Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

You need some good info from years ago.
Take the pulley and gear off and look at the pic.
Note the keyway is to the right dot to left.
Just line up the dots as shown.
Take any cylinder and check for compression.
I'm sure it will be better then 50lbs.





Just do like pic and if the ign timing is off ,its easy to turn dist use the thumb way for TDC

I believe somewhere along the line that picture somehow got "inverted", the crank-key should be to the left of the mark on the gear not the right! That's been mentioned up here a few times!!

If you "flip" the picture it is correct but the print becomes wrong!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Also difficult to tell from Gordon's photos but the valve springs MAY be upside down, can't say 100% from the photos? It will run this way but it's not right if they that's how they are? Looks like "progressive-wound" springs to me.

[George/Maine]

The gear should only go on one way.

There is only on way to check.
Put keyway at 12 0clock. then line up pointer coat hanger at TDC on pulley.
Looking at the intake valve #1 turn engine till you see the intake just start to open.
Turn in one direction.
Now look at pulley. It should about 3 degs BTDC
If this is true button it up.

[GordonC]

Georg I appreciate your attempts to help. I found a dot on the crank gear and I found the dot on the cam gear. I have posted pictures showing the both of them lined up. Thats not the problem at the moment. The only question now is if the cam gear was properly installed on the cam, which I am figuring out by looking at the valve positions relative to the crank and cam being set with the dots in alignment.

[pooch]

I dont' see the point in removing the intake nor the pulley just to check if cam timing is correct.

Simply look down plug hole as already been described.

With #1 and #6 at tdc, looking at the bottom of the valve will tell you nothing.

Abeit, one set will have clearance and one set will be slightly raised.

Much easier to see the rocking action from up top.

But now you have the intake off, rock the crank back and forth a little and if you are on #1 TDC FIRING stroke , look at #6 as you rock the crank a little back and forth and stop it when both valves are rocking .

Now look at your timing dots.

They should align when #6 is rocking.

And if the builder is very suspect so far, I would not attempt to start this engine without force feeding it some oil into the gallery to get static pressure before spinning it over.

Who knows if he ever primed the pump?

In your attempts so far to get this running, have you noticed oil pressure on the guage ?

If so, disregard this last bit.

[Hal Beatty]

I'll agree with Gosfast, something looks fishy with those valve springs...

All this brings up something I dealt with 45 years ago; I assembled a freshly rebuilt later model Ford engine and even though I was a punk kid I knew enough to double check the cam/crank timing before I put the front timing cover on. The two marks on the gears lined up correctly so I bolted everything up and put it back in the car. Only problem was that it wouldn't start, did some farting and popping but wouldn't run. Over the next week I checked everything, including ignition and fuel. When I checked compression it was low, just as you've found. My first guess at that point was that I had messed up the cam timing, but I knew that couldn't be the case. So I tore it down and sure enough... the marks lined up just as I had installed them. Then I blamed the cam grinder; so pulled that, and found all the lobes to be in the right place. Decided to put the stock cam back in it and when re-installing the timing gears and chain finally discovered that I had originally installed the cam gear backwards and had been timing the cam off of a small balance hole on the back side of the gear. Now that is a "learning experience"...

[Mart]

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This recent thread deals with the same subject.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233257

What I learnt from this: The tooth that should have the dot is on the 3rd full tooth to the right from the keyway.

If you look at the pictures of the block on the stand, the keyway appears to be pointing to No.1 cylinder. And No.1 cylinder is at TDC.

Some simple math: for the keyway to be pointing at no.1 cylinder and the marked tooth pointing straight up, they need to be 45 degrees apart. The gear has 22 teeth. 45 degrees is one eighth of a full circle. One eighth of 22 is 2.75. Look at the picture of the gear again. Count full teeth back from the dotted tooth to the keyway. 2.75 teeth.

Following me? The only thing that has not been established so far on this engine is whether No.1 cylinder is at TDC. Pull the pulley and you will see where the keyway is. How long will it take? A couple of minutes? You don't even have to pull the pulley. Just take the bolt out and look at the end of the pulley, with a mirror if necessary.

If the keyway is pointing at No.1 cylinder and the marks are aligned then the valves on either no.1 or no.6 should be rocking.

You can see from the other thread that what looks like a perfectly good mark is 180 degrees out. The mark that needs to be aligned to make the motor run is very poorly marked and just happens to be on the third tooth round to the right.

Your gear could be like that.

You will get nowhere without being able to verify the position of the keyway and the mark.

Mart.

[Binx]

Looks like the valves, springs and retainers are not compatible.

1. Those are not flathead valves with that much stem sticking out below the retainer.
2. The springs are upside down and are the longer springs for earlier engines without rotating type retainers.

These springs will likely bind and destroy the retainers.

Lonnie

[GordonC]

pooch I poured oil into the engine via the remote oil filler lines as well as filled the oil filter before hand. I then pulled all the plugs and cranked it over to see if I got pressure to the gauge. Good news was I was able to see oil feeding up the line to the gauge. Bad news was I was never able to get it to fire to check and see what I had for pressure. I do know having pulled the intake there seems to be plenty of oil splashed around in the galley. Ill also rock the engine as suggested and see what happens with the valves on #6.

As for the valve springs on properly or not that might be on me as when I redid the guides I reassembled the valve assemblies. In looking at them I did not see any difference but put them back the way I thought I found them. I can correct this if it has any bearing on this problem.

