Losing Coolant

[ryanheacox]

Losing coolant has been an ongoing problem in my Fordor and it's time to finally take some bigger steps to fix it. I switched back to antifreeze yesterday and in a 20 mile drive it lost a gallon. Based on the way the pistons and valves looked when I did the head gasket in May, I don't think it's eating water but it also isn't leaking out.

Also, I added that gallon of water at the bottom of about a 2 mile hill before my house and by the time I got home there was no water in the top tank of the radiator.

My only other thought is that things could be plugged up and water is just getting pushed out the overflow? The engine was running great, plenty of power and very smooth yesterday. I figured it would run badly if it had to burn a gallon of antifreeze over 20 miles? I would very much appreciate your input.

[Marshall V. Daut]

The #1 question that should first be asked in such cases is: Did you fill the top radiator tank to the neck? If so, that's the problem. The coolant should just barely cover the top of the fins inside the top tank, i.e., just above the bottom of the top tank. Hot water needs to expand and will do so according to Boyle's Law (?). That's why you need a lot of expansion room in the top of the radiator tank. If there's too much water, not only will the excess water force its way out, but also more water beyond that. It's like a puking action that once it gets started, doesn't stop until it has reached its natural level. Try putting only 2 1/2 gallons of coolant instead of three after draining the system. Then try the hill again.
I also assume that like about 98% of the Model A's in restorers' hands these days, there's a fancy Flying Quail or Motometer radiator cap in place, right? The two-piece design of these split caps almost invites hot water to find the easiest path out. If you're concerned about the radiator not doing its job because of plugged tubes or loose fins, replace that fancy cap with a plain slightly-domed one that came from the factory. Then test drive with 2 1/2 gallons of coolant. If you don't lose any coolant, then the higher level and/or the split cap is at fault. If with the flat cap the water still rushes out, the radiator is clogged. Possibly the water pump is operating too efficiently via its impeller blades and is pushing more water through the upper neck than the radiator can handle. In such a case, insert a 160 degree thermostat in the upper radiator hose. That will slow down the flow if it is too much for radiator.
Let us know what you find out.
Marshall

[Bob C]

Do you have a baffle in your tank?

Bob

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Put a ROOFING NAIL in your overflow tube!
Bill W.

[Synchro909]

Guys, the OP says that the pistons etc look as though water is finding its way into the cylinders. That pretty much eliminates top tank, overflow etc.
If you replaced the head gasket as recently as May, have you retensioned the nuts to 55 ft pounds and did you do it several times?. Is water getting into only one cylinder? If so, it's around there that you should start looking. The only other way water can get into the cylinders that I can think of at short notice is through a crack in a casting - head or block or maybe rust has eaten a hole though the cast iron, allowing water to enter.

[jthomas6]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Guys, the OP says that the pistons etc look as though water is finding its way into the cylinders. That pretty much eliminates top tank, overflow etc.

Actually, he said it wasn't getting into the cylinders - -
"Based on the way the pistons and valves looked when I did the head gasket in May, I don't think it's eating water but it also isn't leaking out."

I had a similar situation, found that sometime in it's previous life - someone had broken the overflow tube right where it comes through the baffle. I tried to patch the break, only made it worse - ended up putting in a modern overflow tank. All's well, when running hard, it fills the tank, then when shut down it flows back into the radiator.

[ryanheacox]

Marshal, I have a thermostat somewhere, I'll give that a shot if I can find it.

Bob, yes, the rad has that baffle in the top tank

Bill, I really like the roofing nail idea, simple and it'll tell me exactly what I need to know

Synchro, I probably could have said that better. It did not look like water was getting into any of the cylinders but it's also not leaking externally when it just sits. I'm going to re-torque the head again either way. I check it periodically, maybe once every month

[Mitch//pa]

You never mentioned how high your filling the top tank.>..

[ryanheacox]

I've filled it up to the neck, and I've filled it to just over the top of the tubes. But, last night it took a gallon to come just over the top of the baffle.

