The Ford Barn

John Stone · 12-29-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I believe maybe some of this advice has kinda gone "off-topic" here. Did I not read the initial question from Mr. Stone was how to install belts on a 400A (Convertible Sedan), a Victoria, or a DeLuxe Phaeton that has the floor pan? Allow me to post a picture showing what the floor pan looks like so some can see the differences between this body and others and why some of the comments might not apply very well...

.

Thanks Brent for this post and the picture. I thought everyone knew the difference between the early to late Model A's but I was mistaken.

In all the above discussion, I think I got one real answer to the question. There is not an easy solution. I will have to just climb under my car and see what I can come up with. Do hate to do too much to the carpet.

Thanks again.
John

1931 flamingo · 12-29-2010, 06:31 PM

What holds the floor pan to the sub-frame. Years ago when I installed seat belts in my 32 coupe I used 3/8's steel plate abot 6'x6' under the floor pan and attached belts to the mounting studs. Things were simplier then and at age 16 really didn't do it for safety, it was "cool" back then I'd do something similar in your400A just to keep you in the car. JMO
Paul in CT

John Stone · 12-29-2010, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

What holds the floor pan to the sub-frame. Years ago when I installed seat belts in my 32 coupe I used 3/8's steel plate abot 6'x6' under the floor pan and attached belts to the mounting studs. Things were simplier then and at age 16 really didn't do it for safety, it was "cool" back then I'd do something similar in your400A just to keep you in the car. JMO
Paul in CT

Thanks for the response but if I read your post right, that steel plate weighed over 500 lbs. Not sure I want to try to lift it.

1931 flamingo · 12-29-2010, 07:00 PM

John: My mistake, meant 6"x6" x3/8" thick. Sorry
Paul in CT

John Stone · 12-29-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

John: My mistake, meant 6"x6" x3/8" thick. Sorry
Paul in CT

The pan is held in by nails. Not something I would trust. However, I would trust the 6'X6' plate.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 12-30-2010, 08:20 AM

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John, to "chase a rabbit", it just dawned on me that the picture I posted of the car we restored is the same color combo as your car. Very stunning color in my views...

Something else, is your wood new or is it original? Why I am asking is do you think it would have bearing on the strength to hold the belt hardware?

.

John Stone · 12-30-2010, 09:49 AM

I do get a lot of nice comments about the color.

It has new wood.

I believe the side rails are stong enough with a big fender washer underneath but the center cross member under the seat might not be. There isn't a lot of room on the center seat rest plate. It looks like you would have to use the same bolt for both seat belts and then go through the floor pan at an angle to avoid the drive shaft and fashion some kind of bracket that is fastened to the center wood cross member. Of course it has to be reinforced in some manner probably with an angle iron going the full span and bolted to the side rails. In Wichita I can always find an aircraft stress engineer. They always like a challenge. Fastening directly to the floor pan is not the answer.

Oh yes, I have most of a set of used wood. Does anyone want it? All you have to do it pick it up.

1931 flamingo · 12-30-2010, 10:04 AM

I'm not that familiar with A400 floor (looks recessed, but best bet would (if possible) run a small "I-beam or double I-beam across and attach to the top frame rail from underneath, if you mount to the lower frame rail it's a stretch to where you can attach s/belt anchors, that's why i suggested floor pan. Is there a way to place a steel plate over the subrail portion (sandwich the subrail) in the area of floorpan and then install the s/belt plates. Of course the biggest problem (opportunity) is that yours is a finished car.
Paul in CT

John Stone · 12-30-2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

I'm not that familiar with A400 floor (looks recessed, but best bet would (if possible) run a small "I-beam or double I-beam across and attach to the top frame rail from underneath, if you mount to the lower frame rail it's a stretch to where you can attach s/belt anchors, that's why i suggested floor pan. Is there a way to place a steel plate over the subrail portion (sandwich the subrail) in the area of floorpan and then install the s/belt plates. Of course the biggest problem (opportunity) is that yours is a finished car.
Paul in CT

There just isn't a lot of room for reinforcing. You really need to look at both the top and the bottom to get an appreciation of the problem.

ryan1929 · 12-30-2010, 11:35 AM

I can understand why you guys put seat belts in your cars down in the lower 48. The traffic is crazy and the drivers are nuts. I drive a Semi from Canada to Houston Every week. But up heer in canada the people are friendly and I will never put seat belts in my A it just ruins the originality.