[Mart]

Ok. Look at this pic:



Can you see the the original timing mark at 90 degrees to your mark? That's funny, isn't it? With the cam gear marks aligned No.1 should be at TDC. The timing mark should be aligned with the timing pointer.

Where is the timing pointer on an 8BA? check this pic.


It's not where the timing mark is, it's roughly in line with No.1 cylinder.

Your gear is either fitted wrong or marked wrong.

I'll repeat:

Your gear is either fitted wrong or marked wrong.


Ignore any comments about distributors, springs and the cam even, the first thing to establish is the relationship between the crank, the keyway, no.1 tdc and the mark on the gear.

All the other things can be looked at in turn once the correct cam timing has been established.

Mart.

[GordonC]

Binx those are chevy valves in my engine and all the other valve parts came from 8ba engines I had. Never had any earlier ones. It was my understanding you could run the chevy valves if you ran a reground cam and adjustable lifters? No?

Looks like Ill be pulling the heads...

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by GordonC

revkev6 I had to replace all the guides, which I did. I had provided all new valves and valve seats and they appeared to be installed correctly when I had the guides out. I marked all valves prior to uninstalling them. I then installed the new guides and returned all valves to the cyl they came out of and lapped them at that point. I have no way of knowing for sure what all he did or didn't do as the engine came back to me assembled with the oil pan on and timing cover on. I put the intake, water pumps, and starter on and installed it in my project roadster. At this point without completely tearing this engine down I just want to see if it will run properly. If it doesn't it will come out and I will get another probably completely stock runner if possible. I am so tired of all the crap that has gone on around this engine.

flatjack9 all the crank gears I saw had the dot centered on the tooth as well. This one is not, but I think it is there more to indicate the tooth to be used for alignment than the exact dead nuts position. Plus I cannot see the keyway without pulling the front pulley off and I am trying not to do more work than is necessary to get this squared away.

Seriously? How hard is it to remove the pulley to verify you have correctly located the dot? Seems like you've done a lot of work without getting anywhere. Remove the pulley!

[George/Maine]

Gordonc Seeing you have the intake off would you do a quick test for me.
When at TDC with coat hanger pointer.turn engine and see when both valves are closed at TDC.
Do a 360 and see when the intake opens.
What I want to know is when both valves are closed you can make sure by going both ways to make sure. When both valves are closed were is the dot on cam gear.
If it at 12 oclock you are at the firing position.
This is good because you can put dist in and should be 6 oclock with the rotor.
But #1 must be marked on cap with stock dist.
In reading your post who lined up the gears and were they ever changed.

[GordonC]

Mart I liked your suggestion on pulling the bolt and seeing where the keyway was and then going 3 teeth from there to see if that is where the mark is on the crank gear. Give me a little bit to see if I can do that. I appreciate the help. I'm not ignoring or arguing with you, just need time to process all of what is being suggested.

[GordonC]

Ok flatjack, ease up a bit dude! Mart suggested pulling the bolt and looking at where the keyway was. I didn't realize you could see it from the end of the pulley with the bolt removed. I just did that. With the 2 dots aligned the keyway appears to be at the 7 o'clock position. If I rotate it 360 degrees until they align again it is then on the other side of the center line of the crank at about the 5 o'clock position.

Here is a pic of what I saw.

[GordonC]

George give me a little bit and I will try out what you want to know. The builder installed the crank and cam as well as the cam gear. I do not know that he changed the crank gear from the one that was originally on it when I gave it to him.

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by GordonC

Ok flatjack, ease up a bit dude! Mart suggested pulling the bolt and looking at where the keyway was. I didn't realize you could see it from the end of the pulley with the bolt removed. I just did that. With the 2 dots aligned the keyway appears to be at the 7 o'clock position. If I rotate it 360 degrees until they align again it is then on the other side of the center line of the crank at about the 5 o'clock position.

Here is a pic of what I saw.

I am in the middle of building an engine right now. When the marks are aligned, the keyway is at about 10:30 (crank gear). Sounds like yours is way off. That's a problem.

[JSeery]

Yep, the photo you posted shows a problem. Know you don't what hear this, but the pulley needs to come off. The mark you are seeing on the crank gear is not the correct mark and you need the pulley off to see what is going on.

[GordonC]

flatjack9 I agree. I am not arguing with you buddy. I just need time to do this stuff. I don't have a computer connection in my garage so this stuff doesn't happen instantly. I had to unbolt the motor mounts to raise the motor enough to remove the pulley. It hung up just a bit on the leaf spring bolts for the front spring.

Anyway, I have spun the motor over a number of times. For what its worth, and don't shoot me as this is just what I have observed, when I get compression starting on #1 cylinder with my finger in the plug hole and rotate it until I hit close to what I think is TDC the keyway is at about the 5 o'clock position. The intake valve is open and the exhaust valve looks closed. It is obvious to me that I cannot trust the mark on the crank gear or where he has set the cam in relation to it. If I rotate the crank until the keyway is at about at 10/10:30 then it looks like both valves on #1 are closed.

[GordonC]

JSerry I pulled the pulley to get a look at the keyway better.

[JSeery]

You should be able to set the cam gearing correctly now. Look very close at the crank gear 3 teeth over from the keyway, sometimes the mark is way down and difficult to see.