[springerpete]

Marshall: In case you are interested, it is Charles' Law. Boyle's Law deals with pressure and volume. I think it is Murphy's Law that applies in most other instances. Bill

[Greg Jones]

I just went through this and my conclusion: I was overfilling the radiator. The correct water level is just covering the top of the tubes just as Marshall says. So...it will unnerve you when you open your radiator cap and it will look too low. Since I have learned the proper coolant level, I have not lost any coolant and no more spitting and slobbering all over the hood and the windshield. I agree with Marshall on the "split cap" explanation-they are more difficult to seal and easier to leak than the stock radiator cap. I would recommend you drain the system and carefully measure the coolant going back in (2 1/2 gallons per Marshall) and DO NOT ADD MORE. In my case, if I can actually see coolant in the radiator, it is overfilled.

[Mitch//pa]

Test for combustion gases in the radiator.. If that passes I would seriously look into a radiator issue.
You shouldn't be losing a gallon on a twenty mile ride with it filled at the baffle level

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Ryan,

Had "similar" Model A radiator coolant loss problem with no noticeable coolant leaking into crankcase, no coolant leaking on garage floor at night when parked and no coolant leaks when engine was idling.

When Model A water pump impellers rotate faster at higher engine rpms, the coolant flows faster through Model A water pumps; hence, coolant levels can slightly "rise" upwards in the upper radiator tank.

My Town Sedan's original radiator came with the baffle about 75% rusted out.

Next my overflow tube was much shorter that the correctly positioned & indicated overflow tube in above Reply No. 4.

One vintage "fix' was to slip a rubber hose extension over your overflow tube if it is short ..... then for double protection, Mr. Bill's reply no. 4 above with the roofing nail usually helps to decrease coolant exiting the overflow tube.

I installed "both" a rubber hose extension upwards on my short metal overflow tube, and provided a brass wood screw in the top of my rubber hose ....... have no thermostat ... fill radiator to cover radiator tubes with about 3/4" of coolant, and no more loss of coolant on even 200 mile trips in one day.

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

Losing coolant has been an ongoing problem in my Fordor and it's time to finally take some bigger steps to fix it. I switched back to antifreeze yesterday and in a 20 mile drive it lost a gallon. Based on the way the pistons and valves looked when I did the head gasket in May, I don't think it's eating water but it also isn't leaking out.

Also, I added that gallon of water at the bottom of about a 2 mile hill before my house and by the time I got home there was no water in the top tank of the radiator.

My only other thought is that things could be plugged up and water is just getting pushed out the overflow? The engine was running great, plenty of power and very smooth yesterday. I figured it would run badly if it had to burn a gallon of antifreeze over 20 miles? I would very much appreciate your input.

Ryan-
Roughly how fast were you driving today when you lost the gallon of coolant?

Especially on that downhill run.

I have seen many Model A's that do not lose a drop of coolant for weeks and months, unless the vehicle speed gets above about 35 to 40 MPH.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would retorqued the head, then add a clear plastic line to the overflow pipe, and run it into a gallon jug. This will let you know if you are loosing the coolant out the overflow.

[Marshall V. Daut]

"Springerpete " -
That's for the correction. Now you know why I didn't major in physics.
Marshall

[ryanheacox]

I noticed the motometer begin to spike in town but before that I was driving between 45-50MPH. It made it almost the entire trip running normally, only started heating way up in the last 3 miles.

I did a quick and dirty sniff test for combustion gasses but I really should take it to a shop

I'll drain the coolant that's in it when I get back home on Friday and measure it

[ryanheacox]

Will do Tom, I'll try that Friday as well

[eagle]

Your radiator cap should NOT leak. Any coolant pushed out should be from the overflow tube. Check that the cap seals properly first. Then do like Tom says, push a rubber hose on the overflow tube and run it to a jug tied to the radiator support rods. Don't plan on this being permanent, this is simply for testing and troubleshooting.

[Mitch//pa]

It should be very obvious if it's coming out of the cap versus the overflow pipe at the bottom..

