The Ford Barn

CatMan1 · 10-26-2021, 07:27 AM

It's getting colder here in Iowa. I've noticed that when I take my '28 Sport Coupe out for a drive it grinds more now that its cold when shifting to 2nd and 3rd. Maybe it's operator error? I know that the transmission and rear end haven't been serviced yet since I bought it in May. It's on the list. It was shifting better, though. I don't double-clutch on the up-shifts, but do shift nice and slow. A couple times I've gotten frustrated and shoved the clutch down hard and then it seemed to shift better. (Does the clutch pedal have to be flat on the floor before shifting? I've always done it that way.) Could the wrong lightweight transmission fluid cause this? I wouldn't think so, though. As the car warms up it seems to do better.

marty in Ohio · 10-26-2021, 07:35 AM

Cat Man,
It sounds exactly like my car that I've driven for almost 30 years. Welcome to the world of the Model A.
Marty

CatMan1 · 10-26-2021, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marty in Ohio

Cat Man,
It sounds exactly like my car that I've driven for almost 30 years. Welcome to the world of the Model A.
Marty

Oh, so normal? lol I threatened to trade her (Esmeralda) off for a '47 Chevy and the very next shift was super smooth! lol

I think they can understand us!

Ed in Maine · 10-26-2021, 07:56 AM

You mentioned that you haven't serviced the transmission since you bought it last May. Do not drive it again until you check the oil level in the transmission (600W wt.) These transmissions leaked when they were new! If it is not dripping, it is empty or the previous owner installed new o-ring seals on the transmission shafts. Highly recommended. I just purchased a restored Victoria and I drained the transmission because I didn't know what fluid was in it. It is easy to do. With new 600W oil in the transmission and a properly adjusted clutch pedal, you should not be grinding a lot. Good luck with your new Model A. Ed

CatMan1 · 10-26-2021, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed in Maine

You mentioned that you haven't serviced the transmission since you bought it last May. Do not drive it again until you check the oil level in the transmission (600W wt.) These transmissions leaked when they were new! If it is not dripping, it is empty or the previous owner installed new o-ring seals on the transmission shafts. Highly recommended. I just purchased a restored Victoria and I drained the transmission because I didn't know what fluid was in it. It is easy to do. With new 600W oil in the transmission and a properly adjusted clutch pedal, you should not be grinding a lot. Good luck with your new Model A. Ed

I'm sure you're right. I do have the 600W oil for it. I'd better do that next.

Mulletwagon · 10-26-2021, 09:13 AM

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Ask two Model Aers how to shift and you will get eight opinions. Typically, when the trans is cold you can shift to 2nd without double clutching. Once warmed up it will probably require a double clutch to avoid gear clash. The 2nd to 3rd shift normally always requires a double clutch. Some folks are really good at harmonizing the the engine rpm with driving speed and can single clutch - or not clutch at all. The trick to down shifting from 3rd to 2nd is to raise rpm in neutral before dropping in gear. Normally the clutch pedal should go to the floor when shifting - providing the fre travel is properly adjusted. Mastering Model A shifting is "graduation day". Good Luck.

CatMan1 · 10-26-2021, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulletwagon

Ask two Model Aers how to shift and you will get eight opinions. Typically, when the trans is cold you can shift to 2nd without double clutching. Once warmed up it will probably require a double clutch to avoid gear clash. The 2nd to 3rd shift normally always requires a double clutch. Some folks are really good at harmonizing the the engine rpm with driving speed and can single clutch - or not clutch at all. The trick to down shifting from 3rd to 2nd is to raise rpm in neutral before dropping in gear. Normally the clutch pedal should go to the floor when shifting - providing the fre travel is properly adjusted. Mastering Model A shifting is "graduation day". Good Luck.

I'm getting closer to 'graduating'! Some days are better than others. Some parts of the drives are better than others. I've wondered if the clutch needs adjusting. Another issue that I sometimes have is the throttle lever sneaks down occasionally. I know that can be an issue.

katy · 10-26-2021, 10:23 AM

[QUOTE=CatMan1;2070377]I've wondered if the clutch needs adjusting./QUOTE]

Check the free play, it should be 1" to 1-1/2" .

Will N · 10-26-2021, 10:25 AM

It's perfectly normal for the gears to grind when the transmission oil is cold and thick if you do not double clutch between shifts. After a few miles of driving, when the tranny warms up, I bet it goes back to normal, right?

Bob Bidonde · 10-26-2021, 10:33 AM

I strongly suggest that you use a American Institute of Petroleum GL series modern gear oil in the transmission and differential in lie of the stuff called 600w.
Is there test data that proves the 600W stuff is suitable for transmissions and differentials?

CatMan1 · 10-26-2021, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will N

It's perfectly normal for the gears to grind when the transmission oil is cold and thick if you do not double clutch between shifts. After a few miles of driving, when the tranny warms up, I bet it goes back to normal, right?

