Ugly Copra Drab

[Terry, NJ]

To kinda get my wife on board with this project, I let her choose the color! Her choice? The Drabs! Chichle and Copra. I would have go0ne with the greens! This is a Town Sedan and there wasn't much choice. So we were of the idea that "The Drabs" were basically a dark and light brown. However, I went with PPG and the Chichle isn't too bad, but the Copra is downright ugly! It's almost black! Greenish Black! I'm not happy with it. Does anyone know if this is correct? I have read where the Later Copra is more green and darker than it used to be. Can this be helped?
Terry

[Jerry in Shasta]

I think the operative word is DRAB, you know, kind of like OLIVE DRAB.
JB

[Mikeinnj]

Why go to all the trouble of restoring a Model A and then choose a paint color you do not like ?
Keep in mind that down the road, a well restored car painted with "unpopular" colors can limit the restorations sale price. But......to each his (or her) own.

[Terry, NJ]

LOL, Good One! However, all the colors Ford chose in the thirties were ugly. I don't like any of them, except Washington blue, maybe Brewster green, and probably one or two more colors that weren't used on town sedans. So it isn't like I gave something I liked a whole lot for this attempt at matrimonial bliss. But I was hoping for a little better than this.
Terry

Originally Posted by Jerry in Shasta

I think the operative word is DRAB, you know, kind of like OLIVE DRAB.
JB

[cp5491r]

I liked the colors so much I used them on both cars.

[Jim Huseby]

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I agree with mikeinnj, however consider that women are often better at chosing colors than men, and you said you want her on board (a great key to happiness). In my opinion, chicle and copra are just elegant on a Model A town sedan with cream, not straw, wheels. Have a good look at some A's painted that combination. There are three possibilities with the copra: 1) The chip looks black on a white paper background, so cut out a rectangle slightly smaller than the chip in a sheet of black paper and view the chip through that rectangular window. 2) Paint stores frequently don't get the color right. 3) If the paint has settled in the can, the white pigment has settled to the bottom and may take a few minutes of thorough stirring to get it stirred in. Cover a small card with the stirred color then examine it in sunlight and shade.

[Jim Huseby]

Yeah, like cp5491r's cars. They look great in front of that house.

[Mitch//pa]

Terry take the paint chip for whatever color u want to use from the paint & restoration guidelines book and get it scanned at ::::
http://www.flanneryautomotive.com
they have the latest digital scanning equipment

if you want to buy any paint from them pm me as i have an wholesale account there.... and of course any quality product is not cheap
just trying to be helpful

[Rowdy]

I also do not like some of the colors, the drabs being among them. But my biggest dislike is the 50 shades of brown for the interiors. I think this dislike comes from the AMC Matador we owned when I was a kid. I disliked this car more than any other car I can remember. My parents bought it after the 440 in the Dodge Cornet through a rod. What a downgrade. Rod

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Which part of this color are you thinking is "Black -Greenish Black". I think you are looking at the wrong color as Copra is not almost Black nor is it Greenish.

Below is Doug Clayton's Fordor that has the original paint on it. It honestly does not look Green to me, ...plus compare the Black Fenders to the Copra and see how much difference there is.
.

[wrndln]

PPG's Copra Drab is NOT the correct color - a gray instead of a brown. I have posted several messages about this - just search for Copra+Drab. DuPont ChromaPremier single stage paint is the correct color.
Rusty Nelson

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Terry,

FWIW:

Maybe prior to giving up on your love one's wishes for Model A Town Sedan colors, from different Model A's many have seen in the past, it appears that both of these two (2) colors, (Chicle & Copra), are not always the same exact colors because of manufacturer's differences of interpretation of Ford's formulae for his original colors.

Formulae for Ditzler, PPG, Dupont, etc. etc. have always varied in the past. Lots also depends on the individual doing the mixing -- almost impossible to mix two "separate" batches of paint to look alike when exposed to sunlight.

