middle. I sprayed it with Copper spray when I installed it. This is just one more data point for you to consider.

Ken

[AL in NY]

If you use the Best Graphite 509g, Rich Falluca's recommendation is NOT to use any type of sealer, that way the graphite "bonds" to the block and cylinder head metal. Don't know, as I am not a metallurgist, just going by Rich's recommendation and he should be in a position to "know".

[JD 1931]

I used the modern style head gasket for my model a original motor and it worked well, stopped all seepage. Installed it about 8 yrs ago...JD

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

If you use the Best Graphite 509g, Rich Falluca's recommendation is NOT to use any type of sealer, that way the graphite "bonds" to the block and cylinder head metal. Don't know, as I am not a metallurgist, just going by Rich's recommendation and he should be in a position to "know".

As does Charlie Yapp at the Secrets of Speed Society;

"ABOUT HEAD GASKETS:
Our Best Brand head gaskets do not require "sealant" if the decks are flat, near-new, fresh, unscored and clean. Sealant is built into the gasket.
Name goes to up to sky. Start Torque at 25 pounds, using the sketch above, in numerical sequence and increase incrementally 5 pounds at a time to a final torque of 55 pounds."

I have a Snyder's 5.5 on my '30 Town Sedan using a Best 573G gasket. No sealant, no problems.

[Flathead]

Pertaining to water droplets at the tailpipe----don't forget that water is a by-product of combustion and some water is perfectly normal.

[Railcarmover]

^^^Not only that,^^^ grey iron castings crack...

[Smog Tech]

Flathead is correct, when you burn gasoline, water is a product of combustion.
The Best website says to use copper spray on their graphite head gaskets. I do and it works well.

[denniskliesen]

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Originally Posted by AL in NY

If you use the Best Graphite 509g, Rich Falluca's recommendation is NOT to use any type of sealer, that way the graphite "bonds" to the block and cylinder head metal. Don't know, as I am not a metallurgist, just going by Rich's recommendation and he should be in a position to "know".

Exactly what I did when installed my 6:1 head over 3,000 miles ago. No leaks, no weeping around the edges. Something AER also recommended at the time was a dab of RTV around the stud at the base of the stud. No coppercoat or anything else for sealer on the surface of the head gasket.

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

You are vague about the need to change your gasket. I would agree that you may open up more than you wish if it is not needed.

yup! it took me 3 weeks to get my head off! the studs where stuck to the head

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

I don’t think anyone sells the 509 G anymore, as it only fits an A. The venders seem to sell the 573, which is for a B with the steam holes. So it will work on either a B or an A. That’s the one recommended for the high compression head.

[CT Jack]

Graphite doesn't bond. It is an excellent high temperature lubricant. If your head is in good condition, flat and not warped, and without cracks I would recommend using a copper gasket. The key to making a Model A gasket not leak is to torque, torque, and retorque the head frequently after installation. Doing this is key to preventing leaking.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by CT Jack

Graphite doesn't bond. It is an excellent high temperature lubricant. If your head is in good condition, flat and not warped, and without cracks I would recommend using a copper gasket. The key to making a Model A gasket not leak is to torque, torque, and retorque the head frequently after installation. Doing this is key to preventing leaking.

A while back, someone here said they check the tension on the head studs at each service. I have adopted that regime and so far, so good. It only takes a few minutes but a blown gasket can be a real PITA.

[updraught]

The copper ones use graphite.

http://www.bestgasket.com/about_our_products.asp
"GraphTite™ head gaskets have superb sealing characteristics, excellent torque retention, and hold up to the punishment dished out by high-performance engines"

[pbishop]

'29er' seems to have covered most everything I could think of and more. Senior Members have those years of experience that cannot be gained any other way.