[ryanheacox]

It is very obvious. The cap isn't leaking, if coolant is going out, it's through the overflow. My grandfather had that problem, he changed the cap and it hasn't leaked since

[RUNNERBUN]

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

My only other thought is that things could be plugged up and water is just getting pushed out the overflow? The engine was running great, plenty of power and very smooth yesterday. I figured it would run badly if it had to burn a gallon of antifreeze over 20 miles? I would very much appreciate your input.

I would suggest that this is where your problem lies. Your water pump in good normal condition would be pumping your coolant at a faster rate than it can flow thru your radiator due to radiator being in poor condition. Your coolant will build up in the top tank and therefore out of you overflow. This condition can easily be confirmed by adding a rubber tube to your overflow tube and collect the overflow in a container as others have suggested. A nail placed in the overflow tube may help in reducing the flow by partially pressurising the top tank and forcing more coolant to pass thru the radiator, but this would only be a band aid solution. Your best long term solution is to take your radiator to a specialist shop that can rod it out if this is not a job that you can handle yourself. Or, if money is no object, replace radiator with a new one. Another thought is do you know anybody with a spare known good radiator that may loan it for a trial.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Look at reply #8 to see how I back flushed my original radiator. This helped a lot since rust was blocking the top of some tubes.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ator+wesenberg

[H. L. Chauvin]

Ryan,

A. Losing one (1) gallon within (20) miles, with no water leaking from hoses, no water leaking from radiator cap, no water getting in oil thus making you oil look like milk, your assumption in No. 1 above appears "Right On".

"My only other thought is that things could be plugged up and water is just getting pushed out the overflow?"

B. Then in your added remark in no. 17:

"I noticed the moto-meter begin to spike in town, but before that I was driving between 45-50 MPH. It made it almost the entire trip running normally, only started heating way up in the last 3 miles."

C. This no. 17 remark indicates that "if" extending the overflow tube and "if" providing the nail does not keep coolant from escaping, more than likely a very typical vintage Model A radiator problem is occurring, i.e., your radiator tubes are possibly "partially" clogged and cannot drain coolant as fast as the water pump pumps coolant; hence, initially water exits out of the over flow until you barely have enough circulating coolant to cool your engine.

D. With your reported results of beginning to overheat after driving 45 mph for about 17 miles and losing close to a gallon indicates a strong possibility that your radiator tubes need cleaning so coolant falling down by gravity can keep up with the supply of coolant provided by your water pump.

[Tom Wesenberg]

After back flushing or rodding out the radiator, I'd also install a thermostat. This is better for the engine's quick warm up, and it slows the coolant flow some.

[Mitch//pa]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

A Good time to pull out the thermal imager

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

A SLIGHT head gasket leak usually shows up as a 1 or 2 cylinder MISS, on initial start up, & clears up shortly.
Bill W.

[eagle]

Originally Posted by RUNNERBUN

I would suggest that this is where your problem lies. Your water pump in good normal condition would be pumping your coolant at a faster rate than it can flow thru your radiator due to radiator being in poor condition. Your coolant will build up in the top tank and therefore out of you overflow.

You realize that this is physically impossible? No matter how strong your pump is, NO pump can put out more than it can pull into its suction side. However, vacuum (negative pressure) on the engine side will lower your boiling point and then you can get flash steam, which because of its rapid expansion, will blow coolant out of the system. Therefore making sure the radiator flows well raises the pressure in the engine, making for more efficient cooling. Watch this youtube video, Jackson does a very good job on it.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug01EW7UZGM
If link doesn't work go to youtube and search model a cooling system.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Ryan,

FWIW: Not all Model A radiator problems are alike.

Again, appears you are correct in that your reported coolant loss in this case "is" one of your major problems here. Losing one (1) gallon after 17 miles & driving a little further while losing coolant can spell engine overheating disaster.