For example, some Chicles & Copras are more blackish, some more greenish, some more brownish; while some appear to look like a color formulated for funeral home curtains hanging behind a Model A owner's casket who did "not" like whitewall tires; however, others appeared more lively, like a lively (2) tone short skirt on a young Tootsie doing the Charleston in a smoke filled night club.

Just Google "copra & chicle paint colors" & one can "see" different paint hues of these paint colors; plus, many former detailed Ford Barn discussions on how these (2) colors can vary.

Maybe just try staying away from the funeral curtain color formulas.

[Roadster Rich]

I really like Marco's website with the color combinations that he shows on the roadster body. Not your car but I think on my computer that his color for the chicle drap looks just like some of the cars that I have seen that I really liked. I do think this is one of the most varied colors I have ever seen on a Model A. Just at Mike's Affordable meet in 2014, there were 6 cars of this color and I only thought two of them were close (or at least were what I liked). Give Marco's site a look.

[Bob C]

Here's the link to Marco's site http://www.abarnyard.com/roadster/co...orchange.shtml

Bob

[Stew Masche]

Have you checked the colors in the paint and finish guide available from the national clubs? These should be most accurate chips, have them matched at a reputable body shop or paint store, get a small sample of each and try them on something else first to get an idea of what they really look like. Photos of other cars can also be deceiving. There may be a little cost involved, but at least you'll know what you'll be getting.

[BlueSunoco]

Terry the 'greenish black' sounds like it might be Brewster Green. Not a bad color saw a Roadster last year at an antique car show painted that and it looked sharp.

Not a big fan of the Chicles and Copras either. Used to be a car in a brownish hue had one of the lowest resale values back in the 60's-70's. Greens were next.

Of course there's always OD Green, Olive Drab (or as we used to say 'Over Dirt')

[ronn]

"Not a big fan of the Chicles and Copras either..........."

Terry, I love those colors and always saw them as "greenish" but certainly not blackish......
your wife has good taste- follow her lead.

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by Jim Huseby

Yeah, like cp5491r's cars. They look great in front of that house.

So maybe you need a new house to set it off?

[Terry, NJ]

Mitch, I got the paint from RW Mallon on 611 in Warminster. I know Flannery in Telford. Mallon's I knew much better as I had bought other stuff from them and they have always been helpful.
I just checked the sample of the can contents on the top of the can and it didn't get any better over night. It's a dark charcoal grey with a slight greenish cast to it. Not at all like like the color in Brent's picture This is supposed to be PPG Shop Line JE, However, It's says Dk Greyfern??? and there is a reference top FORD IN AMERICA (Where else would they be?). And there is a "revision" date of 12/9/2005. This stuff was mixed yesterday AM. This is not copra drab! At least as I know it. What's next? Where can I get a definitive sample of Copra Drab?
Terry

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Terry take the paint chip for whatever color u want to use from the paint & restoration guidelines book and get it scanned at ::::
http://www.flanneryautomotive.com
they have the latest digital scanning equipment

if you want to buy any paint from them pm me as i have an wholesale account there.... and of course any quality product is not cheap
just trying to be helpful

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Mitch, I got the paint from RW Mallon on 611 in Warminster. I know Flannery in Telford. Mallon's I knew much better as I had bought other stuff from them and they have always been helpful.
I just checked the sample of the can contents on the top of the can and it didn't get any better over night. It's a dark charcoal grey with a slight greenish cast to it. Not at all like like the color in Brent's picture This is supposed to be PPG Shop Line JE, However, It's says Dk Greyfern??? and there is a reference top FORD IN AMERICA (Where else would they be?). And there is a "revision" date of 12/9/2005. This stuff was mixed yesterday AM. This is not copra drab! At least as I know it. What's next? Where can I get a definitive sample of Copra Drab?
Terry

as i mentioned take the chip from the guide and scan it

[Mitch//pa]

dont go by the company names of paint and expect that to be correct...

by scanning it you will get a 100% match

my ford maroon came back as midnight cordovan (modern name) ppg
which was scanned from the finish guide chip and we got a 100% match

the color on the car looks perfect to me

use a place that has a good digital scanner
if you want to use flannery ill help
they are on the mark

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Terry,

Please don't give up yet. Just simple color choices.

