Back end of a T-5

[GB SISSON]

I am continuing to be pulled in the direction of a T5 swap into the '47 1/2 ton pickup based woodie wagon. I have read more about the engine to transmission adapter choices than I care to think about, but am working up a plan. I do not have my transmission in hand yet, but it's S10. I have seen one post that says there is a U joint back there that's the same size as our ford's so only need to shorten the shaft. I can do that, but is this U joint on a slip yoke like my '47 pu has? In other words, do I need to get that yoke along with the transmission? Sometime slip joint is in the driveshaft with a fixed yoke on transmission. Thanks in advance. GB

[40cpe]

my T5 trans from an '84 S10 has a slip yoke on the output shaft of the transmission. .

[cadillac512]

The S10 trans will have a modern type slip yoke that attaches to the driveshaft with a normal u joint. It slides into the tail housing of the trans. I'd get the yoke if you can.

[GB SISSON]

Thanks guys. Should be an easy swap compared to some I've ventured into!

[Ol' Ron]

The S-10 box is alittle on the week side, with a 4: 1 low.
Gramps

[GB SISSON]

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A 4:1 low would be fine in my particular (perculiar?)case. I creep around on this mountainside, then down a steep 1/2 mile gravel road to the 2 lane paved county road where I can finally let the old gal fly along at 35! Obviously I was heavily influenced by 'The Waltons' in my teenage years, Heck, I have owned three Model AA fords and even have a sawmill. G'nite Jim Bob, G'nite Mary Ellen, G'nite Gramps

[flatford8]

The earlier T-5’s have a tail shaft that uses a mechanical speedo. The ones from the trucks and vans have a forward shifter. The ones from Camaros and Mustangs the shifter is closer to the end of the tail-shaft. They’ve been around so stuff has been changed.
://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Borg-Warner-T5-ID-Tags.htm . .
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-links.169265/
There’s enough info in that second link to keep you the same spot for a while.......Mark

[GB SISSON]

Thanks Mark, Been reading about them for a couple of days. There are a lot of variations on that box and I spose a guy building his dream car would use one part from this and another from that and a particular gear set from another. I get that, but right now I have a problem inside my transmission, and first was never quite low enough anyhow, and it pops outa second downhill and maybe worst of all is where reverse is. Had some close calls there. For me it's an easy swap and fairly inexpensive.The one I'm attempting to pick up is from a '93 S10 with a 2.8 V6 so it might not have the super low 4:1 like the bangers had.

[38bill]

The '93 T5 from an S10 will use a electronic speedometer. If you don't need one on the island its no big deal and you could always use the GPS on your cell phone.

[GB SISSON]

Thanks Bill, I've taken it to the mainland twice and one time I even got on interstate 5 for an hour. I used my cellphone speedometer ap and I was doing a little over 60! I'm pretty used bo not having a working speedometer, so no big deal.

[GB SISSON]

I posted about picking up this T5 on my engine thread and realized it afterwards. As much as I ramble and wander on my threads, I feel I should be better at staying somewhere around the subject at hand, like at least posting on this transmission related thread. We drove up to the small dairy farming town of Sumas Washington yesterday and picked up this transmission after agonizing for three months about how the get the truck based woodie back on the road for the summer. Now it's almost upon us. Anyhow I got sidetracked this morning rambling about granny low etc, as usual and didn't post these. Pics. Not really that noteworthy, just a gearbox from some outdated pickup, but my wife came with me and we made an outing of it. The sellers were a nice young couple with a 97 acre farm and we spent an hour visiting in the sun. It was a very beautiful drive and I think we found a nice T-5 that will be a good gear box for our beloved wagon.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

I posted about picking up this T5 on my engine thread and realized it afterwards. As much as I ramble and wander on my threads, I feel I should be better at staying somewhere around the subject at hand, like at least posting on this transmission related thread. We drove up to the small dairy farming town of Sumas Washington yesterday and picked up this transmission after agonizing for three months about how the get the truck based woodie back on the road for the summer. Now it's almost upon us. Anyhow I got sidetracked this morning rambling about granny low etc, as usual and didn't post these. Pics. Not really that noteworthy, just a gearbox from some outdated pickup, but my wife came with me and we made an outing of it. The sellers were a nice young couple with a 97 acre farm and we spent an hour visiting in the sun. It was a very beautiful drive and I think we found a nice T-5 that will be a good gear box for our beloved wagon.