It seems to be the current pattern. I guess I thought it would be the opposite and that colder, stiffer fluid would help slow the gears down quicker. Evidently not.

ETAModel · 10-26-2021, 10:39 AM

I worked on heavy equipment years ago, in cold weather they always needed to warm up a while before you could even get them in gear. Old Cable D-8's, Tail dumps, all the same. The cold weather makes oil thicker, harder to move parts in it. That's just normal. I'd check the fluid level on your trans, not good to run them dry. I took the floor wood off and checked ours from above, was easier then from under the car.

CatMan1 · 10-26-2021, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

I strongly suggest that you use a American Institute of Petroleum GL series modern gear oil in the transmission and differential in lie of the stuff called 600w.

I already have purchased the 600W so I'll probably end up using it, but what would be the benefit to the modern oil you've mentioned? Will I notice a big difference?

scott_vt · 10-26-2021, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed in Maine

You mentioned that you haven't serviced the transmission since you bought it last May. Do not drive it again until you check the oil level in the transmission (600W wt.) These transmissions leaked when they were new! If it is not dripping, it is empty or the previous owner installed new o-ring seals on the transmission shafts. Highly recommended. I just purchased a restored Victoria and I drained the transmission because I didn't know what fluid was in it. It is easy to do. With new 600W oil in the transmission and a properly adjusted clutch pedal, you should not be grinding a lot. Good luck with your new Model A. Ed

Good Afternoon Ed,
Totally agree ! Thought I mastered my down shifts and started to get some grinding ! Crawled under the car and sure enough, transmission was way low. Filled it and checked my clutch adjustment while I was there, and Im back to making grind free down shifts !

Great advice Ed !

scotty

wwirz · 10-26-2021, 01:17 PM

There are some nice YOUTUBE videos on how to shift a Model A. I make sure the transmission if up to the mark with 600W (or what the distributors sell as 600W). WHen the transmission is cold it shifts better. I never double clutch when upshifting and I am also not a racecar driver. 1st to 2nd no problem. 2nd to 3rd, I take it out of 2nd...count to 3 and shift into 3rd. When downshifting from 3rd to 2nd, I always double clutch. Sometimes I grind..... lightly grind. If I do I start the downshift again. I figure in 91 years there had to be a little grinding going on and I am likely babying the car too. Have fun...we all get better at shifting the more driving we do.

nkaminar · 10-26-2021, 02:05 PM

Mitchell recommends 85W-140 GL5 in their transmissions and overdrives. The 85W means it will be thinner in the winter and the 140 means it will be thicker in the summer, so more constant in viscosity. The modern oils have additives that protect the gears and will make the transmission last longer. The 600 W oil that is sold is different depending on what vendor you buy it from. There is no standard. It was great oil in 1930 but this is 2021 and oils have come a long way.

The multi grade oil acts like a thinner oil when it is colder and acts like a thicker oil when it is warmer. Thanks Ruth.

Ruth · 10-26-2021, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Mitchell recommends 85W-140 GL5 in their transmissions and overdrives. The 85W means it will be thinner in the winter and the 140 means it will be thicker in the summer, so more constant in viscosity. The modern oils have additives that protect the gears and will make the transmission last longer. The 600 W oil that is sold is different depending on what vendor you buy it from. There is no standard. It was great oil in 1930 but this is 2021 and oils have come a long way.

I think it would be better to say 85W-140 is thinner when cold and thicker when warm. It doesn't necessarily have to be winter or summer.

I use Lucas 85W-140 in my Transmission and Mitchell O/D.

eagle · 10-27-2021, 10:12 AM

Shifting smoothly in an A isn't difficult if you do a few things. Of course the fluid needs to be up and proper viscosity, I use 100% Lucas Oil Stabilizer. Then: 1. Keep the hand throttle at LOW idle, the lower the better, if you are having trouble with it stalling at low RPM, fix it (vacuum leak, carb issue, float level, etc) 2. Shift early, take a look at the original owners manual, shift at lower RPM. 3. Shift slowly, wait a couple seconds BETWEEN gears. 4. Double clutch when downshifting with a blip on the throttle. Also, don't hurry, give the car time to slow down. There is no reason to grind em', ever.

10-26-2021, 07:27 AM	#1
CatMan1 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 336	Grinding When Cold It's getting colder here in Iowa. I've noticed that when I take my '28 Sport Coupe out for a drive it grinds more now that its cold when shifting to 2nd and 3rd. Maybe it's operator error? I know that the transmission and rear end haven't been serviced yet since I bought it in May. It's on the list. It was shifting better, though. I don't double-clutch on the up-shifts, but do shift nice and slow. A couple times I've gotten frustrated and shoved the clutch down hard and then it seemed to shift better. (Does the clutch pedal have to be flat on the floor before shifting? I've always done it that way.) Could the wrong lightweight transmission fluid cause this? I wouldn't think so, though. As the car warms up it seems to do better.