Maybe discuss with your wife the most preferable of the "many, many" variations of Chicle & Copra, with or without correct straw wheel paint, & with or without whitewall tires.

Do you really think for a moment that Model A judges in the 50 States are concerned about who sleeps in your dog house?

Just hope this helps.

[sphanna]

I took the paint chips for Copra and Chicle Drabs from the Model A Paint and Finish Guide from any of the suppliers to O'Reilly's auto supply. They scanned them and perfectly matched the chip colors. I really like the colors on my Fordor and have fielded many complements on the color.

Steve

[pgerhardt]

I checked out Marco's "choose a color" site. It is a nicely designed site with some great photoshop work. However by its nature these photoshopped roadsters reflect the artist's interpretation of each color.

My 1930 coupe in Ditzier Chichle and Copra was of the greenish variety. Which I liked.

[BadgerA]

I too was challenged by these paint colors as the spray outs of the stated color formulas are not correct. Indeed, the vast majority of cars painted these colors are either too gray or too green. I expressed this concern to Ken Ehrenhofer. He had been working on this with his "paint guy" for years. He\we have finally come up with the right formulas for PPG concept single stage that very closely matches the paint and finish guide. I have attached a file with these formulas. I painted my Victoria accordingly and am very pleased with the results. Much better than what is generally out there. If you are thinking of trying these formulas, I would strongly suggest you have your paint supplier do some spray outs so that you can check for yourself and decide if you like them.

Cheers

[Terry, NJ]

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Thanks Mitch! It is appreciated! However, this is all past tense, the paint was ordered, mixed, and paid for. Yeah, I could wiggle out of it, but I don't like doing that. But on the other hand.. Where do I get those paint chips?
Terry

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

dont go by the company names of paint and expect that to be correct...

by scanning it you will get a 100% match

my ford maroon came back as midnight cordovan (modern name) ppg
which was scanned from the finish guide chip and we got a 100% match

the color on the car looks perfect to me

use a place that has a good digital scanner
if you want to use flannery ill help
they are on the mark

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Thanks Mitch! It is appreciated! However, this is all past tense, the paint was ordered, mixed, and paid for. Yeah, I could wiggle out of it, but I don't like doing that. But on the other hand.. Where do I get those paint chips?
Terry

here is a link to the book or your welcome to borrow mine
https://mafca.com/cart/index.php?productID=129

[Jay's Model A's]

Reference to Copra/Chickle Drab colors, please take a look at A July 10, 2012 Thread on Ford Barn and you will find , ( In my opinion) the true Copra/Chickle Drab colors...Included on that Thread is The Formulation. That I have shared with dozens of people.. If you have any questions please call me or EMAIL @ [email protected]. Thanks Jay

[Jay's Model A's]

See above...Jay

[TonyM]

I love the Chicle and Copra Drabs.

[Bob Bidonde]

I struggled with finding accurate paint formulas for Copra & Chickle Drabs for a few years, but to no avail. Having failed to get formulas for the Drabs that could be verified to be accurate by comparison to a Model A with the original colors, I did my own thing and painted my 190A with colors that I like.

With a degree of pessimism, I question the originality of this car. Does it have credentials to prove and or verify its originality? Would anyone spend $2000 on paint that looks like the colors of the car pictured on the basis of the hearsay that is has original colors?


I am open to criticism re my viewpoints above, but tell me first that reasonably accurate paint formulas with agreement by the the national judging standards committee have come from the car in the picture. Then my pessimism will become jubilation.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW: Maybe something to think about with 1930's original paint.

In the 1930's, if one would have gone to a paint store on the east coast of Maine to order a certain color of paint; then goes to a similar paint store in Arizona to order the same exact formula & color of paint; and now considering the differences between climate change, basic pigments from different areas, & varied amounts of different pigment because of human mixing error, what would be a guess as to what is the possibility of an exact match that if these two (2) formulae of paint were placed on one wall in Saint Louis Missouri where one may add different amounts of paint thinner.

