New Member---'28 Model A Mods----help!

[Stevie649]

Hey all, new member here.
I am looking to chat with someone about a few mods that were done on an early 1928 Ford Model A. Mostly electrical stuff. The car was restored in the late 80's by my father so i would think these mods were fairly common. Unfortunately he is no longer with us to ask so any help from someone who would be willing to help would be awesome.

[McMimmcs]

Welcome to the Barn. This place is full of experts ( not me )! Ask away and the answers will soon follow! Add photos where possible !

[Chuck Dempsey]

Indeed, welcome....

[700rpm]

Seek, and ye shall find.
Ask, and the door will be opened.

[Gene F]

Stevie, I have March 1928. Perhaps I can help. What is on your mind? Does the car even still have the red dished steering wheel on it?

[tudor 28]

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Another early '28 good. I have an early '28 Tudor. So any questions just ask. You'll discover many early car differences with time. Believe me I did. They can very a lot from month to month when the car was built.

[Bob C]

Welcome, we can't answer until we know what the questions are.

[burner31]

Welcome

Early 1928 Model A's had a particular name attached to them...but for the life of me I can't remember it now.
It's because more then a few of the early A's got some left over model T parts on them.

[bob from red oak]

Welcome Stevie649. I have found this forum to be extremely helpful for one new to Model As. It has also been helpful to find someone local such as a friend or a club to serve as a mentor.

[Stevie649]

Thanks for all the replies. The car is serial number A12XXX and the engine is the same number CA12XXX. Does that make it Canadian?
It was converted to a 12VDC system. I am unsure if it is a negative ground but judging by the red starter wire i am guessing that it is. Anyways here are a few pictures of it.


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[Badpuppy]

Generator has been replaced with an alternator and external regulator (the blue can on the firewall). Starter also has been replaced and solenoid added. Parts could have come from an early Mustang or Falcon donor car.

The electrical system is undoubtedly now 12V negative ground.

The perpetrator knew what he was doing.

[Gene F]

Badpuppy is right. In the mind of some people these are enhancements. I'm guessing the car is driveable?

[Gene F]

Stevie, did anyone explain double clutching the transmission for the 2 -3 upshift, and stopping the car before downshifting?

[Stevie649]

The car was drivable when it was parked where it currently sits around 20 years ago. Im getting new Universal 21" tires put on it, as it requires a safety check to get license plates for it.

I have noticed that there is some wiring unhooked, its the green wire from the regulator and a random yellow wire from the firewall TB. There must have been some electrical issues that were being troubleshot.

Im going to have a look at some early mustang's wiring diagrams to see if i can make up a wiring diagram for this car.

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[Stevie649]

Hi Gene,
I have not been able to drive it yet. It does sound like ill have to learn a few things about how to operate it tho...

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[katy]

That's a typical Ford 12V electronic voltage regulator.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...iuqISRTQ%3D%3D

[Bob C]

That is an early one I see it has the hand brake on the left side and the
single braking system. One odd thing is the seven tooth steering box with
a 1930-31 steering wheel.

[Stevie649]

Thanks for the info Bob,

That brings up another question regarding the single point braking system. I've read that there are certain wheels that were used on the early cars that fit the hubs correctly without having to use a spacer.
Im wondering if these are correct for that earlier design?

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[nkaminar]

I will take on the wheel issue. If you can thread the nuts on more than a few turns then the wheels are probably correct. If newer hubs were put on the car then the older wheels will not sit correctly and there will be a gap where the wheel should contact the drum on the outside diameter of the inner part where the spokes attach. Spacers are only needed when later than 48 wheels are put on a Model A.

[nkaminar]

Regarding the steering wheel: Later 2 tooth steering boxes were sometimes put on early cars. The later steering boxes have a different attachment for the steering wheel. I think some red steering wheels were made to fit later boxes and it looks like there may be one in a plastic bag.

Regarding the voltage regulator: I am surprised to see it there because alternators usually have internal voltage regulators. That may explain the disconnected wire.