[cas3]

Thats a big hit n miss engine there GB, what is it?

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by cas3

Thats a big hit n miss engine there GB, what is it?

That, my friend is my 1912 8hp Stover gas engine. It was given to me 36 years ago by an island family. Head had been pulled years earlier and was long gone, Every moving part was completely seized. Other than that it was remarlably intact and complete. I made a pattern for a new head on my wood lathe from pictures in an old book. Most of it was obvious because of what was still there. Head studs told head thickness, push rod and rocker arm showed dimensions and placement of the tower for the rocker, placement of valves etc. The intake valve has no rocker as it is just atmospheric with a light spring. Vacuum pulls it open on intake stroke. I started with freeing the 6" piston. I filled the water hopper with charcoal briquets, siliconed a 6" stove pipe elbow into the bore and filled it to the top with diesel fuel. All that was needed was a BFH for some motivation. Finding nothing suitable at hand I decided to loosen the two 5/8 bolts on the big end of the connecting rod til there was about a 3/4" gap. Instead of a poured bearing this rod has a beautifully machined bronze 'boxing'. The flywheels together weigh over 1000 lbs and made short work of freeing the piston. I honed and ordered some rings from Hit n Miss Enterprises in Ohio. Well, here I go on another sideways ramble. The engine has been stored for the last 12 years at the show grounds in Lynden and we haul it out and run it every August at ther big show. Storage situation changed last year so I brought it home and kept it at a buddy's giant shop until last week when I finished a ten day cleanup and organizing of my shop. Now I have a nice spot for it with the exhaust out through a hole in the wall. If you'd likme to see it run I have a link to a video some show-goer took of it and posted on youtube. I had no idea it was on youtube until I stumbled onto this video one day.
Well I just used up my afternoon coffee break talking about the engine instead of the adapter plate I'm making for a hogshead/T-5. I am using the same centering trick that I used on my NP 435 project. In researching home built plates I came across a great thread on the barn from maybe 2014, in which J Seerey carefully explains why the method I thought I discovered last month is so, in his words 'foolproof'. Now I'm in a complete dither on this thing and a contractor is showing up in 5 minutes about the project I'm sposed to be working on. Sucks to be him. Gotta run https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot5E...BnYXMgZW5naW5l

[flatford8]

Ya done good ‘Ol Boy…..Mark
I’ve always loved the sound of a Hit&Miss engine running……very relaxing…. Now that I have some time…..I gotta start looking for one….

[cas3]

yeah, 8hp is a big one. I've had a couple of those plain jane IH square looking things, and a 1 1/2 hp fairbanks, but never put to use. Always wanted to get a line shaft set up, had all the clutches and mounts etc, never got it up and sadly it was another pile at my auction that nobody knew or cared what it all was. Scrap man got it for less than I payed decades ago. GB you are an inspiration for us all with your constant activity, wide spread skill and interest. Carry on my friend, and keep us posted!

[GB SISSON]

Thanks guys. I have some nice scraps of 1/2" aluminum plate that I will double up for this 1" adapter. I will pin them together with some 1/4-20s at first, then when installed there will be four 7/16" bolts and four 1/2" bolts clamping them together I don't think they'll slide'. Tomorrow I REALLY have to assemble those cabinet boxes, and then on the weekend I will get back to drilling holes. In working with Ford's cast iron hogshead assembly I have found that it's a beautifully made assembly and besides, I have 2 or 3 of them just sitting here collecting dust. They just kinda pulled me in. Cast iron has a way of doing that. I'll get some pictures on Saturday.

[corvette8n]

My Uncle had a small I-H hit and miss bolted to his back porch. Once a year we’d get to visit and he would start it up and let it run a few minutes, I think that’s how I got to be a gear head.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by corvette8n

My Uncle had a small I-H hit and miss bolted to his back porch. Once a year we’d get to visit and he would start it up and let it run a few minutes, I think that’s how I got to be a gear head.

