Seat Belt Installation

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Yup. What barkleydave said.

[Tim B.]

John, I'm sure you'll figure it out. Just passing along some info. Noted you planned to use a common anchor point for center belts. Seat belts that I bought from a US manufacturer had a warning to not use a common bolt for the center belts.

Also there is an option to the flange mounted belts sold by the vendors. I bought DOT approved aircraft style belts that affix to a permanent eye bolt mount via a clip on the belts. They give a bit more flexibility for mounting since there is no large plate on the belt ends restricting how they must be orientated and the belts can be removed and reinstalled by unclipping leaving the mounts if you feel the need. Tim

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by barkleydave

I appreciate the input.... I am going to install lap belts. The discussion is interesting and no the cars were not engineered for them. The liability issue is the least of my concerns.

After spending 30 years in Law Enforcement... "Better tried by 12 than carried by 6" stand out.

Now if the pan bends in a crash that will actually absorb some of the inertia of the crash and can be a plus. Lets face it nothing would help in a side impact of much speed (no beams in doors etc) and frontal or rear above 40 MPH will likely be fatal.

For me keeping one from being ejected through windshield or out an open door is all we can expect belts to do in our A's. That alone personally is enough to justify installation.

Nicely Stated...

[Brother Hesekiel]

Believe it or not, I would LIKE to be catapulted out of an open A (or T) in case of an accident, as it happened when my Speedster went straight into a tree at about 25mph on Memorial Day 2012. Had my wife and I not been catapulted out of the car, I would have been killed in that accident, and most likely my wife as well. When being catapulted out, I have a 50/50 chance of winning the odds, in case I experience free flight. Losing the game happens when I hit something hard early. For the same reason motorcyclists spread their legs and let their bike go into the obstacle alone. Under racing conditions, even getting off the bike at triple-digit speeds doesn't mean horrible injuries. Injuries happen once you hit something hard. As barkleydave so appropriately stated, if we get T-boned or rear-ended at a speed of 40mph or more, it would be fatal, as our body would be smashed to a clump. I rather take my chances and fly out if at all possible. I don't want to be strapped into a death trap anymore that I would want to be strapped onto a motorcycle. But again, this only applies to an open car, not a closed one. I understand that belts or no belts is a very controversial subject, and unfortunately there is no one solution that fits all because we don't know what kind of accident we will be involved in.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW:

Even though not mentioned often, in my opinion, there appears that there are more agreements concerning seat belt installation rather than disagreements concerning "safety" every time someone discusses Model A seat belts.

Just a few of the agreements are, (maybe not in this order):

1. Model A's never had specific locations to attach modern front and/or rear seat belts.

2. Because of one (1) above & other factors, anybody who installs seat belts in a Model A is taking a liability risk because the original manufacturer never designed this vehicle to have seat belts installed in the first place.

3. Next, a few articles with photos indicated how seat belts were installed in a few "particular" Model A body structures; however, not all Model A bodies even closely resemble other Model A body structures, (i.e., some wood, some steel, etc.), & what "may" prevent an injury in one Model A body structure "may" totally fail with a different body structure.

4. Also mentioned is that not all possible accidents are alike, i.e., T-bone, rear end, front end collision, doors flying open, coupled with a Model A body that never was designed to meet today's vehicle impact safety standards, adds to this very complicated recommendation for seat belt installation.

5. Without even considering Model A structural forces, collision impact forces, & human body reaction to all forces, one must think carefully & first decide "if" one wants seat belts or not.

6. Lastly, the most satisfying responses individuals seem to share for installing seats belts always appears to be: "I DID IT MY WAY!" ........... & believe it or not, without being able to "see" exactly what was done, nobody feels 100% confident in a pro or con comment on same.

7. No. 5 above is important, & there are some articles on the internet for safely installing seat belts if one is interested -- just hope this helps if one is searching for the one & only, easy "single" manner to install seat belts in a Model A ...... it may never be written.

[CarlG]

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Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

...anybody who installs seat belts in a Model A is taking a liability risk because the original manufacturer never designed this vehicle to have seat belts installed in the first place...

...if one is searching for the one & only, easy "single" manner to install seat belts in a Model A ...... it may never be written.

Liability is the main reason why you will never see an instruction sheet included with your seat belt purchase. It's pretty much "Install at your own risk" kind of thing.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by Tim B.

John, I'm sure you'll figure it out. Just passing along some info. Noted you planned to use a common anchor point for center belts. Seat belts that I bought from a US manufacturer had a warning to not use a common bolt for the center belts.

Also there is an option to the flange mounted belts sold by the vendors. I bought DOT approved aircraft style belts that affix to a permanent eye bolt mount via a clip on the belts. They give a bit more flexibility for mounting since there is no large plate on the belt ends restricting how they must be orientated and the belts can be removed and reinstalled by unclipping leaving the mounts if you feel the need. Tim

Was this directed toward me? couldn't find another John in the posts.

I started this thread in 2010 and have since solved the problem. I did not use a common anchor point in the center. Ran 2 pieces of angle iron the length of the floor pan along the floor pan contour on either side of the drive shaft. That was a little tricky but it can be done with enough patience and talent in cutting out cardboard templates a few times. Installed the center seat belts with a 12" spacer so it is easy to latch. The side belts are self retracting. Makes a nice installation and my wife feels a little more secure. She is used to riding in the 29 roadster where your butt rests against the side of the body and not the door as in the 400A.