Regarding the wiring: Rip everything out and start over. You can buy old looking wires of different gauges and colors from https://restorationstuff.com/

[woodiewagon46]

The CA before the numerals does indicate a Canadian car. If I was you I would purchase a copy of the Model A Judging Standards, available from the Model A Restorers Club. It's filled with facts and figures and answers just about any question you could want answered. Something does not look right with the later steering wheel on an early vehicle. All 1928 cars had a reddish brown steering wheel that was phased out in March of '29. The early wheels were splined and the '30-'31 wheel was tapered and keyed. The early, left hand emergency brake with the squeeze type grip was discontinued in June of 1928 so your car is earlier than that date. The 2 tooth steering column did not appear until February of 1929. On Canadian cars the date of manufacture was usually stamped on the left firewall until approximately September of 1928. If you give me the engine number I can give you a production date.

[Gary Karr]

The rear drum that you have pictured is an early '28 single brake drum and unfortunately will not fit the wheel(s) that you have pictured. As mentioned above, the edge of the wheel hub must seat completely against the drum otherwise it will most likely develop cracks around the lug holes from undue stress and poor fit.

[jayvee34]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

Seek, and ye shall find.
Ask, and the door will be opened.

Ask and you shall receive, knock and the door will be opened unto you.
Although I do like what you said.

[nkaminar]

Gary Karr, The wheels look to me to be the early type, but Stevie will have to put them on the car to be sure. I could be wrong. I was wrong once before, in 1956.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by jayvee34

Ask and you shall receive, knock and the door will be opened unto you.
Although I do like what you said.

Thanks. I was trying to recall something my great aunt said to me about 60 years ago. Your quote is closer to what I remember. Matthew seems to have had many translators and variations on his wisdom.

[700rpm]

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Originally Posted by nkaminar

Regarding the steering wheel: Later 2 tooth steering boxes were sometimes put on early cars. The later steering boxes have a different attachment for the steering wheel. I think some red steering wheels were made to fit later boxes and it looks like there may be one in a plastic bag.

Regarding the voltage regulator: I am surprised to see it there because alternators usually have internal voltage regulators. That may explain the disconnected wire.

Regarding the wiring: Rip everything out and start over. You can buy old looking wires of different gauges and colors from https://restorationstuff.com/

I would go one step further: rip out anything that is not original and put it back to stock. Then all restoration questions can be addressed by referring to Model A Ford specs.

[Stevie649]

Ill mount up the wheels and see how they fit and also check the firewall for a stamped serial number.
I would like to bring it back to stock specs eventually and think a re-wire would be a good thing also.
Does anyone know of a place in Canada that sells reproduction early 1928 Model A parts? Or are most parts found on classified ads?



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[700rpm]

There are several Model A merchants who offer good repro parts. Snyders, Brattons, Mikes are three, but not all. They have web sites. These are US stores, of course. i don’t know about Canadian suppliers. Almost all repro parts come from the same manufacturers.

[nkaminar]

Quick Google search found this: https://www.oldcarcentre.com/catalogs/cat_modela.pdf

Canada's Largest Stocking Street Rod Shop, Vintage Ford, Chevy Parts - Classifieds, Located in Langley B.C. Canada. ... Parts Dealer For... Street Rods; Ford Model 'A'; Ford Cars 1932-72; Ford Pickups 1909-66. Square Body Pickups 1974-91; Chevy ... Print Catalogues are available for purchase: Catalogs: $5.00 each ...

Start out by buying some books.

[katy]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Regarding the voltage regulator: I am surprised to see it there because alternators usually have internal voltage regulators.

The external regulators were used for years before the internal regulators were developed.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Stevie649

Does anyone know of a place in Canada that sells reproduction early 1928 Model A parts?

There's also: George Moir Antique Auto parts in Stony Plain Alberta

I would suspect that there's also 1 or more suppliers in southern Ontario

[dwines]

There’s Twiss in Milton and Dixie in Kitchener.
Also check out Model A Owners Club Inc. I think there are 6 Ontario chapters.

[Badpuppy]

There are good arguments for going with 12V and for negative ground. Consider the expense of converting everything back before you decide.