There are many paths to becoming a gearhead, but that's one of the better ones for sure. An old gas engine can provide many hours of free therapy.

[Tim Ayers]

Love the H&M motor talk. Yep, 8HP is a big one for sure.

Please post pictures of your T5 adaptor plate one finished.

[jeepguy1948]

There were a few variations in the gear ratios depending on what engine it was behind (4 or 6 cylinder or Camaro etc.) You said that it is from a V6 truck so it will not have that low first gear but it will have a higher overdrive ratio. To be honest, I’m not sure that that is the best T5 for you but of course I don’t know that for certain. It is easy to determine the 1st gear ratio that is in your truck now and that would at least give you a base line, I doubt that you would want a 1st gear that is higher than what you have now. There should be a tag on the rear housing lower left bolt. You can easily find the charts online to tell you what you have. There are numbers on the case that would appear to be the same as tag numbers but don’t be fooled, they don’t. The case numbers mean nothing useful to us. The T 5 was used in many, many vehicles including Mustangs and Cameros. What makes the specific S-10 attractive is that the shifter is mounted near the middle of the transmission but every other application has the shifter at the very back of the transmission which puts the shifter under the seat on most vintage vehicles. FWIW the tail housings/shift towers can be swapped around so it is possible to use a T-5 from another application and swap on an S-10 tail housing. In addition to determining the 1st gear ratio in your truck you can figure out the T-5 ratios as well if the tag is missing. Maybe something here will help. I live in Edmonds and have been to Orcas many times. It’s a wonderful place and if you can earn a living on the island or are retired you are very fortunate indeed.

[jeepguy1948]

I’m pretty sure I can see that the tag is indeed in place on the lower left corner. Any T-5 is plenty stout for your application, it’s all about gearing. I have a T-5 with Camaro V8 gears in it but it’s had an S-10 tail shaft/shift tower swapped on to it.

[GB SISSON]

Rotating and counting in first gear shows a bit over 4 revolutions, thus the 4.03 . That's what I wanted really all along was a lower first. Then my 3 speed stock trans started making awful noises one day so time for a repair or swap. The T5 won out. Had yet another contractor stop by today to leave some lumber for an upcoming project that I agreed to last month and yikes, we have grandkids for the weekend and yardwork that would make your head spin. I oughta be ordering up one of them 'store bought' T-5 adapters' before I even start. Like I don't have enough to do already. Sheesh. Afternoon break over again so soon. And Jeepguy I'ved been here 45 years and self employed for 40 of them. And yes I made a pretty good living here, the money was marginal but the Living has indeed been great.

[jeepguy1948]

Yes, for your application I think that the lower gear is best. Just for fun you should de-code that tag. You might learn something more!

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by jeepguy1948

Yes, for your application I think that the lower gear is best. Just for fun you should de-code that tag. You might learn something more!

I haven't found a list with these kind of numbers. Just the 1542-###
Can you link me to a decoder? Do I need a secret decoder ring? You DID say that this was for fun. Maybe I should go down to the shop and clean it off and get a new picture....

[GB SISSON]

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This may be better.

[jeepguy1948]

The important number is 1352-234 it comes up as GM 1993 2.8L (which is the 4 Banger) strangely the ratio information is blank, I’ve never encountered that before. You want to google “T5 transmission BritishV8” site

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by jeepguy1948

The important number is 1352-234 it comes up as GM 1993 2.8L (which is the 4 Banger) strangely the ratio information is blank, I’ve never encountered that before. You want to google “T5 transmission BritishV8” site

[GB SISSON]

Pete, now I can read that number! And jeepguy I had come across the British site a few times in my searches based on the seven digit number you mentioned and saw that empty space below. That's ok, it has a low gear I like and it's WC and gm bolt pattern and it rolls smoothly in all gears. I have great expectations.

[cadillac512]

The 2.8 in '93 was actually a V6, not a 4 cyl...the 4 was a 2.5. The trans should work well for this application I think.

[jeepguy1948]

Hmmm, there’s always something to get wrong but 2.8 is still a small motor. Regardless, I too think it’s the best unit for you. 4.03 was the lowest 1st gear ever available in a T-5 So you couldn’t have got a better unit. I will go out on a limb and say that it also probably had the lower of the (3) overdrive’s at .86 and that’s good too although I expect that won’t see much use on the island LoL. Now hurry up and get it installed so we can find out! Is that truck a closed driveline? I’m thinking that if it’s a tonner it might be open (which makes it easier to do the swap).