10-26-2021, 07:35 AM	#2
marty in Ohio Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Elyria, Ohio Posts: 755	Re: Grinding When Cold Cat Man, It sounds exactly like my car that I've driven for almost 30 years. Welcome to the world of the Model A. Marty

10-26-2021, 07:56 AM	#4
Ed in Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cty., ME or Flagler Cty., FL Posts: 1,106	Re: Grinding When Cold You mentioned that you haven't serviced the transmission since you bought it last May. Do not drive it again until you check the oil level in the transmission (600W wt.) These transmissions leaked when they were new! If it is not dripping, it is empty or the previous owner installed new o-ring seals on the transmission shafts. Highly recommended. I just purchased a restored Victoria and I drained the transmission because I didn't know what fluid was in it. It is easy to do. With new 600W oil in the transmission and a properly adjusted clutch pedal, you should not be grinding a lot. Good luck with your new Model A. Ed

10-26-2021, 09:13 AM	#6
Mulletwagon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 585	Re: Grinding When Cold Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Ask two Model Aers how to shift and you will get eight opinions. Typically, when the trans is cold you can shift to 2nd without double clutching. Once warmed up it will probably require a double clutch to avoid gear clash. The 2nd to 3rd shift normally always requires a double clutch. Some folks are really good at harmonizing the the engine rpm with driving speed and can single clutch - or not clutch at all. The trick to down shifting from 3rd to 2nd is to raise rpm in neutral before dropping in gear. Normally the clutch pedal should go to the floor when shifting - providing the fre travel is properly adjusted. Mastering Model A shifting is "graduation day". Good Luck.

10-26-2021, 10:23 AM	#8
katy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Red Deer, Alberta Posts: 5,043	Re: Grinding When Cold [QUOTE=CatMan1;2070377]I've wondered if the clutch needs adjusting./QUOTE] Check the free play, it should be 1" to 1-1/2" . __________________ If you don't hear a rumor by 10 AM, start one!. Got my education out behind the barn!

10-26-2021, 10:25 AM	#9
Will N Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,100	Re: Grinding When Cold It's perfectly normal for the gears to grind when the transmission oil is cold and thick if you do not double clutch between shifts. After a few miles of driving, when the tranny warms up, I bet it goes back to normal, right?

10-26-2021, 10:39 AM	#12
ETAModel Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Along the Red River, Texas Posts: 360	Re: Grinding When Cold I worked on heavy equipment years ago, in cold weather they always needed to warm up a while before you could even get them in gear. Old Cable D-8's, Tail dumps, all the same. The cold weather makes oil thicker, harder to move parts in it. That's just normal. I'd check the fluid level on your trans, not good to run them dry. I took the floor wood off and checked ours from above, was easier then from under the car.

10-26-2021, 01:17 PM	#15
wwirz Senior Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Corning NY Posts: 244	Re: Grinding When Cold There are some nice YOUTUBE videos on how to shift a Model A. I make sure the transmission if up to the mark with 600W (or what the distributors sell as 600W). WHen the transmission is cold it shifts better. I never double clutch when upshifting and I am also not a racecar driver. 1st to 2nd no problem. 2nd to 3rd, I take it out of 2nd...count to 3 and shift into 3rd. When downshifting from 3rd to 2nd, I always double clutch. Sometimes I grind..... lightly grind. If I do I start the downshift again. I figure in 91 years there had to be a little grinding going on and I am likely babying the car too. Have fun...we all get better at shifting the more driving we do.

10-26-2021, 02:05 PM	#16
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Grinding When Cold Mitchell recommends 85W-140 GL5 in their transmissions and overdrives. The 85W means it will be thinner in the winter and the 140 means it will be thicker in the summer, so more constant in viscosity. The modern oils have additives that protect the gears and will make the transmission last longer. The 600 W oil that is sold is different depending on what vendor you buy it from. There is no standard. It was great oil in 1930 but this is 2021 and oils have come a long way. The multi grade oil acts like a thinner oil when it is colder and acts like a thicker oil when it is warmer. Thanks Ruth. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 10-26-2021 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Update content

10-27-2021, 10:12 AM	#18
eagle Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Eagle Bend, MN Posts: 2,025	Re: Grinding When Cold Shifting smoothly in an A isn't difficult if you do a few things. Of course the fluid needs to be up and proper viscosity, I use 100% Lucas Oil Stabilizer. Then: 1. Keep the hand throttle at LOW idle, the lower the better, if you are having trouble with it stalling at low RPM, fix it (vacuum leak, carb issue, float level, etc) 2. Shift early, take a look at the original owners manual, shift at lower RPM. 3. Shift slowly, wait a couple seconds BETWEEN gears. 4. Double clutch when downshifting with a blip on the throttle. Also, don't hurry, give the car time to slow down. There is no reason to grind em', ever. __________________ "There are some that can destroy an anvil with a teaspoon and shouldn't be allowed to touch anything resembling a tool."