In the meantime, tape off the bare wire ends until you find out where they go and put a grommet in the firewall where the solenoid wires pass through. Unfused battery is dangerous when the insulation chafes through.

Alternators with internal regulators are GM, used as well by all their competitors, including Ford, for a lot of years.

[katy]

Some, maybe all, of the newer cars have the VR as part of the ECM or PCM (on-board computers)

[Stevie649]

Thanks for all the great information regarding this car. My focus right now is to just get it back on road and making it safe to drive (wiring, tyres). In time i would like to bring it back to stock but realize it will take time/money and like most of us those are the two things hardest to come by.


I fit the wheels on this morning. There is no gap between the hub and the drum and I have lots of threads showing.
I cant however find a stamped SN on the forward firewall.


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[springerpete]

Stevie: Check on the internet for Model A Ford Club of Canada. Hopefully there will be a club or some club members in your area who can help get you going. Bill

[burner31]

Originally Posted by burner31

Welcome

Early 1928 Model A's had a particular name attached to them...but for the life of me I can't remember it now.
It's because more then a few of the early A's got some left over model T parts on them.

AR
1928 Ford Model A AR...that's what it was...finally came to me

[katy]

To me it looks like there is only part of the stud protruding through the wheel.

Measure how much of the stud is protruding and then measure the length of the stud. That will tell you if the inner portion of the wheel is mating up to the hub.

[katy]

Originally Posted by springerpete

Check on the internet for Model A Ford Club of Canada.

Bill, thanks for that. It's the first time that I heard there was a national club in Canada, and I've lived here all my life (don't ask)

[nkaminar]

The older style wheels are slightly dished near the outer diameter of the hub. The picture shows that the wheels have this dish so I would conclude that the wheels are the older style. If the brake drums were the newer style and the older wheels were mounted on them there would be a gap. So I think you are good to go on the wheels. This subject is covered on page 328 of the "Model A Ford Service Bulletins Complete" book (March 1929 bulletin).

[Randy in ca]

Here's a link to the serial number information (Canadian included) on Vince Falter's website. I get May 1928 for your's.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABenginenumbers.htm#C5

[Stevie649]

Hello all,

Thanks for all the info on the Model A. Things have been going well. Im just waiting for some new tires to arrive.

A local ad came up in my area for wheels. I figure ill ask the experts if they are still willing to help. Will these work for an early 1928? Apart from the color they look decent


Cheers!





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[nkaminar]

Carefully compare the wheels that are for sale with the ones on your car. If I remember correctly, the ones on the car are correct for the drums. Early in 1928 there was a change in the drums and wheels and the later wheels will not work on the early drums. The original wheels can be sand blasted, any bent spokes straightened and then they can be powder coated.

Glad to hear things are going well. What wiring changes have you made?

[juke joint johnny]

You have a very early 28 car there ,with the single rear brake system .that requires the early type AR wheel

Katy has it right there is very little stud protruding thru the wheel in your picture that is because it is the early brake drum and that is a later wheel which is not correct for that drum
Often the 28-29's have a mixture of 21" wheels fitted which is dangerous,
The best way to verify what wheels and brake drums you have is to post pictures of the 4 brake drums and the hub area of the 5 wheels
Don't waste your money buying more wheels till you can distinguish between the 2 types of 21" Model A wheels

This is all explained in the Model A Ford Service bulletins book, available from the vendors. Lot's of info in there and worth buying

[w.michael]

Mr. Karr is the expert on matters relating to early '28's. Believe what he said in Post # 22 above. The wheel you have pictured in Post # 35 is a late 1928 through 1929 wheel, and will NOT fit your early '28 hubs properly. I cannot tell from the picture of the wheels that are "for sale" whether they are early or later wheels.

The center hub of the early '28 wheels have a hub flange that measures 1 3/16 inches. The center hub of the later '28 through '29 wheels have a hub flange that measure
1 3/8 inches. (See RG & JS page 22-1.) Once you see the two styles side by side, you will be able to recognize the difference. I'm sorry that I cannot post photos. Can someone please take pictures of an early wheel and a later wheel, with a close up of the front side of the center hub flange, and post them here?