[GB SISSON]

Yes, open driveline 1/2 ton 1947. It's a pickup that I sawed off at the windshield and modified a few years back. It's 6 1/2' pickup box ended up on the foyota. Got in a good 1/2 day on my 'A-dapt kit' and then it was time to build giant styrofoam gliders with the grandkids.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Yes, open driveline 1/2 ton 1947. It's a pickup that I sawed off at the windshield and modified a few years back. It's 6 1/2' pickup box ended up on the foyota. Got in a good 1/2 day on my 'A-dapt kit' and then it was time to build giant styrofoam gliders with the grandkids.

[GB SISSON]

Once again Pete thanks for helping out with the large print version of the barn. Thought I'd post some pics of progress on the adapter plate. When I picked up this S 10 T5, the seller offered me the bellhousing, clutch assembly etc so I took it all. Good thing because the greasy old GM bellhousing gave me a good idea. What you see here is a rough out of the pilot hole to accept the bearing retainer on the chev version of the T5. This hole was sawn inside of the scribed line representing the S 10's bearing retainer. I them mounted this 1/2" plate onto the back side of the chev bellhousing. Using a follower router bit which is 1/2" dia with a 1/2" bearing on the bottom, I easily replicated the pilot hole needed to press over the machined outer flange of the T5's retainer. This is a very snug fit, in fact I had to put a small chamfer on the back side before I could wiggle and twist it home.
Now keep in mind this plate will be two pieces of 1/2" aluminum stacked upon each other. The next step after those pictured was to create a 2 3/4" hole in the same location on the second plate. This is to allow the gm bearing retainer to poke through, leaving a solid base to tap and bolt our FH Ford bearing retainer to. Since these photos were taken, I have through bolted the two plates with 8 bolts and a generous slather of JB Weld between them. They are now one plate with a nice recess in the back. I will leave it here although I got pretty far along yesterday but no photos yet. Once again I cannot stress enough how important it is to this method that out FH V8 bearing retainer is a snug fit over the top of the one of the S 10. The Ford style T5 and the GM style T5 have different OD on the throw out bearing sleeve area, but the difference is made up by the spiral grooves at the base. They both work very well at indexing the T5 to the hogshead.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Thought I'd post some pics of progress on the adapter plate.

[flatford8]

When you’re done..it’s gonna look like the one I bought…..I think you’re gonna like it!!…Mark

[TomT/Williamsburg]

In my first T5 swap 1st gear was a 4.03/8 - I just shifted out of it sooner.

[GB SISSON]

Sheesh, everything takes a lot longer than it used to. Can't read the numbers on my drill bits or taps, where did I set that flange down?, I bought coarse thread 7/16 bolts the other day and fine thread nuts. I did manage to bring a half cord of firewood up from the lower property without misplacing any, but now I need to sit down and rest. Maybe I'll just lay on the couch and read my book.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by flatford8

When you’re done..it’s gonna look like the one I bought…..I think you’re gonna like it!!…Mark

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Bottom line it wakes up a flathead let me tell you …..

[TomT/Williamsburg]

In doing some research, it says that the 234 replaces the 232 which
Has tge following gears in it …..

3.70 3.97 2.34 1.48 1.00 0.72
R. 1st. 2nd. 3rd. 4th. 5th

Now that may mean the case but if 5th is that ratio, you will need 3:78 or lower rear gear ..

[cas3]

I've always said " they can put a man on the moon, but they can't mark a drill bit so anyone can read it "

[Als48]

GB, Great thinking on the indexing method for your adapter plate. I can see the value of that, by centering the transmission with respect to the engine.