Jim Brierley · 12-30-2010, 12:06 PM

John, I lied, the angle iron is what I put on my speedster. It stretches between the frame rails and is bolted to the underside of the top rail, there is plenty of drive shaft clearance. On the '30 tudor I merely bolted them to the existing body rail. It may not be the strongest place but I figure it would hold in most cases? At least it makes me feel secure.

Clydes 31 P/U · 12-30-2010, 05:34 PM

Just thinking around this seat belt problem of limited space between frame and floor pans for steel supports for the belt anchors. Would it be possible to use 2" webbing that is used for ratchet straps, doubled and bolted to frame on each side then bolted to floor pan at needed locations then bolt the seat belt through the floor pan and webbing? I've had the local canvas shop cut and shorten my tie down straps and resewn them and then would be possible to make plates like the body mount ends of seat belts for the lower strap to bolt to floor pan. I've seen people draw things and post them here but thats way beyond me. I hope I've gotten my thoughts across and not confused or confounded too many people...........Clyde

John Stone · 12-30-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clydes 31 P/U

Just thinking around this seat belt problem of limited space between frame and floor pans for steel supports for the belt anchors. Would it be possible to use 2" webbing that is used for ratchet straps, doubled and bolted to frame on each side then bolted to floor pan at needed locations then bolt the seat belt through the floor pan and webbing? I've had the local canvas shop cut and shorten my tie down straps and resewn them and then would be possible to make plates like the body mount ends of seat belts for the lower strap to bolt to floor pan. I've seen people draw things and post them here but thats way beyond me. I hope I've gotten my thoughts across and not confused or confounded too many people...........Clyde

Interesting concept however when the seat belts come under load, the floor pan would just bend. The force is perpendicular to the pan and it needs to be restrained along the belt, not at right angles.

barkleydave · 11-09-2014, 09:00 AM

I recently obtained a 29 closed cab pickup. It is a beauty and is currently getting some minor upgrades at an Old School restoration shop. I asked about seat belts and I was advised that they DO NOT install them and that was the end of the discussion.

So as stated in other posts I seem to be on my own! I understand that belts need to be anchored to a frame member and not just to the body. Years ago I installed lap belts in a foreign sports car. Since it had a tunnel it was not difficult to secure them with the included hardware and large grade 8 bolts and shoulder washer.

Would like to hear how some may have installed lap belts in a pickup. I assume the frame and cross members might be different and even stronger?

thanks

1931 flamingo · 11-09-2014, 09:24 AM

WELCOME !
There is a liability issue on their part.
Do a "search", many, many threads on seat belts.
Paul in CT

mshmodela · 11-09-2014, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan1929

I can understand why you guys put seat belts in your cars down in the lower 48. The traffic is crazy and the drivers are nuts. I drive a Semi from Canada to Houston Every week. But up heer in canada the people are friendly and I will never put seat belts in my A it just ruins the originality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgaZMSjhpH8

Synchro909 · 11-09-2014, 03:52 PM

John Kuhnast. Pls check your PMs

huddy · 11-09-2014, 09:47 PM

I think what you need to keep in mind is that in what would be termed a "survivable" traffic collision (by modern auto standards, not antiques) the passenger can easily experience 15 to 30 g's of deceleration. This means that an average 170 pound adult will exert between 2,500 and 5,000 pounds of force on the restraint system for that short deceleration interval. If you are designing a restraint system (e.g. seatbelt) however you attach it and the associated structure should be able to withstand a ton or two of force. This is not a problem for the SAE 1/4-20 bolt fastening the seat belt but it might be a big problem for the structure it is attached to.

