The Ford Barn

JBill · 07-30-2012, 05:18 PM

Don't sweat it. Salvaging is what we do!

29ModelA · 07-30-2012, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross/Kzoo

There was a good point mentioned about suffering a loss on a salvage title. The Insurance companies look for any excuse to pay less or nothing. A salvage title opens the door on this. Register it a state where you can a "duplicate title" or whatever they call it. In Michigan I went to the DMV with a bill of sale and motor number. Took about 45 minutes to check every state to if was registered there and since it wasn't I got a new title in the mail 3 weeks later and the title looks like every other title I have.

FYI Michigan has made it harder to do this. Now you have to have an appraisal and a Surety bond if the value is enough.

As far as the salvage issue you should be able to negotiate around that. We did with our 73 Buick Apollo when it got damaged. The Ins company totaled it because to paint the car was more than their book value on it. We bought it back for $500 fixed the crumpled fender and painted it. Now it has collector insurance rather then standard full coverage, and still maintains it's regular title.

Basically they paid out a total loss value, then deducted the $500 because we were keeping it. The title never changed hands.

flexiheep · 07-30-2012, 05:39 PM

Still looking into this, but interesting things I have found:

Talked with a MVD guy who has totaled a vehicle in NM, said he got the title stamped by the ins company, and just paid registration fees each year and drove in for 4 years, sold it 6 months ago with no problems. Talked to a couple other coworkers who have bought/owned/driven salvage vehicles in NM (none had been involved with the insurance/initial salvage designation).

Talked to my ins company, they did some digging and found the company won't let them write a policy (even just liability) on a salvage title in NM.... (will ask about reconstructed later)

Looked at the reconstructed vehicle thing, might be a good option, it appears I can use my "salvage title" frame as the base, and have reciepts for major purchases (in my case steering, brakes, fenders, wheels...) they will give a reconstructed title using my existing VIN and add a NM prefix secondary VIN. The form (MVD-10015)says the factory chassis if used will determine the year, make and primary VIN so it will still be a 1930 Ford.

There seems to be a divide between what the forms and instructions say and what reality seems to be, just don't want to get caught between them.

I have no interest in swapping titles/out of state sales/other means to an end.

super flat · 07-30-2012, 05:47 PM

I would come to a value with the insurance company payout to get it under where it would have to have a salvage title. Hope it all works out for you. Gary

flexiheep · 07-30-2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 29ModelA

As far as the salvage issue you should be able to negotiate around that. We did with our 73 Buick Apollo when it got damaged. The Ins company totaled it because to paint the car was more than their book value on it. We bought it back for $500 fixed the crumpled fender and painted it. Now it has collector insurance rather then standard full coverage, and still maintains it's regular title.

Basically they paid out a total loss value, then deducted the $500 because we were keeping it. The title never changed hands.

This would be the best and I plan to present that to the ins tomorrow as an option. I thankfully haven't had much experience with this type of thing, but it seems that NM has some interesting rules in this area.

BTW my 30 Coupe was given a salvage value of $383 for buy back....... Don't you wish you could find any model A for that!

Marco Tahtaras · 07-30-2012, 06:16 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by flexiheep

This would be the best and I plan to present that to the ins tomorrow as an option. I thankfully haven't had much experience with this type of thing, but it seems that NM has some interesting rules in this area.

BTW my 30 Coupe was given a salvage value of $383 for buy back....... Don't you wish you could find any model A for that!

It sounds like you have it insured with your modern car insurer. I'd hope there was someone there that knows this stuff and work with you. From what I know with antique auto insurance they will have a maximum they will pay out (based on your coverage) and if their damage estimate can be reconciled with your damage estimate then they will pay that up to the maximum. You will get a check for that amount and what you do with it and the car is up to you.

flexiheep · 07-31-2012, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

It sounds like you have it insured with your modern car insurer. I'd hope there was someone there that knows this stuff and work with you. From what I know with antique auto insurance they will have a maximum they will pay out (based on your coverage) and if their damage estimate can be reconciled with your damage estimate then they will pay that up to the maximum. You will get a check for that amount and what you do with it and the car is up to you.

I do have my car insured with my modern, can't beat the price, and I only have liability and uninsured motorist. I figure if I personally at am fault I will fix my car (may change one I fix it and it is in better shape). Problem here is I have to deal with the ins of the guy who hit me and is at fault.....

