Best spring perches removal?

[28fordroadster]

Is there a way without useing a torch?

[Pete]

Never a torch.
Use a press.

[700rpm]

A torch can weaken the axle. Pete is correct.

[Synchro909]

A torch is OK if you know how to use it. The flame must be HOT and concentrated. Apply briefly to one side only while the perch is in the press. A slow application of heat only heats the perch bolt as well so there is no gain. The momentary expansion, small as it is is enough to get things moving and once that happens, you're in business.

[Pete]

Those axles can be twisted 10 times without breaking, as in the Ford Motor Company advertising picture. Not so much after the application of heat by an inexpierenced torch bearer.

[Chris Haynes]

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It took a propane torch and a 30 ton press to get mine out.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

It took a propane torch and a 30 ton press to get mine out.

A propane torch without oxygen will not do the job well - the flame is not hot and intense enough.

[28fordroadster]

Thanks for the reply!

[Kevin in NJ]

Never heat the axle past the temp where the grease will smoke. Which of course really does not help getting the perch out.

What I found works surprisingly well is a long throw air hammer. I have an automotive unit, but the aircraft 3X may work also.

Cut the end off a cut off tool so you have a flat end.

The axle must be held solid. If it can move you will loose energy on each hit. I have had mine in a vice that weighs around 100lbs. BTW, I can not express how much nicer it is to have a large heavy vice. You can do things that you did not think possible with normal vices.

Put a nut on the end of the perch and lean in and pull the trigger. It took a while to slowly move out, but it did the job. More amazing was the slightly mushroomed end was still able to take a nut.

No heat was used, no penetrating fluid.

The long throw (3- 4 ") air hammers are not cheap to buy. Check with a local auto shop. I got mine by accident at a garage sale. They had tools cheap, I asked how much for the pile and bought them all. Did not realize what I had till much later when I looked close at it. If you run across one in the $10-$20 range pick it up. It is one of those use once or twice in your life, but without it you would not get the job done so well. Often they range up closer to $100 for used.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Never heat the axle past the temp where the grease will smoke. Which of course really does not help getting the perch out.

What I found works surprisingly well is a long throw air hammer. I have an automotive unit, but the aircraft 3X may work also.

Cut the end off a cut off tool so you have a flat end.

The axle must be held solid. If it can move you will loose energy on each hit. I have had mine in a vice that weighs around 100lbs. BTW, I can not express how much nicer it is to have a large heavy vice. You can do things that you did not think possible with normal vices.

Put a nut on the end of the perch and lean in and pull the trigger. It took a while to slowly move out, but it did the job. More amazing was the slightly mushroomed end was still able to take a nut.

No heat was used, no penetrating fluid.

The long throw (3- 4 ") air hammers are not cheap to buy. Check with a local auto shop. I got mine by accident at a garage sale. They had tools cheap, I asked how much for the pile and bought them all. Did not realize what I had till much later when I looked close at it. If you run across one in the $10-$20 range pick it up. It is one of those use once or twice in your life, but without it you would not get the job done so well. Often they range up closer to $100 for used.

Also, they work great for digging roots and small stumps from your yard and breaking up concrete.

[SteveB31]

Where do you guys come up with this “heat weakens the axle “ stuff. Their are thousands of hot rods running around the world all with dropped axles that were heated and bent to lower them. Curious where this info came from. I have heated and pressed out perches from Model A axles for 40 years. Hundreds of them. Never seen a broken front Model A axle.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by SteveB31

Where do you guys come up with this “heat weakens the axle “ stuff. Their are thousands of hot rods running around the world all with dropped axles that were heated and bent to lower them. Curious where this info came from. I have heated and pressed out perches from Model A axles for 40 years. Hundreds of them. Never seen a broken front Model A axle.

They don't break. As per the Ford advertising picture, they can be twisted 10 times without breaking. They sure will bend easy after messing with heat on them though.
The dropped axles were NOT from a model A.
The 32 axles that were stretch dropped and not filled will bend very easy also.
It all has to do with metallurgy and the laws of physics.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by SteveB31

Where do you guys come up with this “heat weakens the axle “ stuff. Their are thousands of hot rods running around the world all with dropped axles that were heated and bent to lower them. Curious where this info came from. I have heated and pressed out perches from Model A axles for 40 years. Hundreds of them. Never seen a broken front Model A axle.

Originally Posted by Pete

They don't break. As per the Ford advertising picture, they can be twisted 10 times without breaking. They sure will bend easy after messing with heat on them though. The dropped axles were NOT from a model A. The 32 axles that were stretch dropped and not filled will bend very easy also. It all has to do with metallurgy and the laws of physics.

Yeah Mr. S, I am with Steve on this one. The factory print calls for the axle to be made from AA hot rolled steel. When I looked at my Ford Shop Theory book for the composition, it lists the AA is a low carbon steel with only 0.12% - 0.15% Vanadium added. Based on what I am seeing, that axle is containing less than 2 tenths of 1% Vanadium. Even the added Chromium, Manganese, and Carbon amounts are under 1% too.