For the deceleration values, do a Google on "auto collison deceleration" and you'll get a bunch of references; I did a bit of Kentucky windage and averaged the range of numbers. By modern standards, I'm referring to cars that have "crush zones" and other protective design features that are missing from our antiques. The forces are likely worse in the older cars.

Tom Wesenberg · 11-10-2014, 09:05 AM

"This is not a problem for the SAE 1/4-20 bolt fastening the seat belt"

I would think a 3/8" grade 8 bolt would be the minimum size anchor bolt.

barkleydave · 11-10-2014, 09:52 AM

I appreciate the input.... I am going to install lap belts. The discussion is interesting and no the cars were not engineered for them. The liability issue is the least of my concerns.

After spending 30 years in Law Enforcement... "Better tried by 12 than carried by 6" stand out.

Now if the pan bends in a crash that will actually absorb some of the inertia of the crash and can be a plus. Lets face it nothing would help in a side impact of much speed (no beams in doors etc) and frontal or rear above 40 MPH will likely be fatal.

For me keeping one from being ejected through windshield or out an open door is all we can expect belts to do in our A's. That alone personally is enough to justify installation.

12-29-2010, 06:31 PM	#22
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,389	Re: Seat Belt Installation What holds the floor pan to the sub-frame. Years ago when I installed seat belts in my 32 coupe I used 3/8's steel plate abot 6'x6' under the floor pan and attached belts to the mounting studs. Things were simplier then and at age 16 really didn't do it for safety, it was "cool" back then I'd do something similar in your400A just to keep you in the car. JMO Paul in CT

12-29-2010, 07:00 PM	#24
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,389	Re: Seat Belt Installation John: My mistake, meant 6"x6" x3/8" thick. Sorry Paul in CT

12-30-2010, 08:20 AM	#26
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,508	Re: Seat Belt Installation Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) John, to "chase a rabbit", it just dawned on me that the picture I posted of the car we restored is the same color combo as your car. Very stunning color in my views... Something else, is your wood new or is it original? Why I am asking is do you think it would have bearing on the strength to hold the belt hardware? . __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

12-30-2010, 09:49 AM	#27
John Stone Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 710	Re: Seat Belt Installation I do get a lot of nice comments about the color. It has new wood. I believe the side rails are stong enough with a big fender washer underneath but the center cross member under the seat might not be. There isn't a lot of room on the center seat rest plate. It looks like you would have to use the same bolt for both seat belts and then go through the floor pan at an angle to avoid the drive shaft and fashion some kind of bracket that is fastened to the center wood cross member. Of course it has to be reinforced in some manner probably with an angle iron going the full span and bolted to the side rails. In Wichita I can always find an aircraft stress engineer. They always like a challenge. Fastening directly to the floor pan is not the answer. Oh yes, I have most of a set of used wood. Does anyone want it? All you have to do it pick it up.

12-30-2010, 10:04 AM	#28
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,389	Re: Seat Belt Installation I'm not that familiar with A400 floor (looks recessed, but best bet would (if possible) run a small "I-beam or double I-beam across and attach to the top frame rail from underneath, if you mount to the lower frame rail it's a stretch to where you can attach s/belt anchors, that's why i suggested floor pan. Is there a way to place a steel plate over the subrail portion (sandwich the subrail) in the area of floorpan and then install the s/belt plates. Of course the biggest problem (opportunity) is that yours is a finished car. Paul in CT

12-30-2010, 11:35 AM	#30
ryan1929 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Edmonton Ab Posts: 247	Re: Seat Belt Installation I can understand why you guys put seat belts in your cars down in the lower 48. The traffic is crazy and the drivers are nuts. I drive a Semi from Canada to Houston Every week. But up heer in canada the people are friendly and I will never put seat belts in my A it just ruins the originality.