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 07-31-2012, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flexiheep

I do have my car insured with my modern, can't beat the price, and I only have liability and uninsured motorist. I figure if I personally at am fault I will fix my car (may change one I fix it and it is in better shape). Problem here is I have to deal with the ins of the guy who hit me and is at fault.....

In some ways you may be better off that way too. I have seen it where the "other guy's" insurance company determined you had an agreed value (let's say you personally had $7,500.00 comprehensive) and they would argue that you were willing to accept that $7.5k figure in lieu of a more realistic replacement price that the "other guy's" insurance company should have paid. Sadly, I think most hobbyists are under-insured when it comes to their coverage amounts.

Chris Haynes · 07-31-2012, 12:20 PM

Unless you turn over your title to the Ins Co they can't give you salvage papers. Keep your title in your hands.

Charlie Stephens · 07-31-2012, 12:25 PM

Play hard ball with the other guys insurance. To the best of my knowledge if they pay to have the car fixed it is not a salvage title issue. Make them understand that it will be very expensive to them if you end up with a salvage title.

Charlie Stephens

theHIGHLANDER · 07-31-2012, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

Unless you turn over your title to the Ins Co they can't give you salvage papers. Keep your title in your hands.

This^^^^

Any time you keep the "salvage" the title remains in your name unencumbered. The ins co has no DMV or MVD authority. They're settling a debt. The only way it becomes salvage is you hand it over. Is NM different? I wouldn't think so. You may be hollerin before you're hurt. That's not meant as an insult. On the other hand, many collector level cars are never "totaled" by the insurance co.s that specialize in it. Here in MI I kept a totaled car. I got the settlement plus the car, sold the wrecked car, with a clear title, ended up with $1900 more than the totaled car value due the value of the parts. A "totally" legal opportunity...

flexiheep · 07-31-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theHIGHLANDER

This^^^^

Any time you keep the "salvage" the title remains in your name unencumbered. The ins co has no DMV or MVD authority. They're settling a debt. The only way it becomes salvage is you hand it over. Is NM different? I wouldn't think so. You may be hollerin before you're hurt. That's not meant as an insult. On the other hand, many collector level cars are never "totaled" by the insurance co.s that specialize in it. Here in MI I kept a totaled car. I got the settlement plus the car, sold the wrecked car, with a clear title, ended up with $1900 more than the totaled car value due the value of the parts. A "totally" legal opportunity...

NM appears to be very strick with ins companies and totaling cars, the state requires a form to be filled out and a copy of the title with a salvage stamp submitted with the form. I am not sure what the state would do to the ins company if not submitted, but the one I am dealing with made it clear they follow the states laws and will not send me my check till they have stamped my title salvage. Basicly what happens is:

I mail my title to ins company
They stamp my title SALVAGE per state req
They copy title and send original back to me (car hasn't left my ownership) with payout check
They submit a copy of stamped title and MVD-11103 Salvage Vehicle or Vessel Notification to state.
State flags VIN as Salvage in their database
I get my original title back with Salvage stamped on it and the ins payment.

The more I dig into this it appears that a "Salvage" title is fine to own/drive/register the car with. There is another designation of "NonRepairable" that forces sale of car to a liscensed dismantler. That form is filled out by vehicle owner (me, not the ins), and appears to be completely optional. Not sure why you would ever fill the form out unless you were an ins company and the owner didn't retain car for salvage value. This designation would ensure that the car you totaled wouldn't make it back to the road......

In looking at the reconstructed designation I can use my salvage title and frame, then "repair" the vehicle showing purchase of major parts used and do a basic safety equipment inispection to recieve a title with my original year/make/model/vin and a secondary id number (state issued). This title wouldn't say salvage, but reconstructed instead.... Looking into what exactly that means.

I have some other things to look into to make sure I understand exactly how the heck this works in NM.....

Charlie Stephens · 07-31-2012, 03:15 PM

Just another thought. Will you have trouble getting insurance in the future with the salvage title? Since the other person was at fault it doesn't seem like their insurance company should be screwing around with you. Do you have a state insurance commissioner you could contact?

Charlie Stephens

flexiheep · 07-31-2012, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Just another thought. Will you have trouble getting insurance in the future with the salvage title? Since the other person was at fault it doesn't seem like their insurance company should be screwing around with you. Do you have a state insurance commissioner you could contact?

Charlie Stephens

That is the $64,000 question.....

Currently my Insurance company can't insure a vehicle in my state with a salvage title..... I am looking into what a reconstructed designation means.

