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Old 05-12-2019, 08:32 PM   #1
BillCNC
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Question Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Hello All,

The front crank seal is starting to leak and since the car is down waiting for the Steering shaft to arrive, it's think it's time to replace it.

A couple of questions first:

1) Is it better to remove the engine and do the job with the engine inverted, if not, how does one support the front of the engine?

2) These are the front rope seal's, it doesn't mention if they need an oil bath prior to installation or not.

Regards
Bill
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:16 AM   #2
apbright
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

From memory, there are two rope seals, each circumscribing 180º around the front of the crankshaft. One goes into the oil pan, the other into the front valve cover.

1) 'Better,' with respect to the quality of the result? I would argue it does not matter. However, with respect to speed of getting to the result, I think doing it with the engine in the car will be the winner. That said, both the oil pan and the valve cover will have to be removed. As you indicate, the engine has to be supported in order to remove the front valve cover, which will require an engine hoist. The job will be a pain, but, indeed, less of a pain than removing the engine from the car entirely.

2) All that I have read indicates that one should soak the rope seal in oil beforehand. I wouldn't worry too much about this, for as long as one drops the rope seals into a cup of engine oil at the beginning of undertaking the items described in (1), above, by the time you're done with those (unless you're some kind of hyperspeed Formula 1 mechanic), I'm sure the rope seal will be fully marinated and ready for fitting.

Good luck, Andrew
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

I did this job when my broken pulley chewed up my seals. Leave the oil pan on. Put a jack under it with a board. Remove the gear cover and replace the seal. Replace the seal in the pan and push it down as hard as you can. Soaked in oil. Then grind a 45 deg chamfer on 180 deg of your pulley. More oil, and you can push the pulley past that lower seal. Make sure the chamfer does not extend into the sealing area of the pulley. Put the gear cover on with a new seal and you should be all set.
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

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I did this job when my broken pulley chewed up my seals. Leave the oil pan on. Put a jack under it with a board. Remove the gear cover and replace the seal. Replace the seal in the pan and push it down as hard as you can. Soaked in oil. Then grind a 45 deg chamfer on 180 deg of your pulley. More oil, and you can push the pulley past that lower seal. Make sure the chamfer does not extend into the sealing area of the pulley. Put the gear cover on with a new seal and you should be all set.
I remove the bottom 2 and loosen the top 2 rear mount bolts and watch the accelerator linkage real close in case my jacking gets a little too aggressive.

John
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Update:

I made some studs from some all thread and slotted them for a flat bladed screwdriver to assist in holding the pan and gaskets. However, I seem to be having an issue with the Oil Pan not coming off. That baby is on there. I've been working for about 2 hours trying to get it off. Right now I'm trying to use an Xacto Knife and cut out the silicon and cork between the pan and block. It's a very slow and tiresome process. It's almost like someone JB welded the Oil Pan on.

Anyone else have this issue?

Regards
Bill
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

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A few suggestions digested from others:
1. Don't use silicon ; use a few little contact cement dabs to hold the new gasket up to the block. We use the thin cork, not paper. Tighten bolts to about 5' # or snug, not 20'# as in the Andrews book typo.
2. use some copper coat or black rtv only at the front and rear rope and cork seal intersections. There are some threads about this method.
3. the new front rope seals are teflon coated, not the orig. asbestos. Some suggest not to soak them but glue/ form into the block and pan and then a little grease around the pulley.
4.With the pan out, drop it upside down on a lawn or protected solid surface to knock out the tray and clean sludge if any. Also true up the flange surfaces with a wood block, etc.
5. the vendors sell step up plastic bolts to hold the pan
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:25 AM   #7
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Remember to use a little thread seal on the pan bolts to keep them from loosening, and also because there are some pan bolt holes that are not blind and are open to lube. Those bolts will seep oil/leak. If using cork, do not over torque, my 1st attempt I had read a torque spec somewhere of I think 35 lbs. - had to replace a second time, caused the pan to start warping, and the gasket squeezed out from between the mating surfaces.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:11 AM   #8
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Thanks for the info guy's

I posted a link in the original post as to the rope seals I have. Nobody responded back so I called the parts house to find out what rope seals they are. He said he doesn't think they are the original type and didn't know if they need to be soaked in oil or not.

I'm not a big fan of soaking anything in oil where I need an oil free seal. Trying to put sealer on a surface soaked in oil seem's like a fairy-tale in the making to me. They will go in dry and I will add little dab's of sealer where the individual pieces join and onto the rope seals mating surface's to the block and pan. A little grease will be applied to the contracting area of the crankshaft.

Regards
Bill
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:39 AM   #9
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

I have never purchased pan rope seals from that supplier but if they are the same as Berts and Snyders you will make a big mistake NOT soaking in oil, especially if you cut them flush - soaked or not. I cut mine about 1/16 proud and never had a problem I soak for two days.

John

Last edited by aermotor; 05-14-2019 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Thanks John,

Update:

4 hour's later I have the pan out. It has been pressure washed and I'll paint it in a couple of day's as it's getting ready to rain tomorrow. Talk about a seal, ...

The 4 hour's was strictly trying to wrestle the pan off. I had to make custom xacto blades with teeth cut in to grab the old cork and all the silicon used.

One thing to note, .. My front seal was leaking but I think I could have just tightened the front 2 bolts on either side of the crankshaft. They were loose! I was going to tighten them up and walk away, but since I don't know the history of the engine, I took the opportunity to visually have a look inside. I moved the Crankshaft and looked for scoring of the cylinder walls from the underside and am happy to find, ... All is well.