Al H

[GB SISSON]

I thank you all for the encouragement I'm finding here. I have learned a lot in this process so far and will continue to do so as I bring this adventure to a conclusion. The accidental fit between these two bearing retainers is not just of great importance, it is in fact EVERYTHING. Unfortunately there are two common sizes of bearing retainer with the T5, and likely more. For now I will call the two I know about Ford and GM. Six weeks ago I mocked up a plate for adapting an NP 435 granny llow four speed from a ford truck onto our hogshead.. When it came to increasing the NP's bearing retainer 'snout' to accept our TOB assembly I picked up the retainer from the hogs head and tried to slide it over the snout. Wouldn't go over. I looked inside of the flange end and see a machined spiral for oil control. This spiral area was machined to be a tighter fit on the transmission shaft, in other words the short spiral area has a smaller I.D, than the reamainder of the piece. I then turned the Flathead bearing retainer around and introduced the other end onto the NP's snout, It was really tight but I see it looks promising. I then cleaned out the hardened grease and low and behold, with light twisting and tapping the two mated perfectly with the flanges at opposite ends. I then used a die grinder to shave out the spiral as I didn't have a boring bar for my lathe. This allowed me to twist the FH bearing retainer over the NP's until it's flange bottomed out on the heads of the four 5/16 cap screws holding it to the transmission. Now these two machined flanges were about 1/2" apart. At this point both flanges are indexed to each other by Borg Warner and their machinery. I knew I was onto something.If a person were using a T5 with the later 'Ford pattern' this would be 'all she wrote'.... Unfortunatly mine is a GM snout and slightly smaller. Now that machined spiral comes into play. It is just a bit loose, but nicely machined so a sleeve is in order. I put one wrap of electrical tape and the spiral wouldn't go. Blue masking tape yes. This is not a wear area, so a sleeve won't be subject to stress or wear. I see SKF makes a speedi sleeve that will tap on but they don't give the O.D so hopefully that should work. Honing the spiral should be easy if needed. My lathe came with a huge assortment of adjustable reamers and I have a sunnen hone that I inherited from a friend, but I bet it's gonna be close right from SKF.
This could be my longest post ever, but I will close with this final thought. That nicely round 'machined' center hole I made with my router using the t5's greasy bellhousing as a template, which btw was an excellent fit, was counter productive to this project. The unhindered mating of the two flanges is the only important thing here. The 1" aluminum spacer is just that... A spacer. All of the drilled holes involved on both sides are for clamping purposes only. Case in point, the NP's four bolts to it's BH were 3/8" bolts in 1/2" holes. Most of the FH holes have 1/16" clearance. My super tight 'counterbore' that fits the t5's flange OD so well fights me when drilling and threading my clamping bolt holes. It would have been better to just jigsaw the hole on the outside of my scribed line so it wouldn't impart side stress that can interfere with the excellent mating of the two critical parts. Another way to put that would be to say the 1" spacer plate needs room to move around a bit so that it's many drilled, and or tapped holes do not not interfere with the good alignment afforder by the two flanges. Once bolted up snug on the bench I can see drilling and inserting some dowel pins or a couple of threaded indexing bolts to insure against any shifting of plate under extreme conditions. Last week I googled 'making a plate for a T-5 to a flathead V8' and found that in a thread here at fordbarn on that subject, the late, great J Seerey had discovered the same thing ten years earlier, and was a strong advocate of this type of plate, so I won't call this my idea. You still awake?

[jeepguy1948]

I believe that if you go to the H.A.M.B. Site and check parts for sale you will find at least one adapter plate for sale, maybe more that one.

[jeepguy1948]

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If you go to the Early V8 parts for sale here the The Barn you will find that Krylon 32 (Gary @ Cornhusker) in Nebraska sells exactly what you need. He’s a great guy to deal with. I have bought quite a lot from him with 100% satisfaction. Quality parts all the way. Kit is $650 and I would assume well worth it but if you are trying to do it yourself without buying a kit then obviously it’s not for you. I would be $1 that Gary is reading this LoL.

[GB SISSON]

Gary and I have discussed his kit by way of PM a couple of times. If I were to buy a kit, it would be from him without a doubt. But somehow, against all better judgement and practical reasoning I decided to make this thing myself. I have now drilled and tapped the four 1/2" bolts that hold the hogs head to the 1"plate. That was the last major operation involved and frankly I was a bit nervous about it. I made a stepped drill guide to center the 17/64" drill bit into the factory clearanced holes in the hogs head and drilled them with it's bearing retainer securly bolted in plate as a locater. After drilling the pilot I put my tap into the drill press and rotated the chuck with a steel rod by hand to start the tap straight and cut about 5 threads in. I DID keep my super snug recess intact for a tight fit on the T5's retainer as added insurance. So far, I am quite happy with how it has come out even though it makes little sense. Heck, some folks train for a year and spend a month to climb a mountain "Because it was there". How much more ridiculous is that?