Would all of the paint in all of the Ford Plants be exactly alike in 1930?

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

FWIW: Maybe something to think about with 1930's original paint.

In the 1930's, if one would have gone to a paint store on the east coast of Maine to order a certain color of paint; then goes to a similar paint store in Arizona to order the same exact formula & color of paint; and now considering the differences between climate change, basic pigments from different areas, & varied amounts of different pigment because of human mixing error, what would be a guess as to what is the possibility of an exact match that if these two (2) formulae of paint were placed on one a single wall in Saint Louis Missouri where one may add different amounts of paint thinner.

Would all of the paint in all of the Ford Plants be exactly alike in 1930?

The more you learn about Ford's practices the more you realize their capabilities for consistency. They had to be pretty darn close across the board. For nearly every model you could go to your dealer and order a replacement door "painted and trimmed". That means if you needed a new right rear door for a 155-D Town Sedan in chickle and copra with brown mohair you would order A-156705-D and specify the paint color. They had to be pretty darn close or they wouldn't bother!

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

With a degree of pessimism, I question the originality of this car. Does it have credentials to prove and or verify its originality? Would anyone spend $2000 on paint that looks like the colors of the car pictured on the basis of the hearsay that is has original colors?

It would be tough to mistake the car as anything but original! You would understand if you saw it in person.

[ericr]

gotcha but in one of the branch service letters, the branch makes it clear their preference changed to shipping body panels in primer, not color, and let the local body shop fiddle with the color. whether it was an absolutely rule, I don't recall.

[ericr]

I didn't think I could see anything on the Barn that would ever surprise me, but this thread floors me, being one the 1970s-greenish tint owners. the color I am seeing in some of these posts almost looks the Arabian Sand color.

[H. L. Chauvin]

I remember reading in the past, (I think maybe a few years ago on the other Forum), that Mr. Marco's perceptions of some of Ford's body colors came also from actual protected original Model A body parts that were not faded by the sun's ultraviolet rays, nor worn down from polishing; i.e. concealed behind upholstery or some other material.

He could possibly elaborate on same if one is searching for as close as possible to Ford's authentic colors.

[Skibb]

Terry,

Happy wife, happy life....

[bill44]

My car has both the drabs. I think it looks Ok. I can send you some other pictures if you want. Email me direct at [email protected]

[TerryH]

I thought it might be helpful to post a couple of photos of my 1930 Town Sedan, that I bought restored about 8 years ago. The gentleman that restored it had it finished with Dupont "Chroma Premier", in the late 1990's. I have seen many Chicle and Drab Town Sedans, and many are either a greyish tinge or decidedly brown. I happen to like this particular rendition, but do not know if it is any closer to the original color.

Here is the car in bright sunlight and closeup


A profile view

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi TerryH,

Very neat looking car ...... thanks for taking time to post same.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi TerryH,

Very neat looking car ...... thanks for taking time to post same.

I agree, those are beautiful colors.

[George Miller]

I like it also very nice.

[zzlegend]

Excellent Terry.

[mshmodela]

Terry, your car is awesome, great colors

[Cool Hand Lurker]

I painted a few cars in my early years and found that using different colors or shades of primer can change the color of the top coat, especially if you spray a different number of coats or thin the paint differently. And this is when the paint comes out of the same can!

[Marco L.]

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Originally Posted by BadgerA

I too was challenged by these paint colors as the spray outs of the stated color formulas are not correct. Indeed, the vast majority of cars painted these colors are either too gray or too green. I expressed this concern to Ken Ehrenhofer. He had been working on this with his "paint guy" for years. He\we have finally come up with the right formulas for PPG concept single stage that very closely matches the paint and finish guide. I have attached a file with these formulas. I painted my Victoria accordingly and am very pleased with the results. Much better than what is generally out there. If you are thinking of trying these formulas, I would strongly suggest you have your paint supplier do some spray outs so that you can check for yourself and decide if you like them.

