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11-10-2020, 03:56 PM | #1 |
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How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Hi all,
I need advice for restoring a previously ‘restored’ set of Phaeton top irons. The set seems solid, but I’m wondering what I can’t see (internal rust, dry rot in the wood, etc). I’ve included a link to a set of pictures. My goal is not a show car, but I want to stay with original as much as possible. I want to be sure the top is solid, looks ok and is ready for a new top. The top (and the car) was restored 50 years ago: • Metal was (probably) sandblasted and painted. Some evidence of welding. Heavy pitting evident throughout, but paint has held for 50 years. • Wood cross pieces appear to be solid. • Curved portions of steel filled with wood scraps and covered with plastic wood-like material. In areas that were tacked (#1 back bow and #4 front bow), ‘plastic wood’ is cracked and breaking up. (See pictures) • Bolts holding front bow to the rest of the top are not original (Sources?) • Cast end pieces lack distinct notches, etc, for locking in correct position. • No evidence of water damage since restoration – roof material was intact, but unusable. Recommendations for restoration? Here’s a list of possibilities - are all necessary?: 1. Complete disassembly: remove all rivets and wood, remove all filler material 2. Inspect hollow sections, treat with rust remover, seal with epoxy paint/fill. 3. Fill curved/hollow sections (with what? I assume original manufacturer pounded metal around wood pieces?) 4. Fill and sand pitted metal 5. Cast end pieces - not sure what these looked like before significant rust. 6. Rivet new wood cross pieces into place (still available anywhere or need to fabricate?) 7. Replace all rivets and cotter-pinned bolts 8. Check for symmetry 9. Paint https://photos.app.goo.gl/VvdzmWET8DuGakH59 Last edited by Thearne3; 11-10-2020 at 09:40 PM. Reason: Clarify title |
11-11-2020, 06:33 AM | #2 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
They usually rust where the tube meets the sold end piece like photo 2.
You might want to check that a broken off end piece hasn't simply been welded on and is now a bit short. |
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11-11-2020, 07:09 AM | #3 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Here is a way to repair the nailing strips within the top irons. Started with a plastic mud flap from an old U Haul truck. Cut into strips that will fit the top iron. Tap into place so that it is tight. Holds nails/staples very well. If the original wood is rotted in your top irons, then you can replace with plastic strips of some sort that you can salvage. This is much easier than trying to bend wood to go around a corner.
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11-11-2020, 09:12 AM | #4 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
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11-11-2020, 11:52 AM | #5 | |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Quote:
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11-11-2020, 01:53 PM | #6 | |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
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Quote:
One little side note on these is to make sure the wooden bows have the correct shape both from side-to-side, and on the side curvature. Also, you can make the tubular rivets that connect the wood to the sockets from brake line tubing and peen the ends which will look just like what Ford did. |
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11-11-2020, 05:09 PM | #7 | |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Quote:
In the prior restoration it looks like they just stuffed wood fragments into the space and covered with some sort of plastic wood filler. Obviously, that didn't do much for structural support! Also, I'm not familiar with the Top Socket Reinforcements you reference. Is there any online information on 'proper' restoration? |
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11-12-2020, 04:55 AM | #8 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
I'm also looking at such a restoration. What I'm seeing as I remove the material in the hollow curves seems like masonite/fiberboard. I'm thinking of using damp strips of masonite, bending and drying them then pressing them down into the hollow of the irons.
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11-12-2020, 11:25 AM | #9 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Promising idea! Any structural support is going to be a function of how well the inserted material conforms to the interior. I keep wondering if there isn't a high density closed cell expanding foam that would serve the purpose? (Of course you'd have a problem removing it!)
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11-12-2020, 12:01 PM | #10 | |||
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
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Unfortunately, there is not any online resource that I am aware of. I will tell you from personal experience that restoring a 35A/B Phaeton top assembly is a fairly large undertaking if you are going to do it correctly where it folds without binding. To do so, it kinda seems like you need to be able to weld thin sheetmetal, shape blocks of wood, and have the patience of Job in biblical proportions! I am definitely not saying that you can't do it, ...however I am saying be prepared that it really is not just a Saturday afternoon project. Additionally, you probably need to purchase copies of the factory prints of both the sockets and the roof bows so you can get the measurements correct. I did this some years ago and they are invaluable. I can give you the individual Ford part numbers if you like. Quote:
The best way we have found is to fixture the socket so it retains the correct curvature (-i.e.: shape) when the wood infrastructure is added. If you do not support the socket before installing the wood, the drying wood will try to distort (straighten) the socket metal. We use ¼" strips of Ash that we have steamed. Then the strip is inserted into the socket once it has been dipped in a water soluble marine glue. The issue you will find is you must work quickly as the glue tends to become sticky as you are trying to push each of the strips into the socket which does not allow the strips to slide amongst themselves. You will also need to deform part of the socket prior to installing the wood and then use heat on the metal to allow it to form around the wood. Once everything has dried and taken set, you may need to put the socket in a press to 'tweak' it back to the factory dimensions. I put some photos below that kinda shows a little of the process. . . |
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11-12-2020, 03:20 PM | #11 | ||
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Quote:
Quote:
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11-12-2020, 03:37 PM | #12 | |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Quote:
Prints are available at the Benson Library for $35 a piece as I recall. I would think that expanding foam would not be a prudent idea. Again, you need something as strong as wood ...however as flexible as wood. I tried to return your call. |
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11-12-2020, 03:53 PM | #13 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Mistake in repeated message
Last edited by Thearne3; 11-12-2020 at 04:07 PM. |
11-12-2020, 05:22 PM | #14 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Ok...