12-30-2010, 12:06 PM	#31
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,085	Re: Seat Belt Installation John, I lied, the angle iron is what I put on my speedster. It stretches between the frame rails and is bolted to the underside of the top rail, there is plenty of drive shaft clearance. On the '30 tudor I merely bolted them to the existing body rail. It may not be the strongest place but I figure it would hold in most cases? At least it makes me feel secure.

12-30-2010, 05:34 PM	#32
Clydes 31 P/U Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: northern Il Posts: 302	Re: Seat Belt Installation Just thinking around this seat belt problem of limited space between frame and floor pans for steel supports for the belt anchors. Would it be possible to use 2" webbing that is used for ratchet straps, doubled and bolted to frame on each side then bolted to floor pan at needed locations then bolt the seat belt through the floor pan and webbing? I've had the local canvas shop cut and shorten my tie down straps and resewn them and then would be possible to make plates like the body mount ends of seat belts for the lower strap to bolt to floor pan. I've seen people draw things and post them here but thats way beyond me. I hope I've gotten my thoughts across and not confused or confounded too many people...........Clyde

11-09-2014, 09:00 AM	#34
barkleydave Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Kentucky Posts: 502	Re: Seat Belt Installation I recently obtained a 29 closed cab pickup. It is a beauty and is currently getting some minor upgrades at an Old School restoration shop. I asked about seat belts and I was advised that they DO NOT install them and that was the end of the discussion. So as stated in other posts I seem to be on my own! I understand that belts need to be anchored to a frame member and not just to the body. Years ago I installed lap belts in a foreign sports car. Since it had a tunnel it was not difficult to secure them with the included hardware and large grade 8 bolts and shoulder washer. Would like to hear how some may have installed lap belts in a pickup. I assume the frame and cross members might be different and even stronger? thanks

11-09-2014, 09:24 AM	#35
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,389	Re: Seat Belt Installation WELCOME ! There is a liability issue on their part. Do a "search", many, many threads on seat belts. Paul in CT

11-09-2014, 03:52 PM	#37
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: Seat Belt Installation John Kuhnast. Pls check your PMs

11-09-2014, 09:47 PM	#38
huddy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Central NY & Central CA Posts: 316	Re: Seat Belt Installation I think what you need to keep in mind is that in what would be termed a "survivable" traffic collision (by modern auto standards, not antiques) the passenger can easily experience 15 to 30 g's of deceleration. This means that an average 170 pound adult will exert between 2,500 and 5,000 pounds of force on the restraint system for that short deceleration interval. If you are designing a restraint system (e.g. seatbelt) however you attach it and the associated structure should be able to withstand a ton or two of force. This is not a problem for the SAE 1/4-20 bolt fastening the seat belt but it might be a big problem for the structure it is attached to. For the deceleration values, do a Google on "auto collison deceleration" and you'll get a bunch of references; I did a bit of Kentucky windage and averaged the range of numbers. By modern standards, I'm referring to cars that have "crush zones" and other protective design features that are missing from our antiques. The forces are likely worse in the older cars. __________________ Owning an antique car is "start fixing one thing, find four other things that need fixing." Lather, rinse, repeat.

11-10-2014, 09:05 AM	#39
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Seat Belt Installation "This is not a problem for the SAE 1/4-20 bolt fastening the seat belt" I would think a 3/8" grade 8 bolt would be the minimum size anchor bolt.

11-10-2014, 09:52 AM	#40
barkleydave Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Kentucky Posts: 502	Re: Seat Belt Installation I appreciate the input.... I am going to install lap belts. The discussion is interesting and no the cars were not engineered for them. The liability issue is the least of my concerns. After spending 30 years in Law Enforcement... "Better tried by 12 than carried by 6" stand out. Now if the pan bends in a crash that will actually absorb some of the inertia of the crash and can be a plus. Lets face it nothing would help in a side impact of much speed (no beams in doors etc) and frontal or rear above 40 MPH will likely be fatal. For me keeping one from being ejected through windshield or out an open door is all we can expect belts to do in our A's. That alone personally is enough to justify installation.