Cheers

Hi, My name is Marco I live in California. I am currently in the middle of having a car painted and I fell in love with your cars paint. I know it's Chicle Drab and Copra Drab but I am confused by so many people saying that the colors may vary from green to brown. I already have the formula that you posted, this has been the most helpful post on the paint so far, thanks. I am hoping that you can send me or post a pic of your car in daylight to make sure that this is what I'm looking for before spending any money on paint that I might not like.

Thanks,
Marco

[ModelA29]

Cars are sensitive to color. A guy up the street was in love with Fords Springtime Yellow. It looked right on his Mustangs, OK on his 70s Ranchero but totally ruined the look of his Lincoln Continental.
All the materials have changed since the cars were first painted. Manufacturers used the same paint on different models/years and called it different names - conversely they modified the colors over the years while using the same names. Taking the MAFCA paint guide to the store and matching to their chips is probably the best bet. If their guys is good he'll be able to add a little of this or that to get it exact.

[wwirz]

My car is these colors. With a Tacoma cream pin stripe,Tacoma cream rims and wide whitewalls, you cannot beat the color combinations. Very popular color choice

[Kingo]

I really like the copra myself.

[Chris in WNC]

From my observations, there are three versions of chickle/copra repaints-
greenish, greyish and brownish.
Depends on when and where the paint was sourced, I suppose.
I prefer the brownish, which seems closest to original.

[Kingo]

My colors were matched from original paint found between panels and trim, where the sun would not have effected them, and they definitely were not brown hues. I think ford used large quantities of paint that varied in hues from batch to batch. So, whether it’s a brown, grey or green it still could be a factory hue.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Kingo

My colors were matched from original paint found between panels and trim, where the sun would not have effected them, and they definitely were not brown hues. I think ford used large quantities of paint that varied in hues from batch to batch. So, whether it’s a brown, grey or green it still could be a factory hue.

This has been discussed in the past here by ones that have researched this enough to know the facts. Ford owned a LARGE paint manufacturing operation that blended ALL their own paints used for the production of the Model-A. There are M-Specs (-Engineer's Material Specification) for each & every ingredient of each & every component that made-up every item used in the manufacturing of the Model-A. Paints were no exception, ...so to suggest there were hue differences between batch lots really is not factual. The employees in the paint laboratories (there are pictures of this lab at Benson Library) were held to strict Q/C standards. When the ingredients were ordered that made-up each of these different paints and bonderizers, those were held to strict standards also. Buyers or employees in the lab did not have the latitude to substitute ingredients or alter ratios to suit their own likes.

Furthering this mindset, because many (-i.e.: most) Ford Agencies during the Model-A era did not have Body Shop spraying capabilities, when a vehicle was damaged, a complete new piece (door, hood, deck door, fender, apron, etc.) was ordered direct from the depot already painted in the matching color. This happened because the factory applied paint matched the replacement part paint.

One other thought on this, is that many of us have seen unmolested, all-original Model-As that were painted in Copra & Chicle. All of them that I recall have ALWAYS been with brown tones. Never were they originally green. How this color went off the rails goes back to the Ditzler days when they first began offering chip books to assist restorers. Many do not realize that Ford manufactured their own paints until the mid-1930s when a Ford-vendor named Pittsburg Plate Glass (-who had purchased Ditzler Paint in the late 1920s) offered to be Ford's paint supplier. The present club's joint Paint & Refinish Guide originated as a PPG/Ditzler book. In the 1960s, Ditzler offered a paint book followed by the PPG version. Somewhere along the way, some formulas got mixed-up where the colors became greener and later when the chips showed grayer when the clubs produced it. Again, these were mistakes by the paint manufacturer long after Ford had produced the Model-A. So I tell all of this so we all understand that if being authentically correct is the goal, the correct color hue really is Brown, -and not Greenish or Grayish in color.


.
.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Damn! Ernie in Arizona

[Ron Blissit]

I painted my 1929 roadsterpicup comercial drab as it was when new. Some people think it is an ugly color.untill they see it in the sunlight