With an engine running, one does "not" even need a "water pump" on a cooling system to lose coolant out of a radiator overflow pipe. Model T's and tractors built as late as the 1940's had no water pumps. Coolant circulated very freely and quite rapidly without water pumps. Coolant even easily flows "upwards" to "fill" the tops of these radiators.

When coolant is "constantly" exiting the over flow tube while driving, in a few more miles, one will be up Crap Creek without a paddle because when his impeller is sitting in air, his Model A water pump will be transformed into a hot air windmill.

With no coolant circulation through your radiator your Model A cooling system resembles a WWII diesel emersion heater sitting in a garbage can of boiling water.

And Mr. Jackson did not cover this fact in his You Tube film.

Surprise us all & let us know what you find. LOL

[Jacksonlll]

Your radiator is plugged.

[Y-Blockhead]

Whenever I have a leak I can not find, be it coolant, trans oil, or engine oil, I add some fluorescent dye to the system and after running it check various places with a infrared light. Even if it is coming out the overflow the dye will show on the bottom of the car and end of tube.

[john charlton]

Yes for sure the radiator is plugged . I had the same problem cured by a new rad .The pump is designed for a good rad and overwhelms the top tank with partly plugged rad (normally the centre third, too much waterpump grease) The system is not sealed so the overflow pipe pulls in air now and again so no vacuum in the system . The top tank then overflows but not continuously if you get my drift .

John in nice afternoon Suffolk County Rngland

[ryanheacox]

Well, I'm glad the consensus is a plugged radiator. It's better than the alternatives. I will definitely report back with my findings on Friday. It would be really cool if I could find someone with a thermal camera. I'll also have to do some calling around to see if there's a shop in the area that can rod out a radiator.

[Mitch//pa]

Buy one
https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread...Thermal+imager

[bnchief]

Like Mitch said tubes are old corroded and thin fix the problem the first time.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Ryan,

Prior to paying for rodding out, you may luck out and be able to clean the tubes with a few of the home remedies mentioned in the archives under Search.

Some radiators are clogged with water pump grease mixed with crud.

Others are clogged with minerals deposited from well water or treated tap water which is full of minerals after contacting earth.

POR 15 Marine Clean did the job for me on a dirty original radiator .... today, never exceed 180 degrees even in 100 degree weather.

Other may chime in with their successful Betty Crocker Recipes. LOL

[ryanheacox]

Well, I dumped in a gallon of vinegar and ran the engine for 15 or so minutes last night. I'll take it out for a ride today, I think the roads are washed off by now. I'll see how that works out.

If anyone else has a suggestion on what to use as a cleaner I'd like to hear it.

[Mitch//pa]

To late now

[Dollar Bill]

AutoZone type parts stores will loan a HC sniffer to check for combustion gasses in your cooling system.

[1crosscut]

If you think it might be grease, dirt, grime etc... in the radiator. Pull the radiator out, block off the inlet, outlet, overflow tube, put in 1 gallon of Simple Green concentrate and screw on the cap. Slosh it back and forth several times a day for a few days and then flush it out with water.
Get a cheap meat thermometer from the grocery store so you can check the coolant directly to see what the water temperature actually is.

[Jacksonlll]

You might want to watch this video that shows what is in there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0O4...cz4R0&index=24

[ryanheacox]

Well, I think I can say with decent certainty that it is a clogged radiator. The attached picture shows that about half a gallon of coolant was pushed out over about 2-3 miles. Looks like it's time to find a radiator shop.

[ryanheacox]

Also, Jack your videos have been incredibly helpful. Thank you for that

[Mike]

Just call BERGS RADIATOR and get yourself a new radiator !!

mike

Gery Bergbower
Berg's Radiator
332 South Paul Avenue
Bluford, IL 62814

Phone: 618-231-3507

Fax: 618-732-6275

[email protected]

[Mitch//pa]

Now that you ran vinegar in the system you have a very good chance of clogging your newly repaired or new radiator if you do not take the correct steps and precautions. There is a systematic way to do things..
Search VINEGAR and EVAPORUST...

[31 Model A]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by mike

just call bergs radiator and get yourself a new radiator !!