Found the parts you referenced above at maffi.org, eg, 37400: TOP RIB SOCKET #4 SHELL REINFORCEMENT - LOWER. They are $35 for each print. Any suggestions on which drawings will be needed? It looks like the picture attached in #5 above is a good rendition of how the parts are supposed to line up. |
11-12-2020, 05:52 PM | #15 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Its been a number of years since we re-did the top on our '29 touring car, but a couple of quick observations. Moving from left to right and then down on your attached photos, I noticed in photos #4,5,12,13, and 18, that the irons do not appear to be fully extended, as the hooked end of the #2 bow (from front to back) that attaches to the long straight iron that is attached to the rear iron, does not touch and lock into place. While this may just be that the irons were quickly raised for purposes of taking pictures, the failure of these two pieces to "lock" together will affect not only the positioning of the rear bow (and the resulting angle of the top at the rear bow), but it may also show once a new top is installed since it will hang down lower accordingly (I've seen a number of these cars where this connection shows, especially if the top has shrunk at all).
It also appears that the driver's side front bow socket (photo #2) may have been re-welded in the past. If so, I would recommend at least grinding the weld down to where it would be less obvious when viewed (if memory serves me, I don't believe that this portion of the iron is typically wrapped at that point and can therefore be seen when the top is in the up position). As for that portion of the irons that contained wood for tacking pads, etc., we cut narrow strips of pine, soaked them in water until they were somewhat pliable, and then tapped these into place before installing the bows themselves. So far this method seems to have held in place and held tacks well for the most part. Finally, as for filling rust pits in the frame itself, I would recommend the use of a high build primer rather than using a body filler. On serious pits or perhaps minor rust-throughs, I have heard of folks using something like a JB Weld rather than bondo, as it seems to have more strength and adhesion. I hope these thoughts may be of some benefit. Regardless, good luck in getting your top back to a condition you are comfortable with. |
11-13-2020, 10:58 AM | #16 | |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Quote:
You are quite correct, when I set up the top, I had no idea that the hooked end of the the #2 bow was supposed to lock - like you, I've seem a number of pictures where it had dropped! The weld you point out is not only obvious, but is not perfectly straight, so I will need to repair it. Brent's approach with strips of hardwood sounds very similar to your description (noting that pine is a soft wood, however). The message I get from both of you is that wood strips with additional glue, etc are important as much for structural support as being a good tacking surface. i've got to do some planning for this big project over the winter months! |
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05-30-2021, 11:27 PM | #17 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
I did mine using 3mm Marine Ply cut to various widths. I soak the strips in water so they are pliable and then push them into the desired pace. Next apply a Polyurethane Marine grade glue and slide the next strip into place. I then clam the strips into place and let them dry over night (you need to use numerous clams to maintain the curve.) I repeat this process until the recess is filled.
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05-31-2021, 07:18 AM | #18 | ||
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
Quote:
Yes, that is very true. The wind gets buffeted under the top when being driven which causes the top assembly to rack laterally. We have had to fix two different cars that had some sort of epoxy filler (-maybe Liquid Nails?) and the other was upholstery panel board and the top iron was cracked because of the lack of stability. Quote:
The only caution I would give, -what we have experienced is when the water dries, the compressed fibers of the wood tend to expand and the curvature of the iron socket will be altered. This becomes a problem when the bows are installed and the bottom of the top irons are attached to the pivot bolts. You need to make a fixture to hold the proper curvature of the socket so it does not bend during the drying process. |
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05-31-2021, 08:09 AM | #19 |
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Re: How to Restore ‘29 Phaeton Top Irons?
I have a 31 Standard Roadster that needs the curved "reinforcements" in the front top bow replaced as well. Do all of the same comments/precautions apply to this? Also, I am not sure if the front bow (the straight wooden part) is original or a replacement that someone made. How can I verify that it is the correct length, which it seems to be, and the correct width and height? Should the profile be consistent from end to end?
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