So based on what I am seeing, these axles are really nothing more than a cheap low-carbon steel beam that has been forged with 30,000 pound strikes. Maybe I am wrong but I don't think that heating the beam is going to affect the forging operation, and to me there is not a high enough percentage of 'specialty stuff' in the original mix that the torch heat is going to affect it. What am I missing??

[Kurt in NJ]

When I was going through and straightening axles it was easy to tell if it had been overheated, it was dead soft, bent with much less force and little spring back compared to a never heated one. ---there will be a grind spot and the impression of a hardness tester on original axles, many suspension parts have this test evident on them,

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

When I was going through and straightening axles it was easy to tell if it had been overheated, it was dead soft, bent with much less force and little spring back compared to a never heated one. ---there will be a grind spot and the impression of a hardness tester on original axles, many suspension parts have this test evident on them,

Kurt, this would be believable if it were forged from cold-rolled steel, but hot-rolled is heated first and then the axle is forged by striking. Based on all I have read, you cannot anneal hot-rolled, so heating it with a torch should not soften an axle.

[Pete]

Ford had his own steel mill and developed some steel formulas that were close to SAE formulas for various parts of the T, A and later cars. One of the steels he used was very similar to the SAE 6000 series which is commonly referred to as a chrome vanadium steel. It has very high fatigue resistance. This is why it is still used in parts that are highly stressed such a front end spindles, axles and steering parts. It can be heat treated to be used for springs and torsion bars also. We made a 4 cylinder crankshaft from a 6.5 inch diameter 6150 billet once. That crank is still running in a vintage circle track midget.
In the 50’s we had access to one of the US Steel Corporation’s labs and had various Ford chassis parts analyzed including a model A front axle and a 32 front axle.
The Ford numbers were close enough to SAE standards to be included.
Here are the numbers.

Chromium-vanadium steel (symbol Cr-V or CrV; 6000-series SAE steel grades) is a group of steel alloys incorporating carbon (0.50%), manganese (0.70-0.90%), silicon (0.30%), chromium (0.80-1.10%), and vanadium (0.18%). Some forms can be used as high-speed steel. Chromium and vanadium both make the steel more hardenable. Chromium also helps resist abrasion, oxidation, and corrosion. Chromium and carbon can both improve elasticity.

One other thing, "cold rolled" and "hot rolled" refer to the mill process for forming the billets or bar stock they ship out, NOT the process manufacturers use to form finished products.

Hot rolled steel CAN be annealed or normalized. If done with a torch, it will most likely be very localized and cause build up of internal stresses.

[28fordroadster]

Thanks for all the great info guys

[Bud]

Regarding removing a spring perch. I used the following method recommended by our club tech advisor at the time: Do NOT beat on the spring perch nut end, it will mushroom or damage the threads, thus making it harder to remove or make it unusable. Use an old water pump shaft and stick it in the hole where the shackle was. You can use a propane torch to heat the body of the axle to assist removal. Get a fairly heavy hammer (3 to 5 lbs), secure the axle, then hit the end of the water pump shaft. You are twisting the perch instead of forcing it out axially. Beat it from both directions. Eventually that perch will move. I also used a penetrating lube as well. It did take 3 days of effort in my spare time after lubricating the perch area to remove the perch, but it did come out. Probably not the most efficient way to remove the perch, but it worked. Not very high tech, no great heat was involved, just persistence.

[Kevin in NJ]

I can assure everyone that an axle heated up will be MUCH softer and bend with much less effort.

As most know I have this posted on my website where I show how I straightened some axles.

Good axles took like 5 pumps with my 10 ton press and you could feel a strong force of resistance. When you released you got only a small amount of held movement. It took a bunch of repeats until I finally got the axle straight.

I had one that moved like butter. I did the 5 pumps and there was little resistance and a large change in angle took place.

What I have found is that the axles take a bend rear ward at the perch hole. Makes sense the constant beating from the front.

So yes the axle will hold up and let you drive the car, but one curb hit and it will have moved. Keep in mind the rod guys heat and bend to make a dropped axle. I got a bunch of crap from those guys.

So I ask a simple question.

Who has driven their car with a heated axle for a long time and taken it apart and rechecked it for straightness? I have never received any comments back about that question. So as far as I am concerned the evidence is strong that a heated axle will not hold alignment over real use on the road. There is zero evidence that it will not have more damage bending over time. We have strong evidence that an good non heated axle can bend and it takes a lot of effort to bend straight again. So logic tells me if it takes a lot less effort to straighten a heated axle then it will bend much easier in use.

Anyone care to give me evidence to prove me wrong?

https://www.cabriolet.piklefactory.c...aightening.htm

[Big hammer]

When we break head studs off flush we weld a nut on too remove the broken stud, we don't heat the block up ! Sooooo why are talking about heating an axle, heat the replaceable perches let the perch cool, heat it again let it cool, heat it one last time and bang the perch out of its hole ! Bang with a press, porapower, big hammer what ever you have. DONE !