What year is my engine?

[Cadillac Bill]

What year is my engine?

I also know a link or place where I can find my own year by number. Thanks

593659

[stevests]

Looks to be October of 1914 - should be a "casting" date just to the right on the number boss.

[Russ Furstnow]

Based upon the shape and size of the serial number stamp pad, I would say that your engine is a replacement block that has been stamped with a 1914 serial number. The shape of the pad indicates that it is a 1924-27 block. There will not be a casting date on your engine block as seen in the photo. Also note that the shape and size of the stamping pad in the photo is totally different from your engine. I hope this helps.
Russ Furstnow
Chief Judge, MTFCI

[Cadillac Bill]

My question relates to several aspects? The car is stated as a 1913 Speedster. I understand that many, if not most Model Ts were upgraded. So could I assume that a 1913 Model T could still be judged, with a 1924-27 block would still be "correct" in a 1913?

Second, If I needed to do mechanical work on this engine, would possibly find out, by going inside the engine to find parts that would work? Are there common elements in a range of years? If I need piston rings, would I be able to measure the pistons, for instance?

Thirdly, could I enter a concourse with a "1913 Speedster" or would I lose points on this engine block?

Here are some overall pictures of the engine block.

[Cadillac Bill]

Additional info on my car. It has, KC Warford aux trans, Ruckstell axle, 12v system, electric starter, McLaren Wheels, Rocky Mountain brakes, Livingston radiator, Distributor, Fox smooth fatman steering wheel and more.

Since most Model Ts have been upgraded, what defines a particular year? Is there a frame number or defining clues that make it a year for judging?

I am asking what would add or detract points in judging?

[Russ Furstnow]

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The Model T Ford Club International (MTFCI) has a specific "Speedster" class for judging. The class adds points for every modification rather than deduct points for speed related parts that are not correct or not "original." The only thing that will get deductions are modern parts, such as disc brakes. The serial number stamped in the block can be used to date the car, but since the speedeter is a modified car, the number is not important for judging. All of the information regarding MTFCI Judging can be found in the MTFCI Judging Guidelines and Restoration Handbook.

The MTFCI holds a show at its annual tour which take place the third week in July, and the venue/location changes each year. The show is great fun and speedsters are a special group of cars that are entered.

I hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow

[rotorwrench]

Ford Motor Company didn't manufacture speedsters. The runabouts are as close as they got to that. The speedsters have always been in a category of modified cars that are more like period race cars than manufactured cars. Genuine racing pieces from the model T period are getting more scarce all the time. Period wire wheels are generally in poor condition if you can find them. It takes deep pockets to restore some of the old period items that are out there due to all the water under the bridge. Folks have been resurrecting old model Ts that are missing most of the sheet metal they came with due to the ravages of time. The abbreviated make up of a speedster makes them simple to build and maintain. A cottage industry has been around for some time to cater to building these cars.

The bodies and wood spoke wheels may rot away but the heavier parts of the model T have survived over a century for many of them. With the 1923 model reaching the century mark and the 1927 models only a few years away, it's a testament to the longevity of these old Fords. As far as serial numbered frames go, Ford didn't start stamping the frames till very late in the production of the model T. I believe it was late in 1925 when they started that practice. The engine number was it for most model Ts.

[Cadillac Bill]

Thank you all, especially Ruff F. I will follow up on this.

But my question still remains. For instance I have, also, a 1914 Model T Touring car. I have not checked engine, etc. But how could it be considered as a "1914 Model T?" Is it the frame? But apparently the frames were not numbered untll about mid 1920s. Sure it has a brass radiator, but I can buy them.

How can any Model T car be absolutely a certain vintage?

Also see my 1926 Model T Pickup. Could it have been a Runabout with a PU Bed? How could it be a 1926? Well it has the larger brake drums.

Still enquiring.

Bill

"You can dissect a Model T, but you can't kill it" Hey, I may use this as my signature!

[Russ Furstnow]

Bill,
The serial number (VIN) stamped into the engine block determines the year of the car. There are books available that list VIN numbers by the month and year that the engine was produced. These books also show physical features that identify the year of the car. Cars that have had the engine changed can create confusion when trying to identify the year of the car.
I hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow

[Cadillac Bill]

Russ, help me out, here. It appears that Ford made engines separately from the frames. Then the engines were installed in frames making a complete car. But sometimes the engine might fail and a new engine was installed in an older frame.

Seems to me that trying to identify the year of a particular car by the VIN / Serial number on the block would be uncertain. It further appears that the earlier *than 1926* frames were not stamped by numbers.

Later Model T cars have been updated and sometimes called "salad" as parts from different cars were put together "hodgepodge assembly."

I am very much willing to learn. I am very new in understanding Model T cars. It seems to me that I should focus on the parts I have before me and what other needed parts integrate.

I apparently have a 1914/1915 block. I should be looking at what parts are appropriate if needed.

I bought a 1913 Speedster and people have been telling me that it is not a 1913, perhaps it has a 1914 block. Now there may be some frame modifications that could have been updated? And furthermore since Ford did not make speedsters, who knows and what hands and what periods contributed?

I am not trying to argue, just willing to learn.

In conclusion, Model T cars are very mysterious, unique, cars and have a group of people with various opinions that stray into almost metaphysical realms! Hey, I am one of these!