In another matter, you have the correct oil dipstick for the early '28, which is different from all the later A's. You need to insert BOTH ends of the loop into the dipstick hole. Your engine photo shows one side of the loop not inserted. Both ends in the hole will reduce the amount of oil thrown out, and will stop the dipstick at the proper depth to give an accurate oil level reading.

W. Michael

[Stevie649]

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Thanks for all the awesome help with this car.

Is there anywhere that reproduces the AR style wheels? Or is the second hand market the only way to find them?

I have some other 21" wheels up in a barn that are in rough shape. Im pretty sure they came on the car when it arrived.

Ill bring them down to compare with the ones i currently have on the car.


As for electrical side, i've just been tracing wiring to get an idea what was all done and repairing where needed.

Cheers!







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[emf]

found this wheel on ebay. Good Luck...


https://www.ebay.com/itm/25508062293...xhDUPS&vxp=mtr

[Stevie649]

I found the old wheels and put them on the car.
I can clearly see the difference now between the two different types of 21" model A wheels.

It looks like i have 1 decent AR wheel so ill be on the look out for a few more.

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[dlshady]

Originally Posted by Stevie649

I found the old wheels and put them on the car.
I can clearly see the difference now between the two different types of 21" model A wheels.

It looks like i have 1 decent AR wheel so ill be on the look out for a few more.

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Look at the shape of the center hub where the long spokes attach and see the difference in profiles. That's the quickest way to ID an early 28 wheel from a later one. The early wheel looks similar to a "T" wheel in that area. I have pictures showing the differences on my home computer and will try to remember to post them when I get home this evening.

[katy]

It looks like a big long crack in that wheel. (Post # 49)

[flybob08]

Can someone post pictures of both type of wheels as I am begining to question if I have the correct wheels

Thanks

[dlshady]

Here's a set of photos that will hopefully make ID'ing a 21" wheel easier. The orange wheel is Model T, the bare metal wheel is an early 28 and the red oxide primer wheel is late 28 and 29. The quickest way to ID an early 28 wheel is to look at the shape of the area on the center hub where the long spokes attach.

[Stevie649]

Thanks for that @dlshady

Next up for me is figuring out how a 1930ish steering wheel is mounted to a 7 tooth steering box

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[dlshady]

Someone may correct me but I'm pretty sure that 7 tooth boxes were used on into early 1930 production but they weren't very common at all, so I'd venture to guess that's what you've got. Either that, or some resourceful farmer has grafted the lower half of a 7 tooth shaft to the upper half of a 2 tooth shaft.

Take a photo of the quadrant areas around the spark and throttle levers and post it up. I suspect they look like standard the 30/31 style.

[Stevie649]

Here are a couple pictures of the areas

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[jrelliott]

I have a 9/11/'28 Fordor. Some early alternators had an external regulator, so it may be correct. Have changed things so my A is 12V negative ground with a Powerhouse generator. If you send me questions, will try to answer them. I did most of the restoration myself except for engine rebuild, painting and machine work on items I did not have the tools. My email is [email protected]

[dlshady]

In regards to the steering wheel, that's obviously a splined steering shaft so it's anyone's guess as to how they managed to get a steering wheel with a tapered hole to fit onto that, unless someone did some creative file work or just outright forced it on. It would be interesting to pull the wheel and see exactly how they accomplished that feat.

[Stevie649]

Found some misc. parts today for the Model A. Can anyone identify what this little box is? Unsure if it was even for the Model A...Thanks!

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[katy]

I would suspect that it's an on-off switch with a rheostat to control the speed of a heater fan motor. Aftermarket.

[Stevie649]

Thanks Katy,
I figured it would be something like that. I am probably going to make it into a guitar pedal. Its a perfect size for that

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[Ivan in southeast va.]

Cool!

[Stevie649]

Thanks Ivan! I think you just gave me an idea of what to build with it. In memory of the master EVH, Phase 90 pedal!

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[Ivan in southeast va.]

Awesome!!!