I have co workers who do have insurance on salvaged vehicles in NM, so it appears someone is writing policies.

flexiheep · 07-31-2012, 03:59 PM

Well, I found the official definition of "non repairable" from the NM motor vehicle code section 66-1-4.12:

A. "nonrepairable vehicle" means a vehicle of a type otherwise subject to registration that:
(1) has no resale value except as a source of parts or scrap metal or that the owner irreversibly designates as a source of parts or scrap metal or for destruction;
(2) has been substantially stripped as a result of theft or is missing all of the bolts on sheet metal body panels, all of the doors and hatches, substantially all of the interior components and substantially all of the grill and light assemblies and has little or no resale value other than its worth as a source of a vehicle identification number that could be used illegally; or
(3) is a substantially burned vehicle that has burned to the extent that there are no more usable or repairable body or interior components, tires and wheels or drive train components or that the owner irreversibly designates for destruction or as having little or no resale value other than its worth as a source of scrap metal or as a source of a vehicle identification number that could be used illegally; B. "nonrepairable vehicle certificate" means a vehicle ownership document conspicuously labeled "NONREPAIRABLE" issued to the owner of the nonrepairable vehicle;

Good news is that my car doesn't come close to this, so no need to worry about non repairable.

From section 66-1-4.16:

C. "salvage vehicle" means a vehicle:
(1) other than a nonrepairable vehicle, of a type subject to registration that has been wrecked, destroyed or damaged excluding, pursuant to rules issued by the department, hail damage, to the extent that the owner, leasing company, financial institution or the insurance company that insured or is responsible for repair of the vehicle considers it uneconomical to repair the vehicle and that is subsequently not repaired by or for the person who owned the vehicle at the time of the event resulting in damage; or (2) that was determined to be uneconomical to repair and for which a total loss payment is made by an insurer, whether or not the vehicle is subsequently repaired, if, prior to or upon making payment to the claimant, the insurer obtained the agreement of the claimant to the amount of the total loss settlement and informed the claimant that, pursuant to rules of the department, the title must be branded and submitted to the department for issuance of a salvage certificate of title for the vehicle;
_________
Basicly NM says that if a total loss is made on a car it must be designated Salvage.

29ModelA · 07-31-2012, 04:21 PM

Personally I think I would get a lawyer to deal with the other agency, or at least consult one. In MI my agency pays out and goes after the other guys insurance. It is probably the only benefit to it being a 'no fault' state.

if there is one thing I have learned they will do what they can to screw you. I know I would not want that salvage stamp on my title.

Jerry Parr WI · 07-31-2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 29ModelA

Personally I think I would get a lawyer to deal with the other agency, or at least consult one. In MI my agency pays out and goes after the other guys insurance. It is probably the only benefit to it being a 'no fault' state.

if there is one thing I have learned they will do what they can to screw you. I know I would not want that salvage stamp on my title.

I very much agree with the contact a lawyer statement. I think if you accept this arrangement you will have a major problem in the future. Take the position that the car can be repaired for less than it's totaled value. There must be some financial advantage to them to total the car rather than repair it. What is the advantage to them? Why do they prefer to total it? You need legal advice!

theHIGHLANDER · 08-01-2012, 07:33 AM

Repair may mean a total restoration. Clearly at today's nat'l average of restoration rates, it's easy to exceed the nat'l average value of select cars. I'm thinking the issue is the value of it when it was damaged, once repaired it should clearly be worth more because of how much restoration/repair was done. You may also be simply the victim of a power monger, the type that thinks he can run rough-shod over you and get something "he" wants. It's happened before.

I had a guy "abandon" a 56 Chevy HT on my property. It was a job/restoration/hotrod project I was to be paid to do. I never got paid for what did get done, nor any advance to make the next move in parts/labor. A local sheriff told me to roll the car to the street so they could pick it up and "dispose of it" for me. YEAH, RIGHT! I exercised my rights as an "Artisan" and was able to get a legal title and sell it. None of us like to consider a person's avarice, their dark side, their plan to decieve for personal gain, and especially in our gig (any old cars) there's an element that uses our nostalgia and passions against us. Just sayin...

flexiheep · 08-01-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Parr WI

I very much agree with the contact a lawyer statement. I think if you accept this arrangement you will have a major problem in the future. Take the position that the car can be repaired for less than it's totaled value. There must be some financial advantage to them to total the car rather than repair it. What is the advantage to them? Why do they prefer to total it? You need legal advice!