[cadillac512]

"But somehow, against all better judgement and practical reasoning I decided to make this thing myself."


And that is exactly what we do. Sometimes it works too! Your process and execution sound just fine...it's going to work well and you get to feel the sense of accomplishment.

[GB SISSON]

20 years ago I was talking to an 'old guy' (he was 63 then) who moved to the island with 2 of his siblings from their farm in Michigan. All of them have good stories and Rex mentioned how his dad had built an adapter plate from stuff around the farm to install a mitsubushi diesel into his one year old '79 F250. Last week I ran into Rex at the ferry landing on our way home from picking up the T5 and asked him about the swap. He isn't like me, he's very quiet and unasuming, but he told me his dad drove that truck until it was wore out and that included their share of visits from Michigan to Orcas Island through the years. I always marveled at a farmer doing a job like that with what was at hand, and not just to be cool, but to save money on fuel.Rex was surprised that I remembered the story, but it was etched on there pretty good. Oh, my 8rt camshaft in cosmoline arrived today. Holy cow, it's a nice piece. Details will follow.

[cas3]

More off topic rambling from cas3 here...A big farmer near me went to Brazil in the 80's to look at buying farm land. They wanted to rent a four wheel drive rig as they knew they would be in rough country. What they got was a Ford 1/2 ton with a Ford diesel tractor motor made from the factory. What a wonderful thing it was, but we can't have one here.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by cas3

More off topic rambling from cas3 here...A big farmer near me went to Brazil in the 80's to look at buying farm land. They wanted to rent a four wheel drive rig as they knew they would be in rough country. What they got was a Ford 1/2 ton with a Ford diesel tractor motor made from the factory. What a wonderful thing it was, but we can't have one here.

Drool... (I'm trying to keep my word count to 25 words or less after that novel above)

[GB SISSON]

It is coming together. I check that the two bearing retainers are still concentric and no side loading has occured. Should have new transmission seals tomorrow.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

It is coming together. I check that the two bearing retainers are still concentric and no side loading has occured. Should have new transmission seals tomorrow.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Looking good!

[flatford8]

You got yourself a work of art there mistah…….Mark

[GB SISSON]

Thank you Mahk.

[GB SISSON]

I know this thread is supposed to be about the slip joint at the back end, but I'm pretty much done with the adapter so I thought I'd post up what I have so far. I have an old style T-9 with the cast in bell alongside on the floor to get the length of the shaft components the same. I still need to shorten the pilot tip to mimic the T-9's.
I have some good advice for anybody considering a T-5 swap behind their flathead V8. Get in touch with Gary (krylon 32) at Cornhuskers and order up one of his kits I have a lot of confidence in my conversion now that I've worried my way through it, but sheesh, what a lotta work. But like Rex's dad I can say "Oh yeah... I just threw together a plate outa scrap I had around layin' around and stuck a 5 spd overdrive trans onto the ol' flatty". So much for 25 words or less.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Gary is a great guy and I have ordered T-5 stuff from him over the years. Met him at Bonneville in ‘13 when I rolled with the Rolling Bones out there in my roadster (avatar). It was a fun time ….

[GB SISSON]

Thanks Tom, and yes I could tell it wasn't Gary's first rodeo with the T-5. I meant to post these recent pictures up on post #57, but now I see I forgot.

[Scotty's 52 F3]

Nice job. I like your "I can do this" style. Looking forward to the finished product.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Thanks Tom, and yes I could tell it wasn't Gary's first rodeo with the T-5. I meant to post these recent pictures up on post #57, but now I see I forgot.

[38bill]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Thanks Tom, and yes I could tell it wasn't Gary's first rodeo with the T-5. I meant to post these recent pictures up on post #57, but now I see I forgot.

Yup, I purchased my T5 conversion kit from Gary back in '03.