Now onto tearing down the oil pump for an inspection and cleaning. Is there anything in particular I should be on the look-out for?

Regards
Bill

Last edited by BillCNC; 05-15-2019 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:26 PM   #11
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

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Originally Posted by BillCNC View Post
Thanks John,

Update:

4 hour's later I have the pan out. It has been pressure washed and I'll paint it in a couple of day's as it's getting ready to rain tomorrow. Talk about a seal, ...

The 4 hour's was strictly trying to wrestle the pan off. I had to make custom xacto blades with teeth cut in to grab the old cork and all the silicon used.

One thing to note, .. My front seal was leaking but I think I could have just tightened the front 2 bolts on either side of the crankshaft. They were loose! I was going to tighten them up and walk away, but since I don't know the history of the engine, I took the opportunity to visually have a look inside. I moved the Crankshaft and looked for scoring of the cylinder walls from the underside and am happy to find, ... All is well.

Now onto tearing down the oil pump for an inspection and cleaning. Is there anything in particular I should be on the look-out for?

Regards
Bill

I know very little about the oil pump and what looks worn or bad, perhaps others on the Barn can fill you in. Do a search here, try checking the Les Andrews books. I have had mine out to clean it out. If your pump is in unknown condition, at the very least clean the screen.
My screen was half clogged/closed with both hard and soft gunk. Perhaps order a Spare screen right away just in case you need it.


I hope you have the special tool to hold it in the block when reassembling. The bolt must be a NPT threads, if not you risk stripping the hole or damaging the block. Also do not over tighten the bolt which can damage the pump. Most vendors sell the tool/NPT bolt.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:40 PM   #12
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

In most oil pump rebuild kits includes a gasket with four holes that would be for the bottom plate on the pump , don't use this gasket . The oil pump didn't originally use a gasket on the bottom plate . It has been said that this gasket could be used as a shim if the pump gears were too long and binding or rubbing on the bottom plate . Though the gasket isn't very thick it would add more area inside the pump and reduce pumping action . This has been well covered in the early secrets of speed journal . The only gasket that I use is the one that fits between the pump and the screen cover , this gasket is important . I also usually replace the screen .
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Thank Purdy,

My screen looks clear, is there a specific reason to replace it? I'm trying to cut down on usable part's collection from replacement syndrome.

Regards
Bill
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:10 PM   #14
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

5ometimes the oil pump screen has a lot of crud built up . The screen can usually be cleaned up if you want to spend the time . I have seen some other people that like to set the screen on fire and let it burn off the residue . When I do clean the old screen I use solvent and a brush in my parts cleaner . I mostly just replace the screen instead of taking the time to dirty up the solvent in my parts cleaner . It isn't mandatory to replace the oil pump screen , It is mostly a matter of choice whether you clean or replace the screen .
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Jiggle the shaft back and forth in place to see how much play there is in the bushings. Ideally there should be none or next to none. Gets to be a judgment call. Brattons has bushings and reamer.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:17 AM   #16
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
In most oil pump rebuild kits includes a gasket with four holes that would be for the bottom plate on the pump , don't use this gasket . The oil pump didn't originally use a gasket on the bottom plate . It has been said that this gasket could be used as a shim if the pump gears were too long and binding or rubbing on the bottom plate . Though the gasket isn't very thick it would add more area inside the pump and reduce pumping action . This has been well covered in the early secrets of speed journal . The only gasket that I use is the one that fits between the pump and the screen cover , this gasket is important . I also usually replace the screen .
If the bottom cover is worn from gear rubbing put it back on upside down for the same reason as above.

John

Last edited by aermotor; 05-17-2019 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 05-24-2019, 02:25 PM   #17
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Question Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Hey All,

Well the pans about to go back on. I will be using all the stock gasket's and rope seals. I also already own some Permatex® MotoSeal® 1 Ultimate Gasket Maker Grey sealer. What do you guy's think, use it or not?

Taken from product description:

For two and four cycle engines. Solvent-based bond fully seals within 20 minutes. Forms a tough flexible bond that is highly effective on irregular and uneven joint surfaces. Resists gasoline and other damaging fluids. Withstands temperatures 350°F (177°C) continuous, 400°F (204°C) intermittent.

Regards
Bill
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Old 05-24-2019, 07:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

On hold.

I removed the timing cover and degreased it and found a crack at the left motor mount hole going down and to the right.

Anyone know who sells them?

Regards
Bill
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Old 05-25-2019, 10:24 AM   #19
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

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On hold.

I removed the timing cover and degreased it and found a crack at the left motor mount hole going down and to the right.

Anyone know who sells them?

Regards
Bill
ebay... there are several for sale right now. There are different designs so choose the one you need. Ensure you get a Model A and not Model B as the timing pin hole is in a different location (advanced on the B.). Check Vince's site for info. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/timingcovers.htm

Here's one on ebay to get you started (not mine). https://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-1931-M...kAAOSwITFc16YO


Last edited by Y-Blockhead; 05-25-2019 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 05-25-2019, 11:15 AM   #20
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Default Re: Front Crank Seal Replacement Questions

Thank's Y-Blockhead,

I saw those but they looked a little ratty on the inside. I couldn't see what the condition was inside the camshaft plunger recessed area, ... but he did have a nice clean one that looks the same, so I pulled the Trigger. Now I'll have to wait until next weekend to finish the job.

My replacement steering shaft showed up about the same time as I found the cracks in the cover. I guess I'll switch gears and get back on that.

Regards
Bill

Last edited by BillCNC; 05-25-2019 at 11:20 AM.
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