We started looking at repair, their guy who said he knew nothing about old cars came up with 6500 to repair, but ignored the brake hardware damage, a lot of the steering system and the fact that the body is racked to the side (car came to rest on drivers side) I found an older gentleman who actually repairs old cars and his drop it off and pick up a ready car is 12K. If I accept a lower fix it offer I will have to do much of the repair myself to fix a car someone else screwed up to get it back to it's previous state. It's state was an unrestored driver that I could take to work at 55 with a straight rust free body and fenders that showed 80 years of use..... The expensive part is getting the body straight and back to previous state, you could close both doors smoothly with a single finger. Mechanically there is damage to the frame, steering brakes and a cracked bell housing along with 3 of 4 fenders....

They want to total the car because of basic math, the ins company values the car at 10K (I think this is reasonable) and repair est came in at 12K.

Kurt in NJ · 08-01-2012, 08:44 AM

I have seen some ins companys "total" a vehicle with litttle damage ----it's about profit, they know they can make more that way, give the owner a low "book" valu, then resell the salvage at a profit---and they want to grab the car that day before the owner can think about it, it's usually a very nice low mileage car that a dealer would pay above bookk for(other than for the minor damage), other companys will look for a way to have the owner keep the car and sometimes work with the repair shop to prevent it being totaled.

If you can agree on a # for repairing the car and keep the paperwork from having the title changed to salvage (It's a pain to jump all the hoops and lines, and going from agency to agency looking for a person to inspect all the paperwork, you may need to trailer the car to several inspection agencys etc,)---it's not about the value of the car with salvage titile for a model A or other old car, it's about what the brand "salvage" may mean to the bureaucrats in the future.

07-30-2012, 05:18 PM	#21
JBill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 702	Re: Salvage title perception question Don't sweat it. Salvaging is what we do!

07-30-2012, 05:39 PM	#23
flexiheep Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bremerton, WA Posts: 38	Re: Salvage title perception question Still looking into this, but interesting things I have found: Talked with a MVD guy who has totaled a vehicle in NM, said he got the title stamped by the ins company, and just paid registration fees each year and drove in for 4 years, sold it 6 months ago with no problems. Talked to a couple other coworkers who have bought/owned/driven salvage vehicles in NM (none had been involved with the insurance/initial salvage designation). Talked to my ins company, they did some digging and found the company won't let them write a policy (even just liability) on a salvage title in NM.... (will ask about reconstructed later) Looked at the reconstructed vehicle thing, might be a good option, it appears I can use my "salvage title" frame as the base, and have reciepts for major purchases (in my case steering, brakes, fenders, wheels...) they will give a reconstructed title using my existing VIN and add a NM prefix secondary VIN. The form (MVD-10015)says the factory chassis if used will determine the year, make and primary VIN so it will still be a 1930 Ford. There seems to be a divide between what the forms and instructions say and what reality seems to be, just don't want to get caught between them. I have no interest in swapping titles/out of state sales/other means to an end. __________________ 1930 Standard Coupe

07-30-2012, 05:47 PM	#24
super flat Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: west bend wi Posts: 314	Re: Salvage title perception question I would come to a value with the insurance company payout to get it under where it would have to have a salvage title. Hope it all works out for you. Gary

07-31-2012, 12:20 PM	#29
Chris Haynes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Camarillo, CA and Pine Grove, CA Posts: 2,832	Re: Salvage title perception question Unless you turn over your title to the Ins Co they can't give you salvage papers. Keep your title in your hands. __________________ 1921 Runabout 1930 Tudor Early 1930 AA Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?

07-31-2012, 12:25 PM	#30
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,031	Re: Salvage title perception question Play hard ball with the other guys insurance. To the best of my knowledge if they pay to have the car fixed it is not a salvage title issue. Make them understand that it will be very expensive to them if you end up with a salvage title. Charlie Stephens

07-31-2012, 03:15 PM	#33
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,031	Re: Salvage title perception question Just another thought. Will you have trouble getting insurance in the future with the salvage title? Since the other person was at fault it doesn't seem like their insurance company should be screwing around with you. Do you have a state insurance commissioner you could contact? Charlie Stephens