I have other speedsters. For instance I have a 1913 Marmon Speedster 48B built by Marmon, 145 inch wheelbase! The only speedster 48B built in 1913, two more were built in 1914. No more made. Mine has vin numbers on the engine, the frame and other places, so sure this is a 1913 Marmon 48B.

[redmodelt]

Aside from the engine, the body style could/should indicate what year or years the car would fall in. Up till about 1915 the bodies had yearly changes, after 1915 it was more in the detail then actual body restyle. For example, 1915 through 1923 touring bodies look about the same, then there was 1924/25 and 1926/27.
Re mechanical parts, most were made so they could be used on any year. For example, the 1927 pistons could be used in say a 1910.
If you want to learn more about the changes, a good book would be, The Car That Changed the World by Bruce W McCalley.
Sorry to maybe say this, while it looks to be a nice speedster, what you have is a recent creation, not of any historically significant. For any showing/judging, it would need to be entered that way.
Trying to backdate to be a 1913, would more than likely cost more than the car is worth. From the look of the photos would require pretty much everything under the sheet metal (looks to be reproduction) to be replaced to be close to 1913 and you would end up right where you are now, a modern creation.
Enjoy the car as it is for what it is.

[rotorwrench]

The fact that many model Ts shared a lot of the same parts, makes it difficult to nail down a specific year by characteristics. Some model Ts had the same characteristics for several production years. Characteristics can be used to get a general range of production for the most part. Brass cars of 1916 and earlier are discernible from 1917 through the early twenties cars but there are a lot of subtle characteristics that can narrow this down quite a bit. The 1926 and 27 cars are also very similar but there were enough differences to get a clearer idea of which is which. Ford was always changing things even if those changes weren't all that noticable.

I still don't know anywhere near all the differences but there is a lot of information available to help a person gain the knowledge needed to better ID things from body parts to general chassis parts. Most model T folks don't worry about it too much unless they are trying to be fully authentic in a restoration of a particular year model and body style. Books are available for identification of model T parts so that's a good place to start.

[Cadillac Bill]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Aside from the engine, the body style could/should indicate what year or years the car would fall in. Up till about 1915 the bodies had yearly changes, after 1915 it was more in the detail then actual body restyle. For example, 1915 through 1923 touring bodies look about the same, then there was 1924/25 and 1926/27.
Re mechanical parts, most were made so they could be used on any year. For example, the 1927 pistons could be used in say a 1910.
If you want to learn more about the changes, a good book would be, The Car That Changed the World by Bruce W McCalley.
Sorry to maybe say this, while it looks to be a nice speedster, what you have is a recent creation, not of any historically significant. For any showing/judging, it would need to be entered that way.
Trying to backdate to be a 1913, would more than likely cost more than the car is worth. From the look of the photos would require pretty much everything under the sheet metal (looks to be reproduction) to be replaced to be close to 1913 and you would end up right where you are now, a modern creation.
Enjoy the car as it is for what it is.

You are possibly correct. Please point out what is under the sheet metal being repops? I can't tell. Blanket statement doesn't help me learn. Everything was cleaned and powder coated. I am here to learn (certainly not to argue!) so I don't make repeat mistakes.

It has a lot of new parts, but I bought the car cheap, and it runs great. I was a little put off by it being so sanitary! I better like cars that have some patina!

From your other posts you seem knowledgeable I do ask your opinion? I love to learn!

Here is my '23 Depot Hack. It has an original Martin Perry body. 1914 Touring, 1927 Speedster. Came with its own trailer! One of our brass cars 1913 Marmon 48B Speedster now at the Savoy Automotive Museum "Fast Brass" Exhibit

[redmodelt]

As I suggested if you want to learn about the changes, get a copy of the book I suggested. There are pages and pages of information published over the years and would take hours to go over all the nuances of what makes a 1913 and are different then a 1912 or 1914 for example. People have spent a good part of a lifetime learning this stuff and new information is still coming to light.
Lang's sells a lot of the sheet metal and other add on parts to build a speedster.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/NO.800F.aspx
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3060DE.aspx
https://www.modeltford.com/model-t-p...ipment/?pp=100
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3923LV.aspx
Suggest asking specific questions such as your engine question. Another good source that might be of help is the Speedster Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/groups/modeltspeedster/
Add one bit of information, the rearend is 1926/27 big drum along with the reproduction AC/Rocky Mtn brakes.

[Cadillac Bill]

Thank you, Red. The seller sent me a copy of the book, it came with my car that you mentioned and I am going through it I also appreciate your links. Did no know Facebook had a Speedster page. With the rest, I have closed a thread I had on another forum with:

"My original question as to who built my car, there is no known answer. I asked the dealer and he bought it at an auction. There was no documentation. Case closed. He bought it as what it is. I bought it from him. Case closed.

Is it a true representation of a 1913 Model T Speedster? There never was a 1913 Speedster made by Ford. Speedsters were built by people from more or less Ford parts along with outside manufacturers. Parts were replaced and upgraded over the last century.

So, to myself, I am calling it a 1913 Model T Speedster. It came with 1913 on it's Livingston VEE radiator. Since there are no certain answers, I am keeping it.

In the common vulgarity, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and many people have more than one!

Case closed. I am going for a drive in my very new Speedster!"

[redmodelt]

Fantastic! Have loads of fun doing so!

[Cadillac Bill]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Fantastic! Have loads of fun do so!

Thanks, Fun is what this is all about!