Mike

gery bergbower
berg's radiator
332 south paul avenue
bluford, il 62814

phone: 618-231-3507

fax: 618-732-6275

[email protected]

..........x2

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Ryan,

Most cleaning methods recommended herein are for cleaning a mixture of an excess of old oil pump grease mixed with miscellaneous crud and minimal mineral deposits mixed with grease.

Appears what you may have is hardened mineral deposits that built up over quite a few years by Model A owners who did not use distilled water or rain water in this radiator.

After 80+ years, well water and filtered, treated water that came in contact with the earth are full of dissolved minerals which build up and clog radiator tubes.

Very dangerous caustic soda will clean the radiator tubes as recommended by Mr. Victor Page in his 1931 Model A book; however, why risk accidental Model A paint removal, burnt skin, possible loss of eyesight, etc., etc. associated with improper handling of caustic soda.

Options that you correctly mention in your reply no. 42 appear to be a radiator shop or new radiator.

Just remember not "all" radiator shops "today" have the vintage knowledge and/or are willing to do what has to be done with a Model A radiator ...... might take some searching.

[eagle]

When you bring it in to a radiator shop, make SURE they know it is NOT to be pressure tested like a modern radiator. Will spring leaks like an all day baby diaper.

[ryanheacox]

Thanks for your replies. Apart from neutralize the vinegar and flush the block, what needs to be done about the vinegar? And I know H.L., I have yet to find a shop near me that will take on the job let alone one that is confident. I'll make sure to tell them not to pressure test it when I do.

[davidlee1313]

If you are pushing coolant/water out the cap, could the overflow tube be plugged?

[davidlee1313]

If you are pushing water/coolant out the cap, could the overflow tube be plugged?

[Jerry in Shasta]

what does the oil look like? If it's like a milk shake, the block or head gasket is your problem.
JB

[Cornishman]

I had similar symptoms on my car. I suspected the head gasket but found this.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Cornishman

I had similar symptoms on my car. I suspected the head gasket but found this.

Is that hole from the head being rusted away by using plain water?

I've never seen this happen before.

[Cornishman]

(Third time lucky for this reply? I've been having trouble with an edit function that doesn't let you edit, it just tells you that the post is similar to a post that you posted recently.)

I think that using plain water is not really the main problem. I think it's a combination of it being over 85 yeas old and spending a lot of time sitting around. The symptoms were very similar to the OP's.

[Tom Wesenberg]

That head would be a good one to make a cutaway display. Then you can also better learn the cause of the hole.

It has to be one of three things.
Mechanical damage, such as the piston pushing a screw through it, but that doesn't appear to be the cause.
Rust from water, which it appears to be by the thin jagged edge.
A poor casting, which is highly unlikely, as it would have shown up bad from the start.

[Cornishman]

I would guess it was caused by a less than perfect casting resulting in the water damage. The damage has definitely come from above rather than below. Another one of those interesting little experiences that makes owning a Model A such a wonderful thing.

[Cornishman]

New head fitted and up and running again. Now I will be able to discover if the hole in the head was the main cause of my coolant loss or just a coincidence.

[Houdini]

Just saw this thread, so a little late, but I had a similar problem earlier this year, when I put in a new water pump, and lost about a gallon in 20 miles too. I had been using Prestone antifreeze before the new pump. After putting in the new pump, I put in fresh Prestone. I found it was loosing coolant like the poster had. Found the Prestone was foaming out the overflow. In the thread I posted, suggestions were a head gasket leak etc, pushing air. I didn't find any compression leak. In the end, I switched to distilled water and anti corrosion additive. I don't loose any coolant now. In both cases, the coolant level was set just above the baffle.
Some of the respondents claimed they had similar problems with Prestone and when they switched to Sierra, the problem went away. I plan to switch to Sierra, but have some additional work to do before hand. I think the main problem was a more aggressive pump churning up the coolant. The radiator flow tested fine.

I guess my main point is perhaps the brand of coolant was part of the problem.