07-31-2012, 03:59 PM	#35
flexiheep Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bremerton, WA Posts: 38	Re: Salvage title perception question Well, I found the official definition of "non repairable" from the NM motor vehicle code section 66-1-4.12: A. "nonrepairable vehicle" means a vehicle of a type otherwise subject to registration that: (1) has no resale value except as a source of parts or scrap metal or that the owner irreversibly designates as a source of parts or scrap metal or for destruction; (2) has been substantially stripped as a result of theft or is missing all of the bolts on sheet metal body panels, all of the doors and hatches, substantially all of the interior components and substantially all of the grill and light assemblies and has little or no resale value other than its worth as a source of a vehicle identification number that could be used illegally; or (3) is a substantially burned vehicle that has burned to the extent that there are no more usable or repairable body or interior components, tires and wheels or drive train components or that the owner irreversibly designates for destruction or as having little or no resale value other than its worth as a source of scrap metal or as a source of a vehicle identification number that could be used illegally; B. "nonrepairable vehicle certificate" means a vehicle ownership document conspicuously labeled "NONREPAIRABLE" issued to the owner of the nonrepairable vehicle; Good news is that my car doesn't come close to this, so no need to worry about non repairable. From section 66-1-4.16: C. "salvage vehicle" means a vehicle: (1) other than a nonrepairable vehicle, of a type subject to registration that has been wrecked, destroyed or damaged excluding, pursuant to rules issued by the department, hail damage, to the extent that the owner, leasing company, financial institution or the insurance company that insured or is responsible for repair of the vehicle considers it uneconomical to repair the vehicle and that is subsequently not repaired by or for the person who owned the vehicle at the time of the event resulting in damage; or (2) that was determined to be uneconomical to repair and for which a total loss payment is made by an insurer, whether or not the vehicle is subsequently repaired, if, prior to or upon making payment to the claimant, the insurer obtained the agreement of the claimant to the amount of the total loss settlement and informed the claimant that, pursuant to rules of the department, the title must be branded and submitted to the department for issuance of a salvage certificate of title for the vehicle; _________ Basicly NM says that if a total loss is made on a car it must be designated Salvage. __________________ 1930 Standard Coupe

07-31-2012, 04:21 PM	#36
29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Owosso, MI Posts: 673	Re: Salvage title perception question Personally I think I would get a lawyer to deal with the other agency, or at least consult one. In MI my agency pays out and goes after the other guys insurance. It is probably the only benefit to it being a 'no fault' state. if there is one thing I have learned they will do what they can to screw you. I know I would not want that salvage stamp on my title. __________________ 1929 Model A Barn find. California car, just a few more parts to find. Interior, steering box (rebuild), and I am sure much more!

08-01-2012, 07:33 AM	#38
theHIGHLANDER Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 492	Re: Salvage title perception question Repair may mean a total restoration. Clearly at today's nat'l average of restoration rates, it's easy to exceed the nat'l average value of select cars. I'm thinking the issue is the value of it when it was damaged, once repaired it should clearly be worth more because of how much restoration/repair was done. You may also be simply the victim of a power monger, the type that thinks he can run rough-shod over you and get something "he" wants. It's happened before. I had a guy "abandon" a 56 Chevy HT on my property. It was a job/restoration/hotrod project I was to be paid to do. I never got paid for what did get done, nor any advance to make the next move in parts/labor. A local sheriff told me to roll the car to the street so they could pick it up and "dispose of it" for me. YEAH, RIGHT! I exercised my rights as an "Artisan" and was able to get a legal title and sell it. None of us like to consider a person's avarice, their dark side, their plan to decieve for personal gain, and especially in our gig (any old cars) there's an element that uses our nostalgia and passions against us. Just sayin...

08-01-2012, 08:44 AM	#40
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,157	Re: Salvage title perception question I have seen some ins companys "total" a vehicle with litttle damage ----it's about profit, they know they can make more that way, give the owner a low "book" valu, then resell the salvage at a profit---and they want to grab the car that day before the owner can think about it, it's usually a very nice low mileage car that a dealer would pay above bookk for(other than for the minor damage), other companys will look for a way to have the owner keep the car and sometimes work with the repair shop to prevent it being totaled. If you can agree on a # for repairing the car and keep the paperwork from having the title changed to salvage (It's a pain to jump all the hoops and lines, and going from agency to agency looking for a person to inspect all the paperwork, you may need to trailer the car to several inspection agencys etc,)---it's not about the value of the car with salvage titile for a model A or other old car, it's about what the brand "salvage" may mean to the bureaucrats in the future.