[huddy]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

"This is not a problem for the SAE 1/4-20 bolt fastening the seat belt"

I would think a 3/8" grade 8 bolt would be the minimum size anchor bolt.

Of course you're correct. An old timer I worked with used to say "you can lift a Caddy with a 1/4-20 bolt" and he was correct - a grade 8 1/4-20 has a tensile strength of 4700 lbs, give or take. But a 3/8 grade 8 has a tensile strength of almost 12,000 lbs, which is definitely strong enough. Rule of thumb for something like that is to design it with at least a 100% over the expected maximum load.

My point was that in a collision, the bolt will probably hold, but the underlying structure may not. I've seen incidents where a bolt held just fine but it tore thru the sheet metal it was attached to. Do the seat belt installation wrong and the EMTs will find your seatbelt intact, along with your body and whatever you had fastened the seatbelt to.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

"
Originally Posted by Tim B.

"Also there is an option to the flange mounted belts sold by the vendors. I bought DOT approved aircraft style belts that affix to a permanent eye bolt mount via a clip on the belts. They give a bit more flexibility for mounting since there is no large plate on the belt ends restricting how they must be orientated and the belts can be removed and reinstalled by unclipping leaving the mounts if you feel the need. Tim"

If you are anchoring anything to an eye-bolt, use a one-piece forged eye-bolt. The eye-bolt from the hardware store that is just a round rod bent into a loop is not strong enough. It will unwind under a strong pull unless you weld the loop ends together.

[Tom Endy]

In post #7 above I described how I installed seat belts in my Victoria. Sometime later I wrote an article about it that appeared in the Victoria Association newsletter. This article is available, and with color photos, on the web site of the Santa Anita A's of Arcadia, California. Go to santaanitaas.org. On the home page put your cursor on "Technical Reference" and my name will appear below, click on it. A new menu will come up, scroll down to misc and to seat belt installation. The file is a pdf and you are welcome to download and save or print out.

Since a number of people have expressed liability concerns, please keep in mind that this article is merely explaining how I installed seat belts, and is not recommending that you do it this way.

Tom Endy

[bgarrett]

For those not wanting seatbelts, consider this. At about 35 mph. I hit a concrete column holding a mailbox. The car hit the concrete on the left front frame horn and trapezoided the frame. The 31 coupe stopped on top of the knocked over concrete with no wheels on the ground. Both hands at 11 o'clock and one o'clock on the steering wheel burst the windshield and bleed copiously but not serious injuries. The biggest problem was that the entire seat and cushion slid forward and crushed me against the steering wheel, destroying the wheel and breaking ribs.
Yes I will add seat belts and I think I will bolt that seat down.
We had a nice couple riding in a 31 coupe that was hit on the right rear wheel by a Cadillac. It stressed the body, the passenger door popped open, she fell out, hitting her head on the concrete curb. Dead.

[Greg Jones]

Well I dont want to turn this into a "who has the most sensational wreck" kind of tack on to the original post. But 7 years ago almost to the day a GMC Suburban suddenly pulled out in front of me as I was doing nearly 50 mph. No seat belts and I went through the windshield. Leg wrapped around the gear shift lever and bent it on my way out. By the grace of God I survived that accident but was in bad shape-broken femur, all ribs on right side broken, cuts and gashes. (The original windshield had at some point been replaced with plate glass-bad time to figure that out.) Trust me you can grip the steering wheel as hard as you want but you ain't hanging on at 50 mph. Again, not to sensationalize but as you can imagine my two Model As both have seat belts with solid anchor points. If these pictures make someone think about seat belts then I guess they are worth posting here.

[armchair67]

I installed belts front and back in my Tudor. I'm having the work checked, and if needed, modified by a shop that builds Porsches and other cars for racing. No way I'd drive without belts. Installed properly, they very neat are always the better choose compared to not having them. There are typically three crashes that occur in an auto accident. Car hitting another object. Unbelted occupants hitting inside parts of car. Organs hitting the inside of the skeleton.

[Greg Jones]

Plus, I have the honor of having Steve Becker post this picture at the counter of Bert's Model A in Denver. Hard won honor!

[armchair67]

That was a helluva hit Greg-glad you are here to tell us about it and also glad you learned from it and installed belts. We can be as careful as we want-hard to anticipate what another person is going to do. There are a lot of Donald Turnupseeds and far worse out there

[denis4x4]

The first set of seat belts I ever installed was in 1956 in a '39 Plymouth so I could run at the old Paradise Mesa drag strip east of San Diego. This is not rocket science. As I posted earlier, I'm using 2" channel bolted to the frame with grade 8 fine thread 3/8" bolts.
In the early sixties, I designed and built the first bolt in roll bars for sports cars that were SCCA approved for competition. We looked at countless wrecks as part of the design process. In designing the base plates and backing plates, the secret was to spread the load over the biggest area possible.
Based on my experience, the installation of seat belts in a Model A is best with a dedicated cross member.
To those A owners that are fearful of attorneys or fine point judges, I would suggest that you use seat belt installations with eye bolts so that the belts can be quickly removed.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Remember, use the forged eyebolts and not the rolled ones. The one on the left is the rolled one and will unwind under enough pressure. The